Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

The Methane Thread pt. 2

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 10 Oct 2020, 00:02:14


June 2020: 1872.2 ppb
June 2019: 1858.8 ppb
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 10 Oct 2020, 00:03:45

Image
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 11 Oct 2020, 13:25:03

Just checking my log in.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 11280
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Oct 2020, 13:32:57

Rockman,

Log in - check! :-D
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15699
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 28 Oct 2020, 19:06:01

“The Green Hydrogen Problem That No One Is Talking About”
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-Gene ... About.html

“Gigawatt upon gigawatt of green hydrogen capacity is being planned across Europe, Asia, and Australia. According to proponents of the technology, green hydrogen - the kind produced through electrolysis powered by solar, wind, and other renewable energy sources - is the best way to decarbonize heavy polluter industries. There is much talk about the falling costs of solar and wind and how they will make green hydrogen viable very soon. What nobody seems to want to talk about is water…One industry source told Oilprice that the production of one ton of hydrogen through electrolysis required an average of nine tons of water. But to get these nine tons of water, it would not be enough to just divert a nearby river. The water that the electrolyzer breaks down into constituent elements needs to be purified. The process of water purification, for its part, is rather wasteful. According to the same source, water treatment systems typically require some two tons of impure water to produce one ton of purified water. In other words, one ton of hydrogen actually needs not nine but 18 tons of water. Accounting for losses, the ratio is closer to 20 tons of water for every 1 ton of hydrogen…Besides being pure, the water to be fed into an electrolyzer has to be transported to it. Transporting tons upon tons of water to the site of an electrolyzer means more expenses for the logistics…Perhaps the cost of water supply, storage, and purification is negligible compared with other costs that need to be addressed first. Yet it is an actual cost that should be added to the total when estimating how far the technology of producing hydrogen from renewable electricity has progressed and how viable it has become. For now, experts appear to be unanimous that it is not viable - not without significant government support.”
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 28 Oct 2020, 21:10:24

If it needs government support then it is not worth doing.
But why would you transport water when you can build your plant at the waters edge?
Ever hear of reverse osmosis ?
When and if fuel gets scarce enough and costly enough they will do this without government guidance or support.
Not anytime soon I suspect.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11887
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 05 Nov 2020, 05:53:32

I have posted articles showing green hydrogen has many hurdles to overcome from economics to the water needed. If society wants to pursue 100% renewable then green hydrogen is likely the only way to get there. I personally don’t agree with 100% renewable in the imagine of the modern high tech green. IMO the modern green is delusional and drunk on tech. That said we have lots of low hanging fruit of a green transformation that can help with the steps down ahead. Green hydrogen is an exciting field because storage is the Achilles heal for renewables. No other technology can scale like green hydrogen IMO. It likley will take a cornucopia of solutions but green hydrogen looks like one of the most promising for seasonal storage but also transport and an additive for Nat Gas.

https://www.energy-storage.news/images/ ... 0_s_c1.jpg

https://www.energy-storage.news/images/ ... 2_80_s.jpg

“Green hydrogen: The zero-carbon seasonal energy storage solution”
https://www.energy-storage.news/blogs/g ... e-solution

“The resulting graphic clearly demonstrated that in a very high, 100% renewable scenario, multi-day and seasonal energy storage solutions would be required to balance the grid. At that time, the largest form of energy storage within CESA’s membership was pumped hydro, and even that could not offer nearly enough capacity for seasonal energy storage needs…From my explorations, it became clear: of the commercially available solutions, green hydrogen was the only low-carbon, potentially economically viable option to support seasonal, dispatchable, scalable energy storage for the grid…Even more exciting, my research uncovered the amazing flexibility of hydrogen molecules. For example, hydrogen gas can power the grid via multiple pathways, either through conversion in a fuel cell or by direct combustion in a gas turbine. Indeed, many gas turbines were already able to combust a blend of natural gas and hydrogen, and several leading manufacturers, such as Mitsubishi Hitachi Power Systems and Siemens, were developing new gas turbines that could consume 100% hydrogen gas. Understanding that green hydrogen could serve as a drop-in fuel replacement for natural gas and provide long duration seasonal energy storage using existing infrastructure was my “Eureka!” moment. By repurposing existing energy infrastructure, I knew green hydrogen held the promise of making our clean energy transition affordable, reliable and scalable…Since seasonal energy storage is where my green hydrogen journey started, I wanted to share some reasons I am convinced that green hydrogen is the ideal seasonal energy storage medium: Hydrogen is abundant Green hydrogen offers separate power and energy scaling Green hydrogen can be produced from multiple renewable energy sources Green hydrogen can be stored at scale”
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2020, 16:17:37

REAL Green wrote: hydrogen .... 100% renewable ...green hydrogen.... modern high tech green.... Green hydrogen is an exciting field ....No other technology can scale like green hydrogen .....green hydrogen looks like one of the most promising


Unfortunately Obama zeroed out the hydrogen car research program in DOE about 10 years ago in favor of putting all US research funding into EVs.

