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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 05:42:00

Yonnipun wrote:The charging time is what kills the electric car for me completely. It takes many hours to charge a battery from dead. You can not go for a longer ride without much discomfort... Other than that they are quite boring...The fire hazard is the second thing that kills it for me.


I don't like cars. They are a necessary evil. In fact I hate TV car commercials becuase of what they are selling. IMO techno mobility is what has destroyed the planet much quicker than animal and sail would have. The world is homogenous and too easy to cross. To much invasive behavior that is out of scale . Most people need to be less mobile for the better of the planet and themselves. I am into efficiency and conservation. This is not a righteous thing this is a passion. I do think it is good ethics too but I don't want to force it on others. I merely tell them I feel we all need to lower our planetary foot print kind of like when I was a kid my parents told me I should finish my food becuase there are people starving. At this point the earth has tipped into a new regime plus behavior will never change. Affluence and dopamine are the impediments to change meaning green is generally fake today except in a small minority of seriously minded people. EV when properly used and purchased are better for the earth than ICE but not very much. They don't deserve a green label like many fake greens wear around with an attitude. The whole mobility package including behavior and lifestyle is bad.

I am getting a commuter EV maybe next year. I will keep my wife's outback for long distances. That outback will last for years and is a classic worth keeping. Yea I am a hypocrite but I admit it. I want to eventually put up panels to charge the EV. These would be separate from my home system. They would be grid tide but also charge when needed. I think a Sunnyboy will do that if not I will use a throw switch to change flow from grid to EV. The wife and I don't drive much so charging time is not such an issue. I am not happy with the high cost but I hope these will come down eventually.

I have a solar system which I love. I just purchased a lithium phosphate battery which is working great. I get a lot more performance out of my pannels with this battery than with my Trojan gels. I moved the gels to the barn to replace my 8 year old lead acid batteries that are finished. I am a green prepper and REAL Green which means realistic and relative so I will continue to use ICE and EV. From a prepping point of view diversified transport is optimal and off grid charging even better. I wish I could be horse and buggy so instead I will practice strategies of driving much less discretionary trips and combining essential trips to make it more green. This is the Anthropocene and for my situation driving is survival. I wish it could be different. I dislike cars and the car culture.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 07:16:33

Yonnipun wrote:The charging time is what kills the electric car for me completely. It takes many hours to charge a battery from dead. You can not go for a longer ride without much discomfort. It means you need a second car with ICE or you need to rent a car for it.

It does not for me. Average commute is under forty miles round trip so most owners will charge at home while they sleep and their EV will be always be on the top third of their battery. Almost any long trip involves interstate driving and fast chargers are being built out along those corridors rapidly so after you have driven 300 miles and five hours from home you will need a lunch break while the car charges.
A few people do drive long distances daily and for them keeping the ICE car is their best option but they are a minority of drivers.


I like a car with character.


Are you saying a cyber truck lacks character? :-D

The fire hazard is the second thing that kills it for me.

I don't know how much of that is real and how much is made up conspiracy theory but I expect any real issue to be solved as the industry matures and experience reveals the root cause of the problem if it exists at all.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 13:01:31

vtsnowedin wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:
The fire hazard is the second thing that kills it for me.

I don't know how much of that is real and how much is made up conspiracy theory ...


Its no conspiracy theory.

Your very own Federal Government agency in charge of auto safety, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) recently had GM recall over 65,000 Chevy Bolts over the fire safety issue. Same thing with the Hyundai KONA EV.

Then they had these EV companies warn that people shouldn't park these EVs in their garages or near their homes because they can spontaneously explode into fires and burn down the house.

NHTSA is the exact opposite of a "conspiracy theory."

NHTSA is interested only in data and engineering and safety.

NHTSA is your friendly US government safety agency giving you a wake-up call.

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PS: Links to several news stories about these NHTSA related EV recalls over fire hazard issues are in my posts on the preceding page of this thread.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 13:46:28

mustang19 wrote:Tesla hasn't been growing that fast. California registration is stagnant.

I think theres a hidden lithium shortage and that stuff will collapse soon.


How does one hide a lithium shortage? Using the part of basic economic theory that tends to hold true under, you know, nearly all circumstances, one of the clues of a shortage that just can't be hidden is...well...see for yourself. Those wild and crazy geoscientists say..."Events, Trends, and Issues: Excluding U.S. production, worldwide lithium production in 2019 decreased by 19% to 77,000 tons of lithium content from 95,000 tons of lithium content in 2018 in response to lithium production exceeding
consumption and decreasing lithium prices.


