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THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 19 Jun 2022, 10:07:48

mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: The farm boys can do the math.

Never in my 35 years of car ownership (owning a few very old cars) I had to rebuild a starter.


Same here.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 19 Jun 2022, 10:18:17

AdamB wrote:
mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: The farm boys can do the math.

Never in my 35 years of car ownership (owning a few very old cars) I had to rebuild a starter.


Same here.
A lot of people trade often enough for that to be the case but those last owners that wear a vehicle out to the end find things like starters, alternators and the various pumps and compressors running off the belts break down at annoying intervals.
With the advent of computer controlled fuel injection the cranking time for each start is reduced so they do last longer then they used to.
When you get to the point that every month you support your local mechanic to the tune of a car payment it is time to trade.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 22 Jun 2022, 15:44:17

Paid $5.059 this morning in NW Ohio then five miles down the road saw $4.899! Arghhh!
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 22 Jun 2022, 15:55:24

Tanada wrote:Paid $5.059 this morning in NW Ohio then five miles down the road saw $4.899! Arghhh!

Believe me "I feel your pain"!
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 22 Jun 2022, 23:32:26

Joe Biden says he want to cut the Federal gas tax (18 cents a gallon) to help people out with the price of gasoline.

Making gas 18 cents cheaper will help a little bit, but what about the extra $2.50 per gallon that gas prices have gone up on Biden's watch?

Apparently Joe is OK with that.

And so why cut the gas tax? Because its a political gimmick.

Barack Obama in 2008 slammed the idea of a proposed gas tax holiday. Obama said "This isn't a real solution. It's a political stunt. This is what Washington does whenever there's a big problem. Politicians pretend they're looking out for you but they're just looking out for their poll numbers."

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Cutting gas taxes "isn't a real solution. It's a political stunt. This is what Washington does whenever there's a big problem. Politicians pretend they're looking out for you but they're just looking out for their poll numbers."


Cheers!
250 million thousand people have died of covid---Joe Biden
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama

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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby C8 » Thu 23 Jun 2022, 10:50:44

Biden's Gas Tax Suspension Proposal Falls Flat In Congress
By Charles Kennedy - Jun 23, 2022, 8:30 AM CDT

Biden's four point plan asks legislators to suspend the federal tax on gasoline and diesel.
Congress has expressed a lack of enthusiasm for any such gas tax holiday.
Another criticism of the gas tax holiday is that it would strip funds out of the Highway Trust Fund.


President Biden asked Congress on Wednesday to lift the federal fuel tax for three months in a bid to reduce excessively high prices at the pump, but resistance in Congress—even from the President's own party—could stymie the idea altogether.

In a four-point plan, Biden said told legislators to consider suspending the $0.24 federal tax per gallon of diesel and the $0.18 per gallon tax on gasoline for 90 days and recommended that states also lift their state taxes on fuels.

The President also called on oil companies to use their profits to boost refining capacity and on fuel retailers to pass on the reduction in prices resulting from the potential lifting of federal taxes to customers.

"I fully understand that a gas tax holiday alone is not going to fix the problem but it will provide families some immediate relief, just a little bit of breathing room, as we continue working on bringing down prices for the long haul," Biden said, as quoted by Reuters.

But Congress has expressed a lack of enthusiasm for any such gas tax holiday.

"We will see where the consensus lies on a path forward for the President's proposal in the House and the Senate," House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in what was interpreted as a rare lack of endorsement for the President's proposal.

Other Democratic lawmakers—including Speaker Pelosi—suggested that the gas tax savings could be pocketed by oil companies rather than the consumer.

Yet another criticism of the gas tax holiday is that it would strip funds out of the Highway Trust Fund that is earmarked for maintaining roads, bridges, and other infrastructure.

The administration is blaming the high fuel prices on Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the windfall profits of oil companies resulting from the crude oil price rally, itself a result of an imbalance between supply and demand.

U.S. refining capacity has shed more than 1 million bpd over the past two years, according to the Energy Information Administration, but, according to federal data cited by Seeking Alpha, the decline has been going on for much longer.

Since 1990, the data shows, some 86 refineries have been shut down in the U.S., translating in the loss of more than 5 million bpd in capacity.

U.S. oil producers, meanwhile, have been reluctant to boost production, prioritizing instead the return of cash to shareholders.

