[mustang19]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b00997

Major sustainability problem nobody talks about. Steel will eventually be too contaminated to continue recycling. In fact the recycling process is what causes this problem, if you just let it corrode it would return to the soil.
By 2050 recycling will be useless, you will need to make new steel with wood/iron ore and the price of everything will be more (not that anyone will live that long).

[Outcast_Searcher]

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b00997

Major sustainability problem nobody talks about. Steel will eventually be too contaminated to continue recycling. In fact the recycling process is what causes this problem, if you just let it corrode it would return to the soil.
By 2050 recycling will be useless, you will need to make new steel with wood/iron ore and the price of everything will be more (not that anyone will live that long).

When no new technology improves things for THE NEXT THREE DECADES, be SURE and get back to us.

Meanwhile, in the real world, your terrible track record re poor forecasts doesn't exactly inspire confidence in your "doom is here around EVERY corner, EVERY month" outlook.

Not that I'd expect your ilk to EVER admit that.

[Newfie]

It is an interesting problem. I have been hearing non-specific complaints about steel in recent years. The complaint is generally that current steel has a high percent of recycled material and the product is inferior. I have also heard of steel products being contaminated with other material besides copper, to the extent of special heat resistant bolts finding their way into plate or bar.

It seems the general degeneration of steel is a genuine concern. Thanks file it in the “Resource Depletion” bin if things I worry about for humanity. Just another nail in the coffin.

[mustang19]

It is an interesting problem. I have been hearing non-specific complaints about steel in recent years. The complaint is generally that current steel has a high percent of recycled material and the product is inferior. I have also heard of steel products being contaminated with other material besides copper, to the extent of special heat resistant bolts finding their way into plate or bar.

It seems the general degeneration of steel is a genuine concern. Thanks file it in the “Resource Depletion” bin if things I worry about for humanity. Just another nail in the coffin.

New steel production is 10% of what it was in the fifties. Society is extremely close to total collapse and it's hidden by recycling.

Shake is EROI useless. The lack of relation between shale and gdp even in 2015 proves this.

That tiny 1mbpd from Saudi Arabia is the only thing keeping society afloat, everything else is heavy oil or irrelevant. Tar sands are similar, Brazil, Nigeria, and Latam produce heavy oil which is 30% less light products, the gulf is around a third of oil imports and around 80% of the useful.

A major factor for future steel contamination is the idea of hydrogen iron processing and such which cause embrittlement. A lot of the green ideas actually cause contamination.

[Subjectivist]

This is a silly topic, running scrap steel back through basic refining to separate the iron from the alloying elements. Then you can recombine them in whatever formula you prefer.

[Gmark]

The steel industry in North America has been recycling steel scrap for more than 150 years. The steel industry needs scrap to produce new steel, which ensures that all steel products contain anywhere from 25 percent up to 100 percent recycled content. It also is cheaper to recycle steel than it is to mine virgin ore to manufacture new steel. New ore is still mined in order to supplement production of steel and steel products.

https://www.steel-technology.com/articles/wastedisposal#:~:text=The%20steel%20industry%20in%20North%20America%20has%20been,to%20mine%20virgin%20ore%20to%20manufacture%20new%20steel.

[Outcast_Searcher]

This is a silly topic, running scrap steel back through basic refining to separate the iron from the alloying elements. Then you can recombine them in whatever formula you prefer.

Yes. Also, physics is a thing and we've gotten very good at measuring things and keeping records. When credible objective data shows that steel at grade X is declining meaningfully, THAT will be a potential problem, depending on what is actually going on there.

In the mean time, the problems with things falling down from poor construction, etc. show no credible signs of being from weakened steel, but from poor maintenance, or not following building codes, or both. Also, poor construction methods re trying out new things to save money without proper vetting comes into play now and again -- not the steel's fault, of course.
.
As the usual suspects drag more and more paranoid theories around WITHOUT credible data to back them up, without any meaningful scientific basis, etc, it just gets sillier and sillier over time.

An actual problem there is that generally, the education level of such a large proportion of the voting and working public is so poor that they can't tell the difference between credible fact and various sorts of nonsense. Even with the internet to use their supposed educations and do some checking.