IMHO hydrogen is a very interesting technology, and the US should definitely pursue it, but unfortunately now we're about 10 years behind Japan and other countries who continued to do research on Hydrogen fuels when the US stopped.

Image
Japan's Honda Corporation is now producing the Clarity---a hydrogen fuel cell powered car. We're 10 years behind Japan and we have nothing comparable in the US because about 10 years ago Obama zeroed out all funding for research on hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Cheers!
250 million thousand people have died of covid---Joe Biden
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama

-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 24334
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby dissident » Fri 06 Nov 2020, 18:43:47

Who's building the hydrogen filling stations? At least with EVs there are some plug in points outside of major urban areas. If hydrogen fuel is to become viable, it needs to be made viable. That means "command economy" type decisions to deploy fuel stations with a critical mass to matter. That is what happened with gasoline stations anyway.
dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6233
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Nov 2020, 22:25:04

dissident wrote:Who's building the hydrogen filling stations? At least with EVs there are some plug in points outside of major urban areas. If hydrogen fuel is to become viable, it needs to be made viable. That means "command economy" type decisions to deploy fuel stations with a critical mass to matter. That is what happened with gasoline stations anyway.


In Japan and some other countries there are hydrogen filling stations.

In the US there aren't any hydrogen filing stations and there isn't a viable hydrogen fuel cell car industry because the Obama administration decided the US should focus only on EVs.

Image
Japanese hydrogen filling station

Cheers!
250 million thousand people have died of covid---Joe Biden
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama

-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 24334
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 08 Nov 2020, 10:06:57


July 2020: 1872.0 ppb
July 2019: 1858.4 ppb
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 15 Nov 2020, 21:47:00

Watch it and weep:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1ChxLmpbz4

Arctic Methane: Has 2020 triggered a tipping point?


New survey reveals massive methane release
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19995
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 27 Nov 2020, 08:24:25

https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/ ... ic-tundra/

The recently-formed new hole or funnel is the latest to be seen in northern Siberia since the phenomenon was first registered in 2014.
...
The 'crater' - these holes are called hydrolaccoliths or bulgunnyakhs by scientists - is given the number 17, and is seen as the most impressive of the large holes to suddenly appear in recent years as the permafrost thaws.
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19995
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 11 Dec 2020, 11:39:32


August 2020: 1876.9 ppb
August 2019: 1863.0 ppb
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby dissident » Fri 11 Dec 2020, 18:53:44

dohboi wrote:https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/giant-new-50-metre-deep-crater-opens-up-in-arctic-tundra/

The recently-formed new hole or funnel is the latest to be seen in northern Siberia since the phenomenon was first registered in 2014.
...
The 'crater' - these holes are called hydrolaccoliths or bulgunnyakhs by scientists - is given the number 17, and is seen as the most impressive of the large holes to suddenly appear in recent years as the permafrost thaws.


The Yamal is a special place with substantial subsoil clathrate formations. It is not your usual permafrost zone. And it is no accident that this is a prime natural gas reservoir location. It is basically a certainty that these clathrates are related to natural gas seeps.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-3263/10/5/170

There are shallow formation processes but clearly these are not universal and the dominant process. Otherwise such craters would be forming in Canada and Alaska and other parts of Arctic Russia.
dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6233
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Dec 2020, 17:26:06

Good points, as usual, dis

I have often suspected something like the following...interesting to see it confirmed:

The Moon Controls the Release of Methane in Arctic Ocean


https://phys.org/news/2020-12-moon-meth ... ocean.html
Small pressure changes affect methane release. A recent paper in Nature Communications even implies that the moon has a role to play.

The moon controls one of the most formidable forces in nature—the tides that shape our coastlines. Tides, in turn, significantly affect the intensity of methane emissions from the Arctic Ocean seafloor.

