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THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 21 Sep 2022, 09:35:22

It sounds to me as if France has escaped from the "leadership" of the Anti-Nuclear movement in their own government and is reasserting themselves for the first time in well over a decade on the issue. France largely decarbonized itself in the 1975-85 period and the hard anti-nuclear crowd does not want to grant them any credit for decarbonizing without becoming fully dependent on intermittent weather driven renewables. Link below quote.
EXCLUSIVE: France urges Brussels to label nuclear-produced hydrogen 'green'

French Energy Minister Agnès Pannier-Runacher is trying to get EU Energy Commissioner Kadri Simson to include nuclear among energy sources for the production of so-called “green” hydrogen, according to a letter seen by EURACTIV France.

In May, the European Union unveiled its REPowerEU programme to rapidly reduce dependence on Russian fossil fuels and speed up the green transition.

The targets listed in the programme include producing 10 million tonnes of green hydrogen by 2030 and importing 10 million tonnes from third countries that respect the same environmental and technological standards.

But according to the French minister, the current rules leave little room for the production of green hydrogen from “low-carbon” electricity, mostly nuclear power.

Given “the absolute priority of the next decade for hydrogen, […] the only important issue is the carbon content of the hydrogen produced and not the production vector,” Pannier-Runacher wrote to the European Commissioner.

This puts “the achievement of our common goals at risk,” she warned.

In her letter, Pannier-Runacher also took aim at the so-called principle of ‘additionality’, which allows renewable hydrogen to be labelled “green” as long as it is produced from electricity mixes containing more than 90% of renewables.

It “does not apply well to countries with an electricity mix that is already largely decarbonised, where the supply of electricity by the grid must be treated on an equal footing with direct supplies through contracts with renewable sources,” Pannier-Runacher wrote.

“Largely decarbonised” mixes like the French mix, which only produces 80 gCO2/MWh due to its heavy reliance on nuclear power, should also be exempted, according to the French minister.

Late on Friday 20 May, the European Commission published rules for calling transport fuels of non-biological origin, including hydrogen, renewable. The criteria is strict, despite industry lobbying, write Corinna Klessmann, Felix von Blücher, and Malte Gephart.
Respecting EU minimum standards

Another concern noted in the letter is the EU’s hydrogen import strategy, which according to the French government, poses a risk of technology spill-over and imports of hydrogen that do not comply with EU production standards.

“The development of carbon-free hydrogen must be an opportunity to strengthen our energy sovereignty: the use of imports must be on an equal playing field with European production,” Pannier-Runacher insists.

Another bone of contention is the fact that, under the EU’s draft renewable energy directive, public money cannot help fund electricity generation for the production of green hydrogen. “This seems counterproductive with regard to the climate emergency and could be difficult to implement, given the different forms public support can take,” Pannier-Runacher warned.

Not including low-carbon hydrogen in the renewable energy directive would be “an extremely degraded solution” for France, she added. “Failing this, if low-carbon hydrogen does not obtain the possibility of contributing to the objectives of the directive, [….], it would be appropriate to limit the discrimination of low-carbon technologies other than renewable energies,” the letter adds.

The French minister thus called on the Commission to leave it up to the member states to introduce low-carbon energies on the same level as renewable energies in the mix, as long as this contributes to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.

France riding solo

The pro-nuclear position of the French when it comes to green hydrogen is not entirely shared by the industry.

Jorgo Chatzimarkakis, CEO of Hydrogen Europe, which represents the interests of the industry in 25 EU countries, said the letter is proof that France is “going solo” on nuclear and putting itself in a “dangerous insular position”.

Speaking to EURACTIV Friday (16 september), he denounced France for being stubborn by not making itself “free for the flow of hydrogen, for example from Spain to Germany”.

Industry leaders like Chatzimarkakis are not welcoming France’s current opposition to the MidCat pipeline, which should connect France and Spain but has been kept on hold since 2019. French President Emmanuel Macron recently said that he would consider resuming construction if he were convinced of the pipeline’s usefulness.

France is “not credible for the moment”, the CEO said.


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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 21 Sep 2022, 23:28:58

Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 22 Sep 2022, 13:47:09

Shaved Monkey wrote:Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html

Yes that is because diesel is twice as high in price as it should be due to Biden's war on fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel cells may one day become a working solution but unless the hydrogen is generated by nuclear of solar power it will not do anything to save the climate.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 25 Sep 2022, 01:29:57

vtsnowedin wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:Hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough is ‘more efficient than diesel engines’

Loop Energy CEO says new cell is ‘another sign to the transport industry that the transition away from fossil fuels must happen now’

Canada-based Loop Energy unveiled its new hydrogen fuel cell at the IAA Transportation 2022 conference in Germany this week, saying it marks “a milestone” for the transport industry’s transition to clean energies.