By Charles Kennedy for Oilprice.com

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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 23 Jun 2022, 11:12:21

In the US it used to be quite a bit of oil was imported then refined and exported using our larger refining capacity profitably. I expect the regulatory environment has deteriorated to the point that some new refineries in countries with less regulation can now undercut the US refiners so the crude oil is getting diverted to them. To the big corporations that have facilities in several countries that becomes of balancing our labor and regulation cost against very cheap labor and a few bribes in some backwater that happens to be near an oil field or major sea lanes.
I wonder if we will get to the point we have to ship out some or our crude oil to get it refined for our domestic market.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 12:02:50

$4.70/gal locally. Some stations close to $5/gal for regular unleaded but haven't seen it yet.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 14:01:10

Gas is holding steady at about $4.85 while we drain our strategic reserve. Once they get that down to where even they will not go any lower we will see what the real price of fuel is.
Expect that to hit sometime just after the November midterm elections as they will not want it on peoples minds as they vote. Then after the Red wave the Democrats will blame the new GOP majority for the price spike.
Dose that sound as if I am cynical? Yes.! But does that make me wrong? Time will tell.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby Doly » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 14:42:43

Barack Obama in 2008 slammed the idea of a proposed gas tax holiday.


Of course he did, because gas taxes in the US are so low. So there's almost no room to cushion any fluctuations in the price of oil by playing around with the tax. In Europe, that has high gas taxes since the seventies, it's very common to use that trick. The taxes are high enough to even out fluctuations easily. In the US there is only one bullet in the gas tax revolver, and that's all you got, so you try not to shoot unless you absolutely have to. The fact that Biden shot it shows how desperate he thinks the situation is.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 14:57:46

The gas tax is a user tax which is to say the more you use it the more you pay. That makes it the best form of tax their is, if any form of tax could be called best.
The "low" tax rates in the USA would be enough to maintain the highway system at a high rate or even allow for steady improvement if politics, pork barrel projects and bureaucratic inefficiency did not drain away significant amounts of the funds.
For example many states raid the funds to support the State Police and court system even though traffic enforcement is a small part of what the legal system does. And other funds are skimmed off to support railroads, mass transit and airports.
And then you have the political boondoggle projects like the Boston big dig where 100 million dollar "mistakes" and frauds go on for decades.
To reform it I think we need to abolish the federal tax and let the states raise their tax by that amount or close to it (as they choose) and let them decide how to spend it without any interference from a Federal Highway administration or especially from congress.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 18:30:52

vtsnowedin wrote:Gas is holding steady at about $4.85 while we drain our strategic reserve. Once they get that down to where even they will not go any lower we will see what the real price of fuel is.


At the rate they are going though, there is a good chance the recession will be here by then, and mitigate demand. I remember when the late 2008 timeframe hit, and I was filling up my car for less than I filled up my motorcycle 6 months earlier. That was pretty wild.

Nowadays, I don't use gasoline much unless I want to, and considering the price of gas, and how cheap EVing is, I don't much want to.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 19:07:54

Well the G-7 leaders are beginning to realize that Putin is making out like a bandit by selling his oil to China and India at last years prices while the West buys oil if they can find it at war time prices. So who is getting hurt other then the Ukrainians on the front lines or in the shopping malls?
We can expect gas prices to move higher after the midterm elections and then if the Democrats get the message and change energy policy it will still take months to get US production up. After all it took eighteen months to squash it so it will probably take eighteen months or more to restore it. .
Of course the G-7 leaders could come to the conclusion that ending the war in Ukraine quickly and decisive in Ukraine's favor would solve many of the problems they now face.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 19:58:31

vtsnowedin wrote: We can expect gas prices to move higher after the midterm elections and then if the Democrats get the message and change energy policy......


...or companies decide to go bonkers borrowing to grow rather than paying higher dividends and paying down debt......because there are no policies stopping them from drilling as much as they'd like right now except for their own.....
vtsnowedin wrote:... it will still take months to get US production up.


It has been going up since the Trump administration, and is expected to keep rising under current policies and expected economic factors. Are you under the impression that it hasn't been because of those hallucinated policies you keep coming up with?

Image

vtssnowedin wrote:After all it took eighteen months to squash it so it will probably take eighteen months or more to restore it. .

Trump certainly squashed it, but that was Covid mismanagement, not the Democans. Chart provided to prove...you know...you keep saying stuff that ain't so.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby C8 » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 22:36:12

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Gas is holding steady at about $4.85 while we drain our strategic reserve. Once they get that down to where even they will not go any lower we will see what the real price of fuel is.


At the rate they are going though, there is a good chance the recession will be here by then, and mitigate demand. I remember when the late 2008 timeframe hit, and I was filling up my car for less than I filled up my motorcycle 6 months earlier. That was pretty wild.

Nowadays, I don't use gasoline much unless I want to, and considering the price of gas, and how cheap EVing is, I don't much want to.