[Newfie]

Try googling

Recycled steel copper contamination

It seems it is a real thing. Not catastrophic in itself, but something that is problematic.

One paper is linked below. There are others.

Abstract
Copper and tin, as tramp elements in the steel scrap, cause some harmful effects, such as hot shortness caused by a loss of ductility and surface defects. It is also difficult to maintain the quality of the product because the amount of the residual constituents in steel scrap is not consistent. The secondary steel products require consistent copper content and standard due to the limited use of the product for the various applications. Thermodynamically, removing copper from scrap is a viable option, but in reality, the impurities and the included copper in the melt of steel scrap are difficult to remove by conventional methods. Besides, the research of the recycled steel scrap regarding iron and impurities is limited, and it needs to be conducted, in terms of physical and chemical techniques, as the preliminary study to find the efficient separation method.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 36830-2_34

[Tanada]

Try googling

Recycled steel copper contamination

It seems it is a real thing. Not catastrophic in itself, but something that is problematic.

One paper is linked below. There are others.

Abstract
Copper and tin, as tramp elements in the steel scrap, cause some harmful effects, such as hot shortness caused by a loss of ductility and surface defects. It is also difficult to maintain the quality of the product because the amount of the residual constituents in steel scrap is not consistent. The secondary steel products require consistent copper content and standard due to the limited use of the product for the various applications. Thermodynamically, removing copper from scrap is a viable option, but in reality, the impurities and the included copper in the melt of steel scrap are difficult to remove by conventional methods. Besides, the research of the recycled steel scrap regarding iron and impurities is limited, and it needs to be conducted, in terms of physical and chemical techniques, as the preliminary study to find the efficient separation method.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 36830-2_34

It appears to me the problem is not how to clean up recycled steel but whether the foundry's doing the recycling are conscientious about producing good product. IOW we have the technology to easily avoid the problem but the businesses involved have to make the effort.

[Newfie]

Tanada,

Elsewhere I read that simply crushing alternators and such along with steel then leaves enough copper smooshed into the steel to be an issue, even if the copper and steel are mechanically separated afterward.

I don’t know, just repeating what I read.

We could do better, but we don’t. Where have I heard that before.

[theluckycountry]

From mustang's article...

Making steel from scrap in an Electric Arc Furnace (EAF) leads to around one-third the greenhouse gas emissions associated with steelmaking from ore. (2) As steel production accounts for approximately 25% of industrial emissions, (3) further reliance on recycling to supply demanded products is key to climate change mitigation

Somehow I think by 2050 copper contamination will not be the issue with steel recycling, powering the arc furnaces will. Oh yes, that's right, endless fields of solar panels lol lol.

Energy consumption varies from 350-700 kWh/ton of steel produced.

http://heattreatconsortium.com/metals-a ... nsumption/
https://www.dancarbon.com/q/eaf/electri ... n-187.html

[AdamB]

Somehow I think by 2050 copper contamination will not be the issue with steel recycling, powering the arc furnaces will. Oh yes, that's right, endless fields of solar panels lol lol.

Folks from a country that can't build cars, submarines or civilian nuclear reactors certainly might think that solar panels are all that might be availale to run arc furnaces. Fortunately, countries that can build all 3, are world's largest producer of oil and gas, has exceptionalism stamped all over them, are happy to share with even our simpleton allies.

[vtsnowedin]

I find it interesting that one of the steel culvert manufactures uses "coppersteel" as a product name implying they rust slower then a straight steel culvert.
Copper melts at a lower temperature then iron or steel so it should not be a problem to drain it off early in the process of remelting scrap. Of course you could just use scrap that did not have electric motors and alternators thrown in whole. Ship plates ,bridge beams, railroad rails etc.
Also considering the demand for copper and the price of it a industry of disassembling motors etc to recover the copper will probably become a reality long before the scrap steel supply becomes unusable for sheet steel.

[Doly]

An actual problem there is that generally, the education level of such a large proportion of the voting and working public is so poor that they can't tell the difference between credible fact and various sorts of nonsense. Even with the internet to use their supposed educations and do some checking.

It's true that the education level is less than ideal, but also, the Internet doesn't exactly help with checking. There is plenty of misinformation floating around, and some of the misinformation has been made to look like it's been produced by experts.