Production decreased last year...apparently because there was too much of the stuff. Where do you suspect this shortage is hiding?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 14:04:23

AdamB wrote:
mustang19 wrote:Tesla hasn't been growing that fast. California registration is stagnant.

I think theres a hidden lithium shortage and that stuff will collapse soon.


How does one hide a lithium shortage? Using the part of basic economic theory that tends to hold true under, you know, nearly all circumstances, one of the clues of a shortage that just can't be hidden is...well...see for yourself. Those wild and crazy geoscientists say..."Events, Trends, and Issues: Excluding U.S. production, worldwide lithium production in 2019 decreased by 19% to 77,000 tons of lithium content from 95,000 tons of lithium content in 2018 in response to lithium production exceeding
consumption and decreasing lithium prices.


Production decreased last year...apparently because there was too much of the stuff. Where do you suspect this shortage is hiding?

His ilk just says dumber and dumber things over time, desperately looking for signs of "collapse".

It's not like one can't search for "rare earth metals", etc. on the internet and see that there are so many sources now that in may cases, the "rare" has become a misnomer.

I searched on "lithium reserves" and got this, dated 8/2020, for example. Huge reserves, well diversified geographically in MANY places.

https://investingnews.com/daily/resourc ... s-country/

It's likely a 5 year old could easily come up with better collapse scenarious in 15 seconds. :roll:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 14:04:34

Yonnipun wrote:The charging time is what kills the electric car for me completely. It takes many hours to charge a battery from dead.


Interesting. Some of the older Tesla chargers could get a Model S to 80% charge in 40 minutes. So if by "many", you had written, "It takes 0.66 hours to change a battery from dead to 80% and OMG is this inconvenient and horrifying", well, that would have perhaps been more accurate?

Yonnipun wrote:You can not go for a longer ride without much discomfort.


Well, my pluggable hybrid is quite comfortable.

Yonnipun wrote:It means you need a second car with ICE or you need to rent a car for it.


What a ridiculous idea! It means you buy a pluggable hybrid. Electric for around town, gasoline for long highway trips. Are you familiar with ANY of the modern slate of hybrid/EV combinations, or are have you been hiding in a cave since the Volt came out and changed the world?


Yonnipun wrote: I like a car with character.


Pffft. Cages are for pussies who need to be wrapped in a safety cage they carry around to protect themselves from their, and other cagers, incompetence. Grow a pair, and join the legions of the fearless!

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Yonnipun wrote:I have seen videos how Teslas explode and burn down completely.


<GASP> Really? Have you seen the charged remains of teh 300 who die each year because their 4 wheeled safety cages containing tens of liters of explosive liquid fuels burn down the cage, AND the driver? Much rather my electric car incinerate itself than my ICE power safety cage incinerate with me in it!!!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 14:28:22

Plantagenet wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:
The fire hazard is the second thing that kills it for me.

I don't know how much of that is real and how much is made up conspiracy theory ...


Its no conspiracy theory.

I did not say it was not real. I said I did not know how much of it is real and that is indisputable truth. (the limits to my knowledge that is.)
But again if there is a problem, and there is evidence that there is, it must have a mechanical, electrical or chemical cause or perhaps a combination of two or more of them or lastly a problem in the software controlling the batteries. Whatever that problem is it can be discovered by investigation and experimentation and the flaw corrected. Perhaps something to think about before letting your EV go off warranty if by then it has not been corrected for your vehicle. As rare as it appears to be at present it would not discourage me from buying an EV though I might not park one in a basement garage.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Yonnipun » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 15:26:21

Some of the older Tesla chargers could get a Model S to 80% charge in 40 minutes.


It takes only a couple of minutes to fill the gas tank of my car. Also the fast charging is not very good for the battery. It looses capacity quickly and it may become more prone to self combustion.

Well, my pluggable hybrid is quite comfortable.


Completely different story. On the other hand they do not get a significantly higher mileage compared to ICE-s.

