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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 08 Nov 2021, 11:09:40

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Yes just my opinion but one formed from years of working for and with government.

Well, if you have lots of objective evidence with credible sources, why not share it to make your point?


It strikes me that an argument of "it won't work as claimed or cost what is claimed because the government is involved" approaches truism, as opposed to argument. I also agree that, ultimately, and as it is with most things, it will all boil down to economics.

Think...Model T's trying to drive across the country? Sort of difficult at first, then with expanding infrastructure (with BAZILLIONS of $$ of inefficient and expensive government "help"), less so.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 08 Nov 2021, 12:35:24

I'll give you that the two best deals the taxpayers have received from the Federal government are the REA(Rural electrification administration) and the original Interstate highway system. Both were paid for by user fees.
But today the politics and bureaucracy have gotten to the point that the waste factor is enormous.
The states and their citizens would have been much better off if they had raised their own taxes and administrated those projects they prioritized without the dubious 'aid' of the Federal government.
Tesla and others are already building out charger points with more then 40,000 of them already in place. Why have the government step in and muck things up?
I read a piece yesterday from a supplier that said installations of chargers were costing an average of $190K each for fast chargers that can charge a car in as few as ten minutes. That seems like a lot but going with it and assuming a fifty percent of daily hours and thirty minutes between cars you get 8760 charges per charger per year so if you charged $5.00 per charge above the cost of the electricity you would have the charger paid for in under five years. At New England's present price of electricity of $0.20/KWH a 70 KW charge in a Tesla would cost $14.00 plus the $5.00 and perhaps another $1.00 for the facility operator profit. $20/ 70kwh= net cost of 28.6 cents per KWH and at 3.7 miles per KWH gives a per mile cost of 7.7 cents.
Compared to an ICE car getting 35mpg on $3.40 gas or 9.7 cents per mile.
Now if you are the least bit cynical about our President he raised the price of gas on purpose to make the EVs competitive but that would assume he has the cognative ability to be that devious. :badgrin:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 08 Nov 2021, 13:20:45

vtsnowedin wrote:
Tesla and others are already building out charger points with more then 40,000 of them already in place. Why have the government step in and muck things up?


Indeed. Because the government has decided to "help" to further their political interests (notice I didn't say the interests of their constituents).Claimed, in this case, to be climate change concerns. It isn't as though telling citizens to consume less of everything allows the government to thief more dollars from them. right? But BUY BUY BUY and we'll HELP you keeps all the corporate sponsors involved and happy.

vtsnowedin wrote: Now if you are the least bit cynical about our President he raised the price of gas on purpose to make the EVs competitive but that would assume he has the cognative ability to be that devious. :badgrin:


I doubt that our permanent political class can do 2nd order thinking like this. They just randomly pinball between random talking points, signing expensive meaningless stuff and inflicting random harm in pursuit of "improving" anything.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 28 Nov 2021, 02:34:13

Another EV spontaneously bursts into flames......this time its a TESLA parked in the driveway and charging up in front of the owner's home in Pennsylvania.

The Tesla was a total loss, but unfortunately the owner had parked the EV too close to his home, and so when the Tesla burst into flames it set his home on fire as well. The home is also a total loss.

pa-home-total-loss-after-charging-tesla-driveway-spontaneously-combusts

Years ago Ralph Nader blasted the Chevy NOVA as "unsafe at any speed" because the car would catch on fire if it was rear-ended by another vehicle even if the collision was at a low velocity.

I wonder what Ralph Nader would say about all these EV fires?

Unsafe while stationary? Unsafe when charging? Unsafe if parked too close to the owner's home?

Image

??????
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 28 Nov 2021, 21:33:07

They are certainly a niche thing, like craft beer. I remember all the hype about the hydrogen powered cars 2 decades ago, everyone was all excited and investing bucket loads but when it became obvious they were a joke we heard no more. Recently they are at it again, Hydrogen2, or whatever you want to call it. More people will be sucked in this time as well no doubt but not as many who have been suckered into holding investments in Tesla. That's just a total ponzi at this stage. And where are the fully autonomous versions? Gone the way of the fusion power of course. Fusion, just ten years in the future and always will be.