"We noticed that gas accumulations, which are in the sediments within a meter from the seafloor, are vulnerable to even slight pressure changes in the water column.

Low tide means less of such hydrostatic pressure and higher intensity of methane release. High tide equals high pressure and lower intensity of the release," says co-author of the paper Andreia Plaza Faverola...
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 19995
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 04:00:00

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 17 Dec 2020, 08:28:12

Sometimes we get good news!

Purdue study downgrades Arctic methane emissions thanks to soil microbes

WEST LAFAYETTE, Ind. — Rising global temperatures are expected to thaw Arctic permafrost, reinvigorating the microorganisms that live in the region’s carbon-rich soils. When that happens, those microbes will begin consuming the carbon stored in the permafrost and emitting massive amounts of methane, one of the most powerful greenhouse gases on the planet.

This injection of methane into the atmosphere is a concern for climate scientists worried that it will exacerbate global warming. But Purdue University scientists say that while there will likely be more methane — and still a concerning amount — the net emissions from the Arctic may be much smaller than expected.

Qianlai Zhuang, a professor in the departments of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences and Agronomy, and Youmi Oh, a graduate student in Zhuang’s lab, say that permafrost thaw increases not only methane production in Arctic wetlands but also methane consumption in upland areas. Upland dry and mineral-based soils account for 87% of Arctic soils and are rich in microbes called methanotrophs that consume methane.

“This group of bacteria utilizes atmospheric methane as an energy source,” Zhuang said. “The emissions from wetlands will potentially be quite large, but if you consider the uplands, then the area-aggregated net emissions will be much smaller than previously thought.”

Arctic organic-rich soils emit methane to the atmosphere when their methane production by methanogens is larger than the methane consumption by methanotrophs. The methanotrophs in those soils require high-level methane concentrations to survive and reproduce.

In contrast, scientists discovered novel methanotrophs in Arctic mineral uplands. These high-affinity methanotrophs require less than 1% of the methane concentration level that allows their wetland counterparts to thrive. That means they can survive and reproduce on atmospheric methane concentration levels and can pull methane from the atmosphere.

Zhuang and Oh included the role of these microorganisms in methane consumption into a biogeochemical model and found that they significantly reduce the net regional methane emissions to the atmosphere. Their results were published in the journal Nature Climate Change.

Their findings more closely resemble recent observed trends in methane levels in the Arctic where emissions have increased, but atmospheric accumulations have not increased as quickly as models had simulated.

“We do believe that Arctic methane emissions will increase by the end of this century as other studies have shown, but the net increase to the atmosphere will be much smaller once upland methanotrophs are taken into consideration,” Oh said. “It was even possible in our simulation that net emissions decrease because high-affinity methanotrophs survive better than methanogens in response to warming.”

While smaller net methane emissions sound good at first glance, Zhuang and Oh warn that the scenario would be dependent on higher global temperatures.

“We could see Arctic methanotrophs consume more methane than the region is producing, but that would require even more warming,” Zhuang said. “And it’s important to remember that this is only one part of the planet. It doesn’t account for greenhouse gases produced in other regions.”

Zhuang and Oh will continue to monitor Arctic methane emissions and improve their model. They believe they’ve added a critical component required to better understand net methane emissions, but they say that current models will need to adapt to provide more accurate projections.

“The model we use assumes that wetland and upland areas will not change in the future,” Oh said. “We know, however, that changes in temperature, precipitation and other factors will impact areal dynamics of wetland vs. upland, thus methane emissions.”

Graduate student Licheng Liu and Lisa Welp, an assistant professor in the Department of Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Sciences, also contributed to the study. Zhuang and Oh received funding from NASA Interdisciplinary Research in Earth Science program and NASA Earth and Space Science Fellowship program.

About Purdue University

Purdue University is a top public research institution developing practical solutions to today’s toughest challenges. Ranked the No. 6 Most Innovative University in the United States by U.S. News & World Report, Purdue delivers world-changing research and out-of-this-world discovery. Committed to hands-on and online, real-world learning, Purdue offers a transformative education to all. Committed to affordability and accessibility, Purdue has frozen tuition and most fees at 2012-13 levels, enabling more students than ever to graduate debt-free. See how Purdue never stops in the persistent pursuit of the next giant leap at purdue.edu.


LINKY
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: The Methane Thread pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 22 Jan 2021, 11:12:23


September 2020: 1884.0 ppb
September 2019: 1870.7 ppb
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16120
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Previous

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests