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THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 13 Feb 2021, 15:39:03

Green technology and growth.

James McKenzie believes the UK government’s ambitious 10-point-plan for a “green industrial revolution” can deliver – if we put our collective minds to the problem
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 01 Mar 2022, 23:47:19

World’s Aging Big Dams Pose ‘Emerging Risk’: UN
By 2050, more than half the global population will live downstream from tens of thousands of large dams near or past their intended lifespan, according to a U.N. report released Friday.

PARIS (AFP) — By 2050, more than half the global population will live downstream from tens of thousands of large dams near or past their intended lifespan, according to a U.N. report released Friday.

Most of the world's nearly 59,000 big dams — constructed between 1930 and 1970 — were designed to last 50 to 100 years, according to research from the U.N. University's Institute for Water, Environment and Health.

"This is an emerging global risk that we are not yet paying attention to," co-author and Institute director Vladimir Smakhtin told AFP.

"In terms of dams at risk, the number is growing year by year, decade by decade."

A well-designed, constructed and maintained dam can easily remain functional for a century.

But many of the world's major dams fail on one or more of these criteria.

Dozens have suffered major damage or outright collapse over the last two decades in the United States, India, Brazil, Afghanistan and other countries, and the number of such failures could increase, the report warned.

Compounding the risk in ways that have yet to be fully measured is global warming.

"Because of climate change, extreme rainfall and flooding events are becoming more frequent," lead author Duminda Perera, a researcher at the University of Ottawa and McMaster University, said in an interview.

This not only increases the risk of reservoirs overflowing but also accelerates the build-up of sediment, which affects dam safety, reduces water storage capacity, and lowers energy production in hydroelectric dams.

'Catastrophic consequences'

In February 2017, the spillways of California's Oroville Dam — the tallest in the U.S. — were damaged during heavy rainfall, prompting the emergency evacuation of more than 180,000 people downstream.

In 2019, record flooding sparked concern that Mosul Dam, Iraq's largest, could fail.

Aging dams not only pose a greater risk to downstream populations, but also become less efficient at generating electricity, and far more expensive to maintain.

Because the number of large dams under construction or planned has dropped sharply since the 1960s and 1970s, these problems will multiply in coming years, the report showed.

"There won't be another dam-building revolution, so the average age of dams is getting older," said Perera.

"Due to new energy sources coming online — solar, wind — a lot of planned hydroelectric dams will probably not ever be built."

A global fleet of nearly 60,000 aging dams also highlights the challenge of dismantling — or "decommissioning" — those that are no longer safe or functional.

More than 150 years old

Several dozen have been torn down in the United States, but all of them small, Smakhtin said.

More than 90% of large dams — at least 15 meters from foundation to crest, or holding back no less than 3 million cubic meters of water — are located in only two dozen countries.

China alone is home to 40% of them, with another 15% in India, Japan and Korea combined. More than half will be older than 50 within a few years.

Another 16% of the world's dams are in the United States, more than 85% of them already operating at or past their life expectancy.

It would cost some $64 billion to refurbish them, according to one estimate.

In India, 64 big dams will be at least 150 years old by 2050. In North America and Asia, there are some 2,300 operational dams at least 100 years old.

Worldwide, there is about 7,500 cubic kilometers of water — enough to submerge most of Canada by a meter — stored behind large dams.


https://www.courthousenews.com/worlds-a ... g-risk-un/
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 09:40:12

Most dams a dubbed "Gravity dams" because their weight holds them in place. Concrete does not get lighter as it gets older so there is no expiration date for the concrete portion of the dam. Flood gates and power turbines do however wear out and need periodic replacement or repairs. Also erosion of spillways has to be repaired where it occurs but there is no need for wholesale replacements of the worlds large dams and that report is just alarmist crap.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 10:17:09

vtsnowedin wrote: Concrete does not get lighter as it gets older so there is no expiration date for the concrete portion of the dam


Isn't the problem of reinforced concrete that the steel rusts away leaving the concrete cracked and much weaker over time?

https://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-t ... 20reaction.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 10:30:19

mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Concrete does not get lighter as it gets older so there is no expiration date for the concrete portion of the dam


Isn't the problem of reinforced concrete that the steel rusts away leaving the concrete cracked and much weaker over time?

https://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-t ... 20reaction.