I'm not anti-tech, far from it, but some things are practical and some are just plain stupid on a planet full of humans. An Autonomous cab pulls up at 1am and a drunks opens the back door and takes a dump on the seat just for laughs. I could see that becoming like a ticktok challenge. Personally I'd like to corral one with some wheelie bins, that would be fun. "But I saw them on TV, they said we'll all be driving in autonomous cars soon" Blah Blah Blah. Just keep watching the TV, that way you wont notice your job going out the backdoor.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 04:29:07

I think autonomous vehicle technology and electric cars are two separate things and should be looked at separately. After all an ICE car could have as much autonomous capabilities as a fully electric vehicle.
And yes a self driving Uber would certainly be subject to damage (dumps) by clients but having your own personnel car pick you up at the bar and drive you home safely while you pass out in the back would be good for you and the other drivers on the road.
I wonder how much less a new vehicle would cost in a version without all this high tech self driving gizmos? I could see a market niche there, but of course the insurance companies will insist you have the latest as soon as it becomes available and charge double if you insist on doing your own driving. Don't expect any discounts for having the newest and best though as the cost of the chips will exceed the costs of the airbags which already is often the item that totals a vehicle after an accident.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 11:41:16

Plantagenet wrote:Another EV spontaneously bursts into flames......this time its a TESLA parked in the driveway and charging up in front of the owner's home in Pennsylvania.


Does this make you concerned that your EV will do the same? Why don't you tell us about that? :)

Are you so scared for your safety that you've decided to charge it outside only? Not put it in the garage at the cabin?

Inquiring minds want to know why you even own one if your fascination is with them bursting into flames?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 11:47:32

theluckycountry wrote:They are certainly a niche thing, like craft beer.


Depends on where you live maybe? Planty has one in the wilds of Alaska, and EVs all around in it. Amusingly, won't say a word about it though, other than claiming to have one. Embarrassed maybe?

There are 4 of them in a row on my street, among just 3 houses (I've got 2). 2 Leaf's bracketing a Model X. The free EV stations at the wife's workplace are chock a block full of moochers getting free kWh. It wasn't that way 4 years ago when she was one of the few filling the Ford with electrons.

Those old peak oilers who thought that EVs would save us from peak oil certainly seem to have been right, I don't even know what the price of gasoline is right now, other than with oil up, refined products must be up as well.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 13:40:29

AdamB wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Another EV spontaneously bursts into flames......this time its a TESLA parked in the driveway and charging up in front of the owner's home in Pennsylvania.


Does this make you concerned that your EV will do the same? Why don't you tell us about that? :)

Are you so scared for your safety that you've decided to charge it outside only? Not put it in the garage at the cabin?

Inquiring minds want to know why you even own one if your fascination is with them bursting into flames?

Also, the battery technology is improving. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LFP) have better durability (more charging cycles), are cheaper than traditional Lithium Ion batteries, and are less of a fire risk (Iron more stable than Nickel, for one thing).

Given that the main drawbacks are they're heavier and somewhat less energy dense, they're a perfect next step for stationary applications like home backup batteries, and also a very good application for BEV's where the consumer can live with, say, 250ish miles of range instead of wanting 400 for lots of long trips.

That's all good news for me, who would prefer safety, longevity, and lower cost over longer trips without a charge -- and it's great for consumers to have choices.

My understanding is that the new, larger, more efficient 4680 battery format that Tesla is scaling up production on will also be safer, but we'll need to see that in large numbers of cars for a year or so to assess that re fire risk, so I'd expect to get a handle on that by, say, mid-2023, unless there is an unexpected long delay on them.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 15:46:28

AdamB wrote:There are 4 of them in a row on my street, among just 3 houses (I've got 2)


So you've got one fanboi who owns 2 and 2 other guys each owning 1 on a whole street, maybe in the whole copy-paste hood?
That sounds not very impressive. Maybe lucky is right and it's a niche thing after all?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 16:09:48

mousepad wrote:
AdamB wrote:There are 4 of them in a row on my street, among just 3 houses (I've got 2)


So you've got one fanboi who owns 2 and 2 other guys each owning 1 on a whole street, maybe in the whole copy-paste hood?
That sounds not very impressive. Maybe lucky is right and it's a niche thing after all?

So you claim that on a street of unknown length, pointing out what's in the driveway for 3 houses implies there are NO other EV's on the street (which could be miles long) or even the whole neighborhood, which could be hundreds of blocks.

Wow. Great science and math there. :roll: :idea:

And no sign of bias there. :!:

What's next: you convincing us the earth is flat since it superficially seems that way from the surface at first glance?

Like it or not, the first world will be transitioning to a VAST number of EV's, including many BEV's over the next 3 decades. And likely the whole world, though that might take more like 5 decades given financial and infrastructure considerations in the third world. For simple reasons of economics, BTW.

Do you think being in denial about it will work better for your ilk than, say, claiming AGW doesn't exist? Or that BEV's can't possibly be practical?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 16:44:58

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So you claim that on a street of unknown length, pointing out what's in the driveway for 3 houses implies there are NO other EV's on the street (which could be miles long) or even the whole neighborhood, which could be hundreds of blocks.


If it were so, AdamB would surely have pointed it out. Like, hey, in my neighborhood 70% are EV.
But he didn't. He cherry picked 3 houses with 4 EV.

Like it or not, the first world will be transitioning to a VAST number of EV's, including many BEV's over the next 3 decades.

You think so? You also think EV are the solution to all our problems?
Me on the other hand believe in LESS.
Less production, less work, less consumption, less waste. I don't think expensive high tech EV will save the day.

Do you think being in denial about it will work better for your ilk than, say, claiming AGW doesn't exist?


I think you take stuff way too personal and you get worked up to easily. Have a little fun once in a while.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 16:47:42

mousepad wrote:
AdamB wrote:There are 4 of them in a row on my street, among just 3 houses (I've got 2)


So you've got one fanboi who owns 2 and 2 other guys each owning 1 on a whole street, maybe in the whole copy-paste hood?
That sounds not very impressive. Maybe lucky is right and it's a niche thing after all?


I said street, I meant it. One street over there is a nice Model 3 and one of those new Hyundai small SUV EVs. 2 streets over and someone has a Ford identical to mine, color and everything, and there are at least 2 more Leafs across from the school (end of my street), a decent sprinkling. So sure I've got 2, it is the lady next door who drives the Model X (her husbands drives a 20+ year old Focus in excellent shape), and its a younger professional, does something in construction management, who has a Leaf that matches the one the wife uses. So I can think of a dozen within the 9 streets that make up my little neighborhood? Leafs seem to dominate, with Tesla's 2nd. As far as what passes for "impressive", I'll leave that up to your imagination. :) As far as lucky, maybe he didn't define niche? Certainly he couldn't have been referring to Norway, but might be able to pretend that Texans aren't that enthralled.

Here is how you know they are more then niche. About 3 years ago now, I got to do an EV on EV drag race at a stop light. I lost. But it means there are enough around, and out, to line up at a red light and have a go at it. Done it twice since then.

Ultimately, who cares? You like your high priced fuels, well, enjoy! I don't object to you spending discretionary income any way you'd like, and if you like throwing bills out the window every time you turn the key, well do it and be happy!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 17:30:32

AdamB wrote:So I can think of a dozen within the 9 streets that make up my little neighborhood?

Damn yuppy neighborhood. What can I say. :-)

you like throwing bills out the window every time you turn the key, well do it and be happy!


That's exactly what I'm wondering. I live rural, in harsh climate, without a garage, driving maybe 2000 miles year. (keep it local baby, that's the solution), in a 20 year old truck.
The car is mostly sitting outside all winter. I have a feeling having a valuable battery sitting in the cold for month on end ain't good for the battery nor for my money bin.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 29 Nov 2021, 20:02:38

mousepad wrote:
AdamB wrote:So I can think of a dozen within the 9 streets that make up my little neighborhood?

Damn yuppy neighborhood. What can I say. :-)


Well, it is suburban, and I'll grant that suburban sure ain't small town Nebraska and Missouri. I was visiting a medium sized college town in Appalachia for Thanksgiving, and the ratio of EVs to those polluting fossil fuel devouring monsters was quite a bit lower than where I live.

mousepad wrote:
you like throwing bills out the window every time you turn the key, well do it and be happy!