Do you own an EV?
Is it a hybrid?
How much was it after rebates?
How much does it cost per mile to drive?
Do you charge at home?
How long does it take to charge at home if mostly drained?
Does it show the batteries losing their ability to charge over time?
If so, how fast do they lose this ability?
What do you like about it?
What don't you like about it?

It's a lot of questions, I know :|
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby C8 » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 23:01:06

NEW MPG RULE WILL EXACERBATE EXISTING CAR SHORTAGE

By Tim Benson | June 22, 2022

In April, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) announced the new Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards that automobile manufacturers must adhere to through 2026. Unfortunately, the new rule is likely to lead to a shortage of new gasoline-powered cars in the coming years while massively hiking the price of battery-powered electric vehicles (EV) as well as cars powered by internal combustion engines (ICE).

In 1975, CAFE standards were created by the Energy Policy Conservation Act in response to the oil embargo imposed by the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries in 1973. CAFE imposes fines on car and truck manufacturers if they fail to achieve minimum targets for sales-weighted average fuel economy, which is expressed in miles per gallon (mpg).

NHTSA’s new rule requires a massive 40 percent increase in mpg from now to 2026. Fuel efficiency must rise 8 percent in 2024 and 2025 model year automobiles, and 10 percent in 2026 model year automobiles, to a 49-mpg car and truck fleet average. Historically, the most manufacturers have been able to increase mpg year-over-year is about 3 percent. So, surging average mpg by a whopping 10 percent is a tall order.

Adding insult to injury, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has separately set carbon dioxide (CO2) emission limits on automobile fleets. By 2026, cars will have to produce an average of 132 grams of CO2 per mile (g/mile) and light trucks an average of 187 g/mile for a fleet average of 161 g/mile, a 28 percent decrease from 2022. If vehicles do not meet this standard, EPA will not certify them for sale.

The challenge with this ruling is no cars with an internal combustion engine, that is, every automobile that runs on gasoline, currently emit CO2 at this extremely low level. The lowest-emitting car is the 2022 Toyota Prius Eco at 159 g/mile. Trucks like the Ford F-150, Dodge Ram, and the Chevrolet Silverado, the three most popular automobiles in the country in terms of sales, emit 407 to 550 g/mile, depending on engine size.

Meeting these new NHTSA and EPA standards so quickly will require manufacturers to dramatically increase expenditures on research and development, which will increase the price of new ICE-powered vehicles and force manufacturers to build an extensive portfolio of EV models.

Another factor that will exacerbate this shortage is the waiver provided to California to make the Golden State exempt from Section 209 of the Clean Air Act, which prohibits any state from adopting emissions standards more stringent than the federal standard. California’s Advanced Clean Cars Program requires that 35 percent of car sales in the state must be EV sales by 2026, rising to 50 percent of all sales in 2030. What’s more, 16 states and the District of Columbia have opted in to California’s program.

NHTSA, EPA, and California are essentially pushing manufacturers to eliminate ICE-vehicle production in favor of EVs. Naturally, this will accelerate the demand for commodities required to manufacture car batteries, which will increase the cost of EVs. Ford recently announced that due to rising material costs, the Mach E EV costs $25,000 more to manufacture than the equivalent sized gasoline-powered Edge. Nationally, the average price of EVs is currently more than $15,000 higher than the cost of gasoline-powered vehicles, and the gap is widening.

Moreover, we are likely looking at a shortage of ICE-powered vehicles, as there will be few models that meet the new emissions requirements. Vehicle affordability will be made worse with rising interest rates. With a smaller volume of sales, manufacturers will be forced to increase prices on both EVs and gasoline-powered vehicles. Customers priced out of the market will keep their older, less-safe vehicles that have higher emissions and consume more fuel. Of course, the lack of new vehicles will likely intensify the shortage of used vehicles, which has led to soaring prices for used vehicles in recent months.

The law of unintended consequences almost always follows even the best-intentioned law or regulation, and that will certainly be the case here. Few people have any concept of what the total impact of these regulations will be, though we will all certainly find out soon. My advice is simple: prepare to pay a whole lot more for a new car in the coming years, if you’re able to find one.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 28 Jun 2022, 23:42:38

C8 wrote:
AdamB wrote:Nowadays, I don't use gasoline much unless I want to, and considering the price of gas, and how cheap EVing is, I don't much want to.


Do you own an EV?
Is it a hybrid?


I own 2. What good peak oil prepper would do otherwise? :)

C8 wrote:How much was it after rebates?


I bought them both used. No rebates or subsidies. The folks who bought them new got those.

C8 wrote:How much does it cost per mile to drive?
Do you charge at home?
How long does it take to charge at home if mostly drained?