At current fuel price levels, a commercial truck equipped with the S1200 hydrogen fuel cell could travel 179km (111 miles) with $100 worth of fuel, compared to 175km for a diesel truck with the same amount of fuel.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/hydr ... 71960.html

Yes that is because diesel is twice as high in price as it should be due to Biden's war on fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel cells may one day become a working solution but unless the hydrogen is generated by nuclear of solar power it will not do anything to save the climate.

Green Hydrogen (mainly solar some wind) is the long term plan for Australia
Tapping into the existing gas pipelines and supplying Asia ..China Japan Korea and Singapore
Big plants ready to be built in the North East and North West where the Gas export industry already has the infrastrucuture
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 25 Sep 2022, 06:48:43

Anyone know how much electricity it takes to separate enough hydrogen to equal the energy content of a gallon of diesel?
I remember doing the H-tube experiment in chemistry class back in 1972 but if I ever mastered the math beyond getting twice as much hydrogen volume then the oxygen side of the tube I have forgotten it and we did not even measure the drain on the DC battery used.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 28 Sep 2022, 23:32:58

I think we need to look at hydrogen in the similar way we look at at an aluminium smelter.

You put in a smelter on the end of a coal fired power plant,when people need power you slow down the smelting when there's plenty of power you crank it up..... basically because its hard to speed up or slow down a power plant.
Hydrogen will work the same way attached to the end of a few solar and wind farms,you make it and store it when you have excess power.
Seems in Australia and Im sure other parts are similarish, we need more power when people come home from work on a hot day they turn on the AC and the stove to cook dinner and the TV all at once.
The sun is going down the wind may not be blowing
Thats the time to burn some hydrogen or release the storage dams or turn on the batteries...and stop smelting Aluminium
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 29 Sep 2022, 19:03:39

I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 02:16:18

vtsnowedin wrote:I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.

In Australia its brown coal in Victoria and Black Coal in Qld
They did deals for supper cheap excess power from over sized coal fired plants built for 40 or 50 year time frames

Hydrogen production will be a value added addition to having to require a greater than needed supply of renewables for worst case scenarios. (multiple hot evenings).
If green hydrogen becomes "real/viable" in its own right then more ways of producing it will be explored.

With Qld building the worlds largest pumped hydro to store wind/solar power,the plan is also to convert old coal fired plants to hydrogen the biggest one is the major one with the aluminium smelter attached

Lots of talk about green steel too...using hydrogen

Fortescue Metals Group has become one of the first of Australia’s major industrial operators to commit to fully decarbonise its operations and supply chains, including a shift to coal-free steel processing and hydrogen-fuelled shipping.

In a statement released to the ASX on Tuesday, the iron ore giant said it would adopt a net zero target for its scope-3 emissions, meaning the company would look to slash emissions not just from its own operations, but also the embedded emissions in the products it sells to customers.

Fortescue is one of the world’s largest producers of iron ore and crude steel products – and the third largest in Australia – making it one of Australia’s largest coal users.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/iron-ore-gi ... ro-target/
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 08:37:45

I've been reading good things about fuel cells working for buses and long haul trucks. In the markets, I am investing in Ballard Power. I'm adding to it a little at a time, so as to take advantage of cheap prices to build my position. The risk of making this investment is somewhat ameliorated by the potential. If it works, the investment is likely to multiply many times over. It could go wrong. Fuel cells might not work out, that is the risk. That's also why I diversify.
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Re: THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 01 Oct 2022, 14:00:23

Shaved Monkey wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:I may be a bit behind the times here but my understanding of the aluminum production process uses mostly cheap Hydro electric power where it is in surplus. So aluminum ore (bauxite)is shipped from the mines in south America to Canada for refining or smelting if you prefer. Having another heat source do the work on a whim of the weather system would probably not be competitive and you would never get the capital to set it up.

In Australia its brown coal in Victoria and Black Coal in Qld
They did deals for supper cheap excess power from over sized coal fired plants built for 40 or 50 year time frames

Hydrogen production will be a value added addition to having to require a greater than needed supply of renewables for worst case scenarios. (multiple hot evenings).
If green hydrogen becomes "real/viable" in its own right then more ways of producing it will be explored.

With Qld building the worlds largest pumped hydro to store wind/solar power,the plan is also to convert old coal fired plants to hydrogen the biggest one is the major one with the aluminium smelter attached

Lots of talk about green steel too...using hydrogen

Fortescue Metals Group has become one of the first of Australia’s major industrial operators to commit to fully decarbonise its operations and supply chains, including a shift to coal-free steel processing and hydrogen-fuelled shipping.

In a statement released to the ASX on Tuesday, the iron ore giant said it would adopt a net zero target for its scope-3 emissions, meaning the company would look to slash emissions not just from its own operations, but also the embedded emissions in the products it sells to customers.

Fortescue is one of the world’s largest producers of iron ore and crude steel products – and the third largest in Australia – making it one of Australia’s largest coal users.

https://reneweconomy.com.au/iron-ore-gi ... ro-target/

Steel without carbon is just pig iron and not useful. Perhaps you are referring to the smokestack emissions and not the actual composition of the finished product?
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