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Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby basil_hayden » Tue 10 Mar 2009, 08:50:57

ubercrap wrote:
basil_hayden wrote:Sticking containers underground and painting some asphaltic coating on it takes care of corrosion, heat, cold, and general ugliness of these units.


"Ugly" is a vague, highly subjective term. Sure, if you just took one straight off of the truck and moved in, that isn't really an attractive, suitable place to live. If that is the extent of your imagination regarding how these could be used as above-ground shelter, well, I feel deeply sorry for you.



So you find large corrugated metal boxes to be the new hotness?

WTF no one on this board can agree with anything. It's beyond ridiculous.

I say this:

Large Corrugated Metal Boxes are Ugly.

If you can't agree with that statement, you're purposely looking for a fight, and I just can't understand that point of view.

You know what else is ugly?

Babies. Every one of them. But I accept that it's just my opinion. YMMV.

However, Large Corrugated Metal Boxes?

Universally Ugly. Can't be debated.

Paint? Windows? Sure, stick some lipstick on that pig!

But it's so much easier to bury ugly so one never has to view it.

Damn clowns on peakoil.com......WTF
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby ubercrap » Tue 10 Mar 2009, 16:21:59

basil_hayden wrote:
ubercrap wrote:
basil_hayden wrote:Sticking containers underground and painting some asphaltic coating on it takes care of corrosion, heat, cold, and general ugliness of these units.


"Ugly" is a vague, highly subjective term. Sure, if you just took one straight off of the truck and moved in, that isn't really an attractive, suitable place to live. If that is the extent of your imagination regarding how these could be used as above-ground shelter, well, I feel deeply sorry for you.



So you find large corrugated metal boxes to be the new hotness?

WTF no one on this board can agree with anything. It's beyond ridiculous.

I say this:

Large Corrugated Metal Boxes are Ugly.

If you can't agree with that statement, you're purposely looking for a fight, and I just can't understand that point of view.

You know what else is ugly?

Babies. Every one of them. But I accept that it's just my opinion. YMMV.

However, Large Corrugated Metal Boxes?

Universally Ugly. Can't be debated.

Paint? Windows? Sure, stick some lipstick on that pig!

But it's so much easier to bury ugly so one never has to view it.

Damn clowns on peakoil.com......WTF


I see, then you probably don't want to hear that are architects, companies, forums, websites, etc... entirely dedicated to repurposing containers in to buildings, including dwellings. :roll: A debate would be pointless, as one of the major reasons of the existence of the concept is to be not meant for people like you to understand. Only this time, it isn't cultural or generational exclusion at work, it's intellectual and aesthetic/artistic. Get it?
Last edited by ubercrap on Tue 10 Mar 2009, 16:38:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby AAA » Tue 10 Mar 2009, 16:31:12

I live about 2 miles from the Los Angeles/Long Beach Harbor and can see it from my kitchen window and living room. I also have several friends that are longshoremen down on the docks.

It has slowed dramatically. Some ships are coming into the harbor half full and leaving with only 15 or 20 containers filled. It has killed the local economies surrounding the harbor. A lot of homes are going into foreclosure because longshoremen cannot get work.

When ships leave the harbor they all blow their fog horns to say good-bye. We are used to hearing many throughout the day but lately we are lucky if we hear 1 or 2 a day.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby alokin » Tue 10 Mar 2009, 23:47:49

There are gorgeous architectural projects retrofitting containers into living space and I would not say that they are bad houses. But to convert this container into a living space you put a good amount of money into it. Containers have no kitchens, showers or toilets. That are exactly the most expensive rooms in a house.

I assume the US are among the countries with the biggest amount of m2 living space per person worldwide, so it makes not much sense adding even more.

You have to get in these foreclosured homes, they are ready to live in. Why dumping money in retrofitting containers while there are empty houses next door?
And don't be fooled by telling that it is cheap to retrofit a container: it has no windows, it has no doors, it has no flooring, no insulation, no piping no toilet no bath, no electricity, no wall/ceiling finishings (you could do without), it must be put somewhere and you must connect electricity water, waste water and this somewhere must have some sort of foundation. A nice idea for someone who has enough money or a free access to building materials, the knowledge and the tools and a place to put the container.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 07:45:00

alokin wrote:There are gorgeous architectural projects retrofitting containers into living space and I would not say that they are bad houses. But to convert this container into a living space you put a good amount of money into it. Containers have no kitchens, showers or toilets. That are exactly the most expensive rooms in a house.