[AdamB]

An actual problem there is that generally, the education level of such a large proportion of the voting and working public is so poor that they can't tell the difference between credible fact and various sorts of nonsense. Even with the internet to use their supposed educations and do some checking.

It's true that the education level is less than ideal, but also, the Internet doesn't exactly help with checking. There is plenty of misinformation floating around, and some of the misinformation has been made to look like it's been produced by experts.

Indeed, and welcome to the world of refuting peak oil logic 15 years ago.

But in terms of education in general, I don't think education explains it all. Such was my assumption, 15 years ago when I entered the peak oil world, "if only they knew more", "if only i could show them references and knowledge", "if only they knew this science"...if only"...."if only"...."

I started dealing with the folks who only had PhD's, figuring that education wasn't the issue with them, by definition. What I learned instead is that belief is far more powerful than education. Education only meant they could use intelligience and their experience (even within the fields of science in question) to justify their beliefs, defend their beliefs, and could ignore facts and logic just as steadfast as a religious zealot. Heaven's Gaters with degrees if you will.

So no, education isn't itself a solution, and misinformation just makes it worse because now to even become educated you've got to understand how to tell good information from bad.

[kublikhan]

But in terms of education in general, I don't think education explains it all. Such was my assumption, 15 years ago when I entered the peak oil world, "if only they knew more", "if only i could show them references and knowledge", "if only they knew this science"...if only"...."if only"...."

I started dealing with the folks who only had PhD's, figuring that education wasn't the issue with them, by definition. What I learned instead is that belief is far more powerful than education. Education only meant they could use intelligience and their experience (even within the fields of science in question) to justify their beliefs, defend their beliefs, and could ignore facts and logic just as steadfast as a religious zealot. Heaven's Gaters with degrees if you will.

So no, education isn't itself a solution, and misinformation just makes it worse because now to even become educated you've got to understand how to tell good information from bad.

Yeah every time I ran into one of those types I always thought of a SG-1 quote:

[It doesn't matter what the truth is. They won't hear of it, no matter what you say. They wouldn't know the truth if it was standing right in front of them. It's all lies and propaganda as far as they're concerned: we're wrong, they're right, they're good, we're bad.

SG-1

[JuanP]

Yeah every time I ran into one of those types I always thought of a SG-1 quote:

[It doesn't matter what the truth is. They won't hear of it, no matter what you say. They wouldn't know the truth if it was standing right in front of them. It's all lies and propaganda as far as they're concerned: we're wrong, they're right, they're good, we're bad.

SG-1

What a wonderful quote. It describes them perfectly. I gave up on trying to talk reason to people who won't listen as a teenager. Now I just seek the truth for my own enlightenment. I am not responsible for anyone else's beliefs, thoughts, actions, reactions, and inactions, just my own. A huge weight was lifted off my shoulders when I learnt that.

Thanks for sharing!

[mousepad]

But how do you guys know the truth?
You claiming "they are wrong" because you are the true seeker of the truth and only you know truth and only you recognize truth not only when it is standing right in front of you, but also when it is hidden behind a forest of trees.

Could it be that the truth is not reachable at all? But it can only be approached? And depending the side you approach it from you get different views of the truth?

[AdamB]

[It doesn't matter what the truth is. They won't hear of it, no matter what you say. They wouldn't know the truth if it was standing right in front of them. It's all lies and propaganda as far as they're concerned: we're wrong, they're right, they're good, we're bad.

Far more succinct than what I wrote. And difficult to believe, it has always seemed to me that there are facts, and opinions. And if one assembled facts within the confines of the appropriate fields of science, the conclusion was self evident and could be explained and agreed to by all. Anyone remember geometry proofs done in high school? You build up from the simplest of the known, to arrive at far reaching and completely amazing theorems that just....are.

It took the better part of a year to prove to myself that this process does not apply when dealing with the faith based. And that faith operated regardless of the amount of technical knowledge or education the believer had. This was all absolutely amazing, and ranks among the one of the more interesting discoveries of my personal and professional life. Changed the way I deal with people in my day to day interactions and continues to this very day. So thank you peak oil for that.

[AdamB]

But how do you guys know the truth?

Indeed. I get nervous when it gets referenced usually.

Could it be that the truth is not reachable at all?

Or is completely personal.