It means you buy a pluggable hybrid


I see no point because my berlingo 2.0 hdi( bulletproof french diesel) takes only 6,5 litres of diesel per 100 km. I will drive it till the body( galvanized) rusts away. Right now it is 17 years old and has no significant rust on the body.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 16:18:33

Bored with petrol, deICE your classic car and end up with an EV that beats the original on all bases! :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 01:12:02

Yonnipun wrote:
Some of the older Tesla chargers could get a Model S to 80% charge in 40 minutes.


It takes only a couple of minutes to fill the gas tank of my car.


Mine as well. I was just pointing out that you are sadly misinformed with your fears of, if memory serves, "hours and hours of charging".

Yonnipun wrote:Also the fast charging is not very good for the battery. It looses capacity quickly and it may become more prone to self combustion.


Of course!! Tesla's have been running more miles than the engine of your car can be expected to last, with a whopping 15% battery degradation?

Just imagine, when all those hundreds of moving parts in your wear out, a Tesla is still zooming along with like what...the 10 moving parts in its drive train designed for 500,000 miles still doing fine, with a battery still at 85% of original rating?

Yup...fine choice...an ICE powered machine. Well...if they weren't so slow anyway. Didn't you say you liked character in your safety cage? How about Teslas versus Dodge Demons? Does your safety cage have anywhere near this kind of "character"? :lol:

Yonnipun wrote:
Well, my pluggable hybrid is quite comfortable.


Completely different story. On the other hand they do not get a significantly higher mileage compared to ICE-s.


Mine is highly sensitive to wind speed, cage speed, and topography. At 80 mph on the interstate, its gets about the same as any 4 door family sedan, call it a solid 35mpg, without any of that damn southern wind getting in the way. Blue Ridge Parkway? 60mpg, charging the car going downhill, using that to boost up the next uphill. Rolling Virginia countryside, call it 55-60 mph, a solid 45 mpg, edging towards 50 mpg. Around town,mixed electric and gas? Sits in the garage right now, at about 120 mpg. The wife once went 5 months without putting any gas in it.

You got a cage that gets 120 mpg around town do you?

Yonnipun wrote:
It means you buy a pluggable hybrid

I see no point because my berlingo 2.0 hdi( bulletproof french diesel) takes only 6,5 litres of diesel per 100 km.


And it can give a 840 HP Dodge Demon a run for it's money can it?

Aren't the Old World European cities starting to require the capability of cars to run electric in big cities, and then you can use your polluting liquid fuel burning on the highways?

Yonnipun wrote:I will drive it till the body( galvanized) rusts away. Right now it is 17 years old and has no significant rust on the body.


So....clapped out piles of European crap have character do they? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 04:55:44

So....clapped out piles of European crap have character do they?


I like berlingo because it is practical, quite powerful and galvanized. The diesel engine is bulletproof. They go 500000 miles with no problems . I will drive it till it is dead and by dead I mean when the body has so much rust that it can not go through the MOT anymore.

Take a look at that car, it was designed for bad roads back in a day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZYddbACEGk&ab_channel=ArttiArtimmainen

You can go flat out with these on bad russian roads. Very comfortable cars. I have heard that Tesla is pretty bumpy even on regular roads. I like comfy ride. French have always made quite comfortable cars. I hate cars with pumpy ride.

Just imagine, when all those hundreds of moving parts in your wear out, a Tesla is still zooming along with like what...the 10 moving parts in its drive train designed for 500,000 miles still doing fine, with a battery still at 85% of original rating?


Nice marketing fairy tale. Real life is probably not so beautiful. I use my car as a workhorse and do not baby it in the garage and drive only on ideal roads. We have salt on the road during winters , we have gravel roads. I go wherever I want to go. It is a tool for me not a beautiful toy to play with.

Mine is highly sensitive to wind speed, cage speed, and topography. At 80 mph on the interstate, its gets about the same as any 4 door family sedan, call it a solid 35mpg, without any of that damn southern wind getting in the way. Blue Ridge Parkway? 60mpg, charging the car going downhill, using that to boost up the next uphill. Rolling Virginia countryside, call it 55-60 mph, a solid 45 mpg, edging towards 50 mpg. Around town,mixed electric and gas? Sits in the garage right now, at about 120 mpg. The wife once went 5 months without putting any gas in it.


Tell me about your average mpg. I do not care about other numbers. Mine is 37 mpg. Do not talle me about the numbers you get from the computer. Fill the tank , drive the car and fill the tank again and see how much it consumed for the miles it got between those filling.

Mine as well. I was just pointing out that you are sadly misinformed with your fears of, if memory serves, "hours and hours of charging".


I am talking about full electric cars. Those take hours and hours to fill from dead. It is simple physics. You can not push a hugh amount of energy into the battery without explosion or fire. Simple as that. But let me give you an example why this is not possible. Lets say we need to fill the battery of a 100kwh Tesla in 5 minutes. We need a very powerful charger for that , at least 1200 kw charger when we do not consider losses. Let see how much current this charger is going to suck from the grid. I=1200000w/230V=5217Amps. Imagine the wire that should be used to deliver that kind of power into the battery without burnind down the place. Also, the typical circuit braker of the house is only 25 Amps. You need to buy more amps for your home, and it would be very costly. Basically they need to build a new substation into you back yard to get those amps.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 08:25:59

Don't exaggerate.
If you were charging a 85kwh Tesla battery from dead flat using 240 Volt house current and fifty amps you get 50*240*7.5 hours=90KWHs.
So there is no need for more then a fifty amp 240v service and most cars will be charged up within a couple of hours of being plugged in with normal driver usage of less then 100 miles a day.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 11:52:42

Yonnipun wrote:
So....clapped out piles of European crap have character do they?


I like berlingo because it is practical, quite powerful and galvanized.


Everyone should be happy with their safety cage purchase.

Yonniput wrote: The diesel engine is bulletproof. They go 500000 miles with no problems . I will drive it till it is dead and by dead I mean when the body has so much rust that it can not go through the MOT anymore.


Diesels certainly have better longevity than regular gas stuff, although I am of the opinion that it is all in the care and feeding. Regardless, if either of them is powering 4 wheels, you know what you are dealing with from a 2 wheeled perspective.


Yonniput wrote: It is a tool for me not a beautiful toy to play with.


By your description it sure sounds like something...utilitarian. Whatever happened to your requirement of character and whatnot?

Yonniput wrote:Tell me about your average mpg. I do not care about other numbers.


I told you more than just average numbers. I apologize for drowning you in actual information.

Yonniput wrote: Mine is 37 mpg.


Unless I'm going 80 mph on gas through Kansas, this is more like my minimum. I'm surprised a diesel doesn't average better.

Yonniput wrote: Do not talle me about the numbers you get from the computer. Fill the tank , drive the car and fill the tank again and see how much it consumed for the miles it got between those filling.


And don't tell your grandfather how to suck eggs. What kind of morons do you hang out with that would even suggest trusting the cars computer?


AdamB wrote:Mine as well. I was just pointing out that you are sadly misinformed with your fears of, if memory serves, "hours and hours of charging".


Yonniput wrote:I am talking about full electric cars.


And yet you didn't mention that. Pay attention. My first response to you was how long old Tesla's charge up, in fractions of an hour, with a majority of battery filled. You know..."full electric cars".

Yonniput wrote:Those take hours and hours to fill from dead. It is simple physics.


A) Go back and read the stat I provided.
B) You don't apparently know dick about physics, claiming they are contradicted by real life working systems.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 11:56:54

vtsnowedin wrote:Don't exaggerate.
If you were charging a 85kwh Tesla battery from dead flat using 240 Volt house current and fifty amps you get 50*240*7.5 hours=90KWHs.
So there is no need for more then a fifty amp 240v service and most cars will be charged up within a couple of hours of being plugged in with normal driver usage of less then 100 miles a day.


Those of us who charge on household current, and aren't trying to use their electrics as some sort of delivery vehicle putting hundreds of miles a day on the thing, barely even use a couple of hours ( I don't like filling to full, or draining to empty).

Mine is charging in the garage right now. The wife is bound to want to run somewhere.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 12:46:34

vtsnowedin wrote:Don't exaggerate.
If you were charging a 85kwh Tesla battery from dead flat using 240 Volt house current and fifty amps you get 50*240*7.5 hours=90KWHs.
So there is no need for more then a fifty amp 240v service and most cars will be charged up within a couple of hours of being plugged in with normal driver usage of less then 100 miles a day.



I made the calculation for 5 minutes. If you have patience to wait 2 hours in the charging station , fine by me.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 13:01:36

Unless I'm going 80 mph on gas through Kansas, this is more like my minimum. I'm surprised a diesel doesn't average better.