I assume the US are among the countries with the biggest amount of m2 living space per person worldwide, so it makes not much sense adding even more.

You have to get in these foreclosured homes, they are ready to live in. Why dumping money in retrofitting containers while there are empty houses next door?
And don't be fooled by telling that it is cheap to retrofit a container: it has no windows, it has no doors, it has no flooring, no insulation, no piping no toilet no bath, no electricity, no wall/ceiling finishings (you could do without), it must be put somewhere and you must connect electricity water, waste water and this somewhere must have some sort of foundation. A nice idea for someone who has enough money or a free access to building materials, the knowledge and the tools and a place to put the container.


If I were building a new house I would consider using a container as an instant basement, but even then you would need to wire and plumb it so concrete would probably not be a big price difference.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby IslandCrow » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 08:30:21

The organisation I work for, uses two large containers for spare storage space. Last year, after owning the things for 10+ years, they finally got around to building a protective roof over them , with the containers making the outer walls on two sides and a space between for more storeage space.

They had used an old refrigerated trailer for storeage, but it was damp, and not mice proof...so not good for storing old financial papers! I have no idea what is currently in the storeage units, as they already have far too many underused buildings!
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Revi » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 08:41:26

There's a slight uptick in the Baltic Dry Index of late, but it's still down over 80% from a year ago:

http://www.investmenttools.com/futures/ ... _index.htm

Maybe we've turned the corner... Maybe...

The low point of world shipping may have been around the new year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4229 ... sinks.html
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby IslandCrow » Wed 11 Mar 2009, 10:41:07

From Revi's second link I found some information that I thought was significant: One the qualification of BDI as an index, and the second that some of the problem due to letters of credit seem to have been ironed out:


The Baltic Dry Index (BDI) which measures freight rates for bulk commodities such as iron ore and grains crashed several months ago, falling 96pc. The BDI – though a useful early-warning index – is highly volatile and exaggerates apparent ups and downs in trade. However, the latest phase of the shipping crisis is different. It has spread to core trade of finished industrial goods, the lifeblood of the world economy.
.....
It became difficult for the shippers to obtain routine letters of credit at the height of financial crisis over the autumn, causing goods to pile up at ports even though there was a willing buyer at the other end. Analysts say this problem has been resolved, but the shipping industry has since been swamped by the global trade contraction.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 18 Oct 2021, 15:35:25

Last week was another bad one for the continually disappearing Biden administration.
Image
As Americans took to social media to post pictures of bare Dunkin’ Donuts shelves, sold-out milk at big-box stores and other signs of an America in trouble, we learned that Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has been on paternity leave since August.

Buttigieg was always going to be a lightweight transportation chief. He got the job as a reward for dropping out of the presidential race and throwing his support to Joe Biden — and also because he said he likes trains, having gotten engaged at a train station.

My 5-year-old likes trains, too. Yet just because he can say “Choo choo!” with enthusiasm doesn’t mean he can oversee the country’s transportation system. When the country is having supply-chain problems, the transportation secretary’s skills and experience, let alone availability, become rather, uh, indispensable.

Buttigieg can take a two-month paternity leave, but the guy who runs the pizza shop down the block can’t just disappear for two months without putting someone else in charge. Someone has to make the calzone.

Team Biden’s continued mishandling of ships waiting to dock has caused prices of US goods to skyrocket for the first time since 2008.
REUTERS/Mike Blake/File Photo

The public didn’t even learn about Buttigieg’s break at the start, but only after transportation-related problems exploded around us. Who’s running the shop? Anyone?

This is all in keeping with the way a distracted, carefree, ideological Biden administration has operated the whole time. In September, the president took a weekend beach trip as the disaster on our southern border blew up and 14,000 Haitian migrants camped out under a bridge in Del Rio, Texas. As the US pullout from Afghanistan turned into an unmitigated disaster, the president disappeared — surfacing later to claim it was an enormous “success.”
Image
Now, as Americans start to worry about stocking their cupboards and buying Christmas presents, Biden goes more than a week refusing to take any questions. Sorry, but this is unacceptable, no matter who’s president.

Maybe we should’ve known: After all, Biden hid in his basement for much of his presidential campaign, and his aides routinely called early “lids,” telling the press the candidate would be unavailable for the day.

According to economists, the lack of goods being able to arrive at port has been feeding inflation, which is already very high.
Mario Tama/Getty Images

But he wasn’t president then; now he is.

Nor are those of his surrogates not on paternity leave offering more reassurance. Last week, Biden chief of staff Ron Klain retweeted a tone-deaf reference to the supply-chain issues as “high-class problems.” Really? It sure doesn’t feel that high-class when people are worrying about getting staples for their home. We all remember the toilet paper shortages during the pandemic last year; did that feel “high-class”?

Asked if holiday gifts would arrive on time, White House press secretary Jen Psaki was positively arrogant: “We’re not the Postal Service,” she huffed.

Prices of goods have been up well over 5 percent over last year for the past several months; the nation hasn’t seen spikes so sharp since 2008.
REUTERS/Lucy Nicholson/File Photo/File Photo

Thanks for your concern, Madam Press Secretary.

The supply nightmare has also helped feed inflation: When you manage to find milk on the shelf, a gallon can cost over $8.

What’s Psaki’s answer? “The American people are not looking at cost-to-cost comparisons from this year to two years ago.” Huh? Prices have been up well over 5 percent over last year for the past several months; the nation hasn’t seen spikes so sharp in 13 years.

And why wouldn’t we make comparisons? Biden made lavish promises as a candidate for president about how everything would run super well when he was elected. The country had been wrecked by Orange Man, and Biden would bring normalcy, sanity back to fix it all. Why shouldn’t Americans expect that? Instead, they’re getting just the opposite.
Image

“Look, folks,” Uncle Joe vowed last year, “we’re going to bring the Republicans and Democrats together and deliver economic relief for working families and schools and businesses.” No mention of struggling to find and buy cereal. No mention of administration officials who’d openly sneer at the problems of regular Americans.

No, Jen Psaki, you’re not the Postal Service. You’re worse at your job.

Biden & Co. never stop claiming they “inherited” all their problems from the previous administration. Yes, Joe Biden ran and won on not being Donald Trump. Someone needs to tell the president he can’t govern on that.


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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Revi » Mon 18 Oct 2021, 20:04:23

Very entertaining to blame our supply problems on Buttegieg's baby, but I think the problem may be worse than that. It's a supply chain problem in the press, but I think it may have something to do with worldwide shortages of energy. This idea may help!
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/cargo-ships-sails-michelin-spc-intl/index.html
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 18 Oct 2021, 23:03:54

Revi wrote:Very entertaining to blame our supply problems on Buttegieg's baby, but I think the problem may be worse than that. It's a supply chain problem in the press, but I think it may have something to do with worldwide shortages of energy.


Energy supply is just fine. JIT energy delivery appears to be lacking. But hey, what fun would it be if folks who understand the difference get in the way of doomer wet dreams, right Revi?
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Revi » Tue 19 Oct 2021, 01:03:50

Have you read Gail Tverberg's latest post? It talks a lot about what's going on. https://ourfiniteworld.com/
We invested in complexity, and now it's all too complex to really work effectively. Shipping used to be fairly complex, but now it's just one part of a system designed to get stuff delivered to our doors. I passed by the New Jersey docklands this summer and saw the thousands of Amazon prime trucks moving shipping containers across the country. There are a few big ports that take bulk of our shipping. Small ports aren't up to the task of getting all that stuff to us with the click of a mouse. Eimskip for example in Portland, Maine has a small cargo port by the waterfront. It may be worth it to figure out how to ship things without involving the giant retailers. Maybe even have some coasters that can move goods.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 19 Oct 2021, 06:24:59

Back at the beginning of the year, we did a thing about what we guessed the year would be like. Right about now, I said that the Fed would have to raise interest rates. I said that they would go through a crises at the beginning of the year, but that wasn't when rates got raised. I thought rates would be raised a quarter point about now.

Since then, I backtracked on that. I still think rates won't go up. That doesn't mean these reasons why will go away. I just think they can deal with them until a better time to raise rates, when the activity which they curtail by raising them is more directly linked to the policy. In other words, when they have a better idea the policy will work, without getting into a rate rising spiral.

Right now, we are playing with an entire segment of the economy that thinks it has done no wrong. Guess what, that's every segment. But these are relative offenses. They are about corrections to long standing imbalances, as well as short term things that people latch onto because they get jealous and want what others are getting for themselves. The Fed, I think, wants to address the point of economic health, not redress of grievances. Stalling now, may do that. It may not. There is a lot of complaint. If it gets leadership, the Fed might wish it had started sooner. If it doesn't, they can probably step in later.

Eventually, we will find out how everybody laid low and quit working during this time. It may actually have to do with cheap credit, if it wasn't government stimulus? If that is the case, we will find out when rates go up.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Pops » Tue 19 Oct 2021, 09:53:24

Revi wrote:Have you read Gail Tverberg's latest post? It talks ... now it's all too complex to really work effectively.

I did. And at first she seemed to be talking about the high cost of energy rather than her latest hobby horse of cost too low to allow further development. But she settled on "complexity."

I think the whole increasing complexity / diminishing returns bit is overused, especially on this site where the average age is probably higher than typical. Definitely the world is different than when most of us were kids in our little "Mayberrys." But the problem with the "Mayberrys" of the world today certainly isn't complexity. Mayberry was in N Carolina so I'll guess it's economic base in the '50s was furniture and textile jobs and probably tobacco. All jobs except tobacco (maybe it too) were exported to lower wage countries leaving an empty economic space behind. Even Opie probably went to school and became a chip designer in the big city. That goes a long way to explain where we are at now.

Just as California cornered the almond market through comparative advantage and efficiency of scale, containerized shipping and energy really too cheap to meter have allowed further and further concentration of manufacturing of all sorts.

Our problem with cheap shipping isn't increased complexity so much as reduced resilience. Monopolistic production, labor arbitrage and JIT enabled by containerization and digital communication of real time data has created this fragility. It has left behind "job deserts" like Mayberry, which likely doesn't even have a market with fresh produce any more. But also it stranded a lot of potentially productive workers and assets that have long been lost.

The concentration of production to fewer and fewer locations and companies combined with the lack of warehousing makes the system increasingly fragile. For example, one company: TSMC, produces 50% of all computer chips in the entire world. Pretty well every other manufacturing business depends on those products. That isn't complexity, that is weak link dependence and rigidity, underwritten by a the final offshoring to cheap labor-land. Unless Bezos discovers cheaper labor on Mars.

Image

We're all familiar with the EMP / CME complete grid failure catch-22 scenario known as a "black start" where the power required to start generating power is unavailable. An actual failure of the supply chain would be similar in that there is no ability—knowledge, skills, assets— to "bootstrap" chip manufacturing in 10,000 locations.

Or for that matter, no ability for Mayberry to start manufacturing chairs again.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/16/se ... mpetition/
https://fortune.com/2020/08/10/us-china ... hipmakers/
https://blog.bizvibe.com/blog/top-semic ... -companies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_start
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 19 Oct 2021, 12:19:10

Biden's press secretary just said the whole supply chain problem and the empty shelves people are seeing is only a "high class problem."

Apparently middle class, working class, and lower class people don't mind when the shelves are empty and prices on what is available are inflating rapidly.

Image
According to the Biden administration, only high class people are impacted by empty shelves, high prices, and other effects of the supply chain chaos we are seeing.

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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Oct 2021, 21:53:54

A lot of strange things are becoming hard to find. Here's a list from earlier this year:
https://strangesounds.org/2021/05/commodity-shortages-usa-why-how-long.html
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 21 Nov 2021, 10:19:10

alokin wrote:There are gorgeous architectural projects retrofitting containers into living space and I would not say that they are bad houses. But to convert this container into a living space you put a good amount of money into it. Containers have no kitchens, showers or toilets. That are exactly the most expensive rooms in a house.

I assume the US are among the countries with the biggest amount of m2 living space per person worldwide, so it makes not much sense adding even more.

You have to get in these foreclosured homes, they are ready to live in. Why dumping money in retrofitting containers while there are empty houses next door?
And don't be fooled by telling that it is cheap to retrofit a container: it has no windows, it has no doors, it has no flooring, no insulation, no piping no toilet no bath, no electricity, no wall/ceiling finishings (you could do without), it must be put somewhere and you must connect electricity water, waste water and this somewhere must have some sort of foundation. A nice idea for someone who has enough money or a free access to building materials, the knowledge and the tools and a place to put the container.


You make the same argument I make to myself, when I am watching those tiny home shows. I ask myself why wouldn't I just build that thing from scratch, than start with a container? Maybe the roof? But, if you are into it that deep, you can get a small crane. Because, it seems, if you build that stuff yourself you could really make it look good, for you, not just for TV. Look how awful most of those tiny kitchens are. A hotplate, really? And containers would be a lot of work. Not to mention that they don't make good all-climate houses. Imagine the heating bills, for even a small thing. All of that has nothing to do with aesthetics, unless you need the emotional position that comes with an organic tag, or something like that. I can see that being true, for some people. Me, I want to be five star in a small space. My story, though, is not a coming of age story, in which emotion must play a much bigger part. My story is at the other end of potential story arcs.
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Re: Stacked-up cargo at shipping terminals

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 21 Nov 2021, 10:49:27

Pops wrote:
Revi wrote:Have you read Gail Tverberg's latest post? It talks ... now it's all too complex to really work effectively.

I did. And at first she seemed to be talking about the high cost of energy rather than her latest hobby horse of cost too low to allow further development. But she settled on "complexity."

I think the whole increasing complexity / diminishing returns bit is overused, especially on this site where the average age is probably higher than typical. Definitely the world is different than when most of us were kids in our little "Mayberrys." But the problem with the "Mayberrys" of the world today certainly isn't complexity. Mayberry was in N Carolina so I'll guess it's economic base in the '50s was furniture and textile jobs and probably tobacco. All jobs except tobacco (maybe it too) were exported to lower wage countries leaving an empty economic space behind. Even Opie probably went to school and became a chip designer in the big city. That goes a long way to explain where we are at now.

Just as California cornered the almond market through comparative advantage and efficiency of scale, containerized shipping and energy really too cheap to meter have allowed further and further concentration of manufacturing of all sorts.

Our problem with cheap shipping isn't increased complexity so much as reduced resilience. Monopolistic production, labor arbitrage and JIT enabled by containerization and digital communication of real time data has created this fragility. It has left behind "job deserts" like Mayberry, which likely doesn't even have a market with fresh produce any more. But also it stranded a lot of potentially productive workers and assets that have long been lost.

The concentration of production to fewer and fewer locations and companies combined with the lack of warehousing makes the system increasingly fragile. For example, one company: TSMC, produces 50% of all computer chips in the entire world. Pretty well every other manufacturing business depends on those products. That isn't complexity, that is weak link dependence and rigidity, underwritten by a the final offshoring to cheap labor-land. Unless Bezos discovers cheaper labor on Mars.

Image

We're all familiar with the EMP / CME complete grid failure catch-22 scenario known as a "black start" where the power required to start generating power is unavailable. An actual failure of the supply chain would be similar in that there is no ability—knowledge, skills, assets— to "bootstrap" chip manufacturing in 10,000 locations.

Or for that matter, no ability for Mayberry to start manufacturing chairs again.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/16/se ... mpetition/
https://fortune.com/2020/08/10/us-china ... hipmakers/
https://blog.bizvibe.com/blog/top-semic ... -companies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_start

Or is this what was sown, before the pandemic even hit? Remember how far, and how fast, the US began to sprint away from its commitment to globalization? Well, the cows may have come home.

Plant will come on and say, "Whaaaa, it's all Biden's fault."

Biden certainly isn't helping things much. But I think restarting something like the global economy is like restarting a jet airplane. Sometimes, when they have been hot, and let to cool down in this weird, two step way, they don't start right back up. You gotta play with them. They can be dangerous, especially if you let some Yahoo get access to the starter switch while you are still inside the cowling, under the hood, so to speak.
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