Excluding insurance and registration that all cars require, I believe my fuel costs (the part that matters in our current expensive liquid fuels world), on the only EV is something like 2.3 cents per mile, and the one with the range extender is use dependent. If I use it exclusively as an EV, its costs are also 2.3 cents/mile, if I use it in mixed ICE/EV mode on the highway, at current fuel costs it is 11 cents/mile. The college kid car is full ICE, and just for comparison, is about 20 cents/mile.

The wife charges whichever of the EVs she is driving at work about half the time, the other half at home. Charging at work is free, the 2.3 cents/mile is my home charging cost. The EV/ICE machine takes about 5 or 6 hours on house current, the EV takes 15 or so, far less charging at her work.

C8 wrote:Does it show the batteries losing their ability to charge over time?
If so, how fast do they lose this ability?


The Leaf has lost 1 bar of 12 in 50K miles and 7 years, and that 1 bar in 12 was lost before I bought it. It hasn't dropped at all under my battery maintenance regime. I estimate the mixed EV/ICE machine to have lost 20% of its original SOC in 8 years and 170K miles or so.

C8 wrote:What do you like about it?
What don't you like about it?

It's a lot of questions, I know :|


The wife, when asked these questions by her Tesla driving boss, answers it this way, "It (the EV) is the most horrifyingly utilitarian car I've ever owned." She hates it...but can't say a bad thing about it. I think that describes the EV pretty well. The EV/ICE mixed machine is great. Want to EV? You can do it for 6 months before putting 8 gallons of gasoline in it after like 2500 miles. Not bad. When spanning the continent, it's worst tank ever as an all ICE machine was 33 mpg, its best was 57 mpg. It usually runs 40+ no trouble. It is a nice car, with all the amenities, with one thing I don't like about it, and it is part of the EV/ICE compromise. In order to get an ICE machine and full on EV into a single chassis, I lost most of the trunk for a battery. So if I travel in it, I lack the room to carry more than 2 people, all their gear occupying the back seat because it won't fit in the trunk.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby C8 » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 13:24:48

Thanks Adam, that was a pretty complete set of answers. I don't drive much so an EV doesn't make much sense to me, even at today's prices I only go 5 miles per day average (less than 2000 miles per year).

But you are clearly the future and so I am interested. That 15 hours you mention to charge at home seems like a long time though. I'm not sure if everyone can live with that.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 13:42:31

There is a problem, the use patterns are very different.

My life style is in flux so I am not sure what the future will bring. For the last 35 years I have driven some kind of enclosed work vehicle, Ford Tarsus wagon or SUV. I tend to do a lot of things, projects, and need some space to hail stuff around. 2x4’s and cement, welders, and plywood and steel are common. Diesel engines and refrigerators not unknown. This spring I had to hire a small trailer to move a diesel engine. I could NOT do it in Philadelphia, I had to ho into the burbs to find one.

After many decades of FWD J have switched to 4WD. I don’t need it often but i do need it. Our PA cabin, which is now our residence, really requires 4 WD and even then I sometimes have to get out and shovel. Sometime it is needed just to get up the hill to the cabin.

And then I hauled a bunch of stone for a walkway, and broke a spring doing it.

Then in our Canada cabin I have similar issues. Kick a lot of stone just getting to the drive on a good day. 40 miles to a super market or cup o coffee. Of course the trip is over 1,500 miles on way, not unusual for us to do 800 miles in a leg.

Hard to see a EV or hybrid fitting those roles.

Clearly it is different for many, but I am a builder or handy man or what ever.
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Re: THE Gasoline Price Thread 2013-2022

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 29 Jun 2022, 14:58:31

C8 wrote:Thanks Adam, that was a pretty complete set of answers. I don't drive much so an EV doesn't make much sense to me, even at today's prices I only go 5 miles per day average (less than 2000 miles per year).


Short trips are where an EV is perfect. You don't really need a 100+ miles range (and can therefore buy older and used) if all you really want is the equivalent of a golf cart. With A/C, airbags and the ability to do 80 mph on the expressway between here and there. If you don't cage much than you could drive a tank around, and just because it doesn't travel much distance, it could still be affordable.

C8 wrote:But you are clearly the future and so I am interested. That 15 hours you mention to charge at home seems like a long time though. I'm not sure if everyone can live with that.


That time is for using household current. And most EV owners don't live with it, they put in a dedicated circuit and charge at something like at least 6 kW for a Level 2 charger, far more if you put a Tesla charger in your garage. That's what the wife's boss has done, and I read a stat somewhere that says 80% of all Tesla owners charge at home. Probably because if you can afford the car, getting a dedicated electrical setup for it is just chump change. To get a Level 2 capable charger in my garage would cost about $1500, and I just don't need fast charging.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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