Wind resistance is quite high , the car is quite high. I also do not baby it, the petal goes to metal constantly. If you are intrested then the same engine made into the Quinesse book in 2004. Here is the story:

You may recall a Peugeot 406 Diesel set a world record in 2002, driven by John who is a multiple fuel economy world record holder, when it travelled from Melbourne to Rockhampton on a single tank of fuel. The car covered a staggering [b]2348 km's in real day-to-day driving condtitions on less than 70 litres of Diesel.[/b]

"With three fuel economy world records belonging to Peugeot, I truly believe that they build the most economical cars in the world'' said John.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 16:07:01

Yonnipun wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Don't exaggerate.
If you were charging a 85kwh Tesla battery from dead flat using 240 Volt house current and fifty amps you get 50*240*7.5 hours=90KWHs.
So there is no need for more then a fifty amp 240v service and most cars will be charged up within a couple of hours of being plugged in with normal driver usage of less then 100 miles a day.



I made the calculation for 5 minutes. If you have patience to wait 2 hours in the charging station , fine by me.

I expect the cyber truck to need about one hour to charge up in New Jersey on my way to my daughters house in Maryland which will make a good lunch break after driving 300 miles through Vermont and New York. Recharge in Maryland at my daughters charging station then one more lunch break on I-95 on my way to Atlanta and Daughter 243. Any trip longer then that and we will fly. And those are once or twice a year trips so in it's lifetime the cyber truck will get fast charged less then fifty times and will spend most of it's life with the battery between 70 and 95% charged.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 19:13:08

Yonnipun wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Don't exaggerate.
If you were charging a 85kwh Tesla battery from dead flat using 240 Volt house current and fifty amps you get 50*240*7.5 hours=90KWHs.
So there is no need for more then a fifty amp 240v service and most cars will be charged up within a couple of hours of being plugged in with normal driver usage of less then 100 miles a day.



I made the calculation for 5 minutes. If you have patience to wait 2 hours in the charging station , fine by me.


And you missed the information I already provided. 0.66 hours. 80% charge on a vehicle with 200+ miles of range, so call it 160 miles for 40 minutes of charge. And those are the older, slower charges. Do try and keep up. Expand your mind a little. Learn something. It isn't hard. But continuing to repeat a thing, after you find out it is wrong, is just lying.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 19:25:54

Yonnipun wrote:
Unless I'm going 80 mph on gas through Kansas, this is more like my minimum. I'm surprised a diesel doesn't average better.


Wind resistance is quite high , the car is quite high. I also do not baby it, the petal goes to metal constantly. If you are intrested then the same engine made into the Quinesse book in 2004. Here is the story:

You may recall a Peugeot 406 Diesel set a world record in 2002, driven by John who is a multiple fuel economy world record holder, when it travelled from Melbourne to Rockhampton on a single tank of fuel. The car covered a staggering [b]2348 km's in real day-to-day driving condtitions on less than 70 litres of Diesel.[/b]


Excellent story. But not yours is it. And an exception, if it qualifies as a record. So here is story, from run of the mill folks not trying to break records. My wife works in a 5 person group doing what she does for a living. Her boss has one of the older Model S's. It has crossed the country several times (3,000 km) without using a drop of fuel!! And even more amazingly? It has booked a staggering 152,000 km to date without using a drop of fuel either! The point being, what passes for record breaking efficient in the ICE world is nothing but a joke compared to modern transportation.

Yonniput wrote:"With three fuel economy world records belonging to Peugeot, I truly believe that they build the most economical cars in the world'' said John.


Obviously John hasn't met any run of the mill EV owner, any one of which can whip it up all over your Peugeot while still being able to run the quarter mile with a Dodge Demon. Now there is a car with character, one that can both beat it up on anything less than a monster muscle car and within a week of driving break the record for how far a Peugeot can go on a tank of liquid fuel!!!

The future...thy name is electric!!!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 21 Nov 2020, 21:22:28

The future...thy name is electric!!!


I doubt it. When the hoax called global warming is exposed, ICE-s come back with full force. It takes a little time but soon people will see that there is no global warming and there is no sea level rise. They will see that all of those so called feedback loops like methan dragons and clathrate guns turned out to be false. They also notice that there is no peak oil , on the contrary, the world is awashed with it. It takes some time, we need to wait a little, but you can not fool people for decades.
ICE-s are quite efficient and do not pollute much anymore. I have read that a modern diesel actually cleans the air of the big city. They are so clean now.
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