That's exactly what I'm wondering. I live rural, in harsh climate, without a garage, driving maybe 2000 miles year. (keep it local baby, that's the solution), in a 20 year old truck.


Hey, if you don't drive much, forget it. I bought a car for 2000 miles a year for the kids in college, it is 20 years old, did yeoman's work. They hated it because it was a stick, and as my daughter so adroitly put it, "it smells like old people". I did buy it from a lady going into a home, so. Anyway, it sits in the street, October to March, with studded snows and ready to go at a minutes snowstorm notice. It starts every time you turn the key, and works fine.

But all the around town stuff is now EV. Based out of a garage. No harsh climate though, rarely gets 100F+ here, or below -25F. Nothing wrong with being downsized. But the EV is doing about 1000 miles/month, rain or shine, good A/C and heat, the dog knows how to put the back windows down without our help, nice big trunk. I rotated the tires once? That was free. Just like most of the fuel for it.

mousepad wrote:The car is mostly sitting outside all winter. I have a feeling having a valuable battery sitting in the cold for month on end ain't good for the battery nor for my money bin.


Just dropped a new one into the winter beater. I'll need it with the first decent snow storm, to run to the store and get some snacks for the wife.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 00:01:58

Outcast_Searcher wrote: the battery technology is improving. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LFP) have better durability (more charging cycles), are cheaper than traditional Lithium Ion batteries, and are less of a fire risk (Iron more stable than Nickel, for one thing)...


Yup.

There are all kinds of potential innovations that will improve EV batteries and make EVs safer.

Hopefully Tesla and the other EV companies will ignore those EV fanbois who are so dumb they think its perfectly OK for EVs to spontaneously burst into flames and will instead take steps to move to new battery technology that is safer, more durable, and cheaper.

Image
Some EV companies have actually been telling people not to park their EVs in the garage or even near their house because the EV might explode into flames in the night and burn their house down....that really isn't the best way to address the battery fire problem---- it makes a lot more sense to move to better and safer technology.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 09:52:17

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote: the battery technology is improving. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LFP) have better durability (more charging cycles), are cheaper than traditional Lithium Ion batteries, and are less of a fire risk (Iron more stable than Nickel, for one thing)...


Yup.

There are all kinds of potential innovations that will improve EV batteries and make EVs safer.


Indeed. I have the so called "lizard" chemistry battery in my EV, designed to handle higher heat when charging or discharging. Did you consider the battery chemistry for cold weather usage when you bought your EV? :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 15:07:56

mousepad wrote:I think you take stuff way too personal and you get worked up to easily. Have a little fun once in a while.

LOL So you imply people are liars, call them names (I'm talking about AdamB re your fanboi and cherry picking claims), and then pretend to be all angelic, while claiming others get "worked up".

Man, look in the mirror, and deal with reality just a bit before making empty accusations.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Doly » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 15:53:12

What I've always wondered about electric vehicles is: are they really more energy-efficient, as it's been claimed? As in, when you count the energy needed (probably fossil fuels) to generate the electricity, aren't you using up more energy overall? Peak oil and peak gas are supposed to happen close to each other anyway, and coal is certainly not a popular fuel for power stations because of climate change.
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I am doing this
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 17:30:14

Doly wrote:What I've always wondered about electric vehicles is: are they really more energy-efficient, as it's been claimed? As in, when you count the energy needed (probably fossil fuels) to generate the electricity, aren't you using up more energy overall?


Well, my 2 have both been far more economical than previous ICE powered machines.

As far as energy inputs required, that info isn't contained on the sticker. I mean really, no one cares how much energy is required to make aluminum to put into a EV or ICE machine, they care about the $$ required to purchase and use the thing.

It isn't as though there is an energy shortage, as long as there are radioactive isotopes around and the local nuclear furnace stays lit.

Doly wrote:Peak oil and peak gas are supposed to happen close to each other anyway, and coal is certainly not a popular fuel for power stations because of climate change.


Peak oil has been claimed 6 times this century (including the most recent in 2018) and none of them seem to have bothered anyone. Let's hope the most recent is THE peak oil, if only to slow CO2 emissions?
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