Unlike a road bridge that gets exposed to deicing salt and impact loads from trucks the rebars in a dam if it even has any are pretty much protected by the concrete cover and rust very slowly if at all.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby mousepad » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 11:14:53

vtsnowedin wrote:
mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Concrete does not get lighter as it gets older so there is no expiration date for the concrete portion of the dam


Isn't the problem of reinforced concrete that the steel rusts away leaving the concrete cracked and much weaker over time?

https://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-t ... 20reaction.

Unlike a road bridge that gets exposed to deicing salt and impact loads from trucks the rebars in a dam if it even has any are pretty much protected by the concrete cover and rust very slowly if at all.


Look, there's a whole study about dam safety and concrete.
https://www.usbr.gov/ssle/damsafety/Tec ... -03-05.pdf
Clear Creek Dam in Washington, which was breached, suffered from a variety of deterioration mechanisms and the concrete properties diminished


As always, things are probably more complicated than the layman would suspects.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 11:59:12

mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
mousepad wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Concrete does not get lighter as it gets older so there is no expiration date for the concrete portion of the dam


Isn't the problem of reinforced concrete that the steel rusts away leaving the concrete cracked and much weaker over time?

https://www.cement.org/learn/concrete-t ... 20reaction.

Unlike a road bridge that gets exposed to deicing salt and impact loads from trucks the rebars in a dam if it even has any are pretty much protected by the concrete cover and rust very slowly if at all.


Look, there's a whole study about dam safety and concrete.
https://www.usbr.gov/ssle/damsafety/Tec ... -03-05.pdf
Clear Creek Dam in Washington, which was breached, suffered from a variety of deterioration mechanisms and the concrete properties diminished


As always, things are probably more complicated than the layman would suspects.

Clear creek is a "Thin arch" dam built between 1915 and 1918. Not the best design to begin with.
I'm not exactly a layman as I did road and bridge construction inspection for forty years including a couple of small dam projects. I've tested more concrete deliveries then I care to remember.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 14:12:42

mousepad wrote:As always, things are probably more complicated than the layman would suspects.


Indeed.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 19:28:06

Duestche Welle Us reporting the German Energy Minister says the 3 remaining nukes are too far along in decommissioning to put back online. He wants to increase wind and solar so they are completely off fossil fuels by 2030 (or 2035?).

Neat trick, I am gonna watch how that goes.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Mar 2022, 20:39:26

Newfie wrote:Duestche Welle Us reporting the German Energy Minister says the 3 remaining nukes are too far along in decommissioning to put back online. He wants to increase wind and solar so they are completely off fossil fuels by 2030 (or 2035?).

Neat trick, I am gonna watch how that goes.

You have to wonder what process or activity of decommissioning short of the reactor core being pulled out and scraped can't be halted and reversed?
I suspect it is more a matter of wanting to do it or not that sets that stage.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 03 Mar 2022, 10:01:08

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:Duestche Welle Us reporting the German Energy Minister says the 3 remaining nukes are too far along in decommissioning to put back online. He wants to increase wind and solar so they are completely off fossil fuels by 2030 (or 2035?).

Neat trick, I am gonna watch how that goes.

You have to wonder what process or activity of decommissioning short of the reactor core being pulled out and scraped can't be halted and reversed?
I suspect it is more a matter of wanting to do it or not that sets that stage.


Remove the steam turbines and plumbing. Game ALMOST over. Found this out while paying attention to a coal plant being dismantled. Apparently the level of precision, the sheer size and cost, the plumbing involved in making it all work on the generation side means that reinstalling these things is a sizable chunk of the total cost of the plant. Once you've pulled them apart you could be in an area of no economic return.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Thu 03 Mar 2022, 10:34:46

vtsnowedin wrote:You have to wonder what process or activity of decommissioning short of the reactor core being pulled out and scraped can't be halted and reversed?
I suspect it is more a matter of wanting to do it or not that sets that stage.


According to this site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... r_reactors the three remaining operational reactors in Germany started service in the 1988/89 time frame. They've been in service for roughly 34 years now. I suspect the plan was to keep them in service until a major refurbishment was required and then shut them down. Of course no effort was put into preparing for a refurbishment so even if a decision was made to continue operating the reactors it would likely still require a lengthy shutdown period. We are currently in the process of refurbishing the 4 units at Darlington here in Ontario and it truly is a massive multi-year project which included the construction of a mock reactor unit so that all the steps could be tested in advance of working one of the actual reactors.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 03 Mar 2022, 11:10:03

AdamB wrote: Once you've pulled them apart you could be in an area of no economic return.

Possibly but would that not be dependent on the cost of alternative fuel produced power?
They shut down VT Yankee when it was near an overhaul and hydro Quebec and natural gas produced electricity became cheaper then it's projected future production costs.
If your alternative fuel is gas from a country run by a sadistic mad man you might feel safer in doing even a very costly overhaul.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 03 Mar 2022, 11:27:50

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote: Once you've pulled them apart you could be in an area of no economic return.

Possibly but would that not be dependent on the cost of alternative fuel produced power?


The economics of any form of dismantling and salvage, or interrupting either to recreate, matters. In everything, from a NG fired peaker plant to drilling the well to supply the gas in the first place. Then we get into ownership, who owns the nukes, who takes the hit versus who gets the economic advantage of the new build, are the supreme leaders involved with their fingers on the economic scale. And if Germany is really having a change of heart, cost could be no object on anything, be it renewable buildout or new nuke plant. If they really design their future around being self sufficient, any option will be pricey but with the government behind it, any option is possible. No way Germany doesn't spend the money and put their citizens in a bind. Most countries probably react the same way, except MURIKA. We'll mostly let the free market work itself out to the advantage of the corporations and utilities while the government quivers in its boots and hopes we don't hold them responsible for their lack of foresight, consistency and competence in the energy sector.

vtsnowedin wrote: They shut down VT Yankee when it was near an overhaul and hydro Quebec and natural gas produced electricity became cheaper then it's projected future production costs.
If your alternative fuel is gas from a country run by a sadistic mad man you might feel safer in doing even a very costly overhaul.


Yup. The good news is that while politicians say whatever stupid shit comes to mind to distract from the consequences of their past mistakes in current circumstance, there will be someone who knows what they are doing running the numbers behind them that knows the particulars and they (the politician) can course correct along the way. And hopefully get it done in time to take credit for it and not lose their seat on the gravy train.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 11 Jun 2022, 16:32:48

I'm not sure on the current figures, but a year ago US energy consumption by source and sector was 22% wood and 17% bio-fuels. The wood is rarely spoken of because it's Un-tech, everyone down on main street assumes we are increasing our use of solar and wind. In Germany the use of wood is even greater in proportion to other re-buildable sources.


June 16, 2021
Wood and waste energy, including wood, wood pellets, and biomass waste from landfills, accounted for about 22 percent of U.S. renewable energy consumption last year. The EIA noted that industrial, commercial and electric power facilities use wood and waste as a fuel to generate electricity, produce heat and manufacture goods.
https://biomassmagazine.com/articles/18 ... es-in-2020

This in my mind is an example of leap-frogging backward. We're going straight over coal and back to wood lol. What are the emissions from burning wood? Not that different to burning coal I would assume. But ignoring the climate, it's a sad indictment on our 1970's dream of a renewable future. As the oil gets scarcer and more expensive, wind and solar will become more and more expensive as well. But how much wood chip is to be had? And when the fossil fuel based industries that produce it fail, what then? Send the millions of unemployed out to gather sticks as the Israelite's were sent out to gather straw in Ancient Egypt...
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