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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 08 Mar 2020, 13:18:40

Just because you have prejudices and assumptions rattling around in your coggin' noggin, it doesn't mean that they have any correspondence to reality.

"vegetarian and vegan women have a lower risk of overweight and obesity than women who eat meat"

https://www.vivahealth.org.uk/veggies-weigh-less

The percentages of participants with normal weights varied from 78.8% for vegans to 67.7% for omnivores; 8.7% of vegans were underweight, which was comparable with vegetarians and pesco-vegetarians. The prevalence of overweight and obesity was the highest for the omnivores, respectively 20.6% and 8.4%, and lowest for vegans


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 09:58:34

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... vegetarian


The wurst is over: why Germany now loves to go vegetarian


More than 40% of Germans are cutting down on meat, and vegan burgers are a shopping mall staple
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby REAL Green » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 10:23:03

dohboi wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/27/the-wurst-is-over-why-germany-land-of-schnitzels-now-loves-to-go-vegetarian The wurst is over: why Germany now loves to go vegetarian More than 40% of Germans are cutting down on meat, and vegan burgers are a shopping mall staple


This whole idea of meat eating is killing the planet is nonsense. Humans are killing the planet with consumption and overpopulation. Vegans have high food miles and eat out of season produce. Many vegans are rich and like to consume lots of other things. I am not impressed with a vegan thinking he is saving the planet then drives on a trip somewhere or lives in a huge house. This fake green nonsense gets old. It is just more of the fake green righteousness that is delusional.

Meat is a legitimate source of calories for humans. If meat were produced differently it would not be any more destructive than vegan. Much of the earth cannot support vegan food production. Vegan has a place in the human diet in a macro sense not the place. You can't feed almost 8BIL people with vegan. This is not going to happen mainly becuase it could not be scaled up. A balanced approach to this issue is warranted. Less meat eating is important. Definitely less industrial animal operations should be pushed with policy. More people need to be raising their own meat locally and on grass or in the case of poultry, free range with locally grown grain supplements. More rabbits should be raised. I could go on and on. BTW, Germans are not going to reduce their meat eating much. The article is more fake news exaggeration.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 16:31:29

"Humans are killing the planet with consumption..."

Yes, including over-consumption of badly produced meat...

"If..."

But almost no meat is currently produced in ecologically sustainable ways, and it is probably impossible to supply all of the current demand for meat in an ecologically sustainable way

That some vegans happen to have unsustainable lifestyles is irrelevant to the discussion.

Unless you think it likely that the meat industry is going to suddenly and massively change its ways, the fastest way to crash ag-based GHG emissions is for lots of people to eat a lot less meat--though it's not strictly necessary for anyone to necessarily become totally vegan to reach these goals, it makes it a heck of a lot easily for those who have trouble cutting back on their meat diet if lots of people do take that ultimate step, so you should be thanking every vegan you know, if you choose to continue a relatively high meat diet :)

Fortunately, lots of people seem to be ignoring misleading messages like the one here from 'realgreen' (who has just proved s/he is anything but), and are moving toward more plant based diets, as shown by the article just cited
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby REAL Green » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 18:14:33

dohboi wrote:"Humans are killing the planet with consumption..." Yes, including over-consumption of badly produced meat...


Agreed

dohboi wrote:But almost no meat is currently produced in ecologically sustainable ways, and it is probably impossible to supply all of the current demand for meat in an ecologically sustainable way


No modern foods are produced in an ecologically sustainable way.

dohboi wrote:That some vegans happen to have unsustainable lifestyles is irrelevant to the discussion.


Most vegans live unsustainable lifestyles. This is totally relevant to the discussion. You can separate out the issues. They are all related.

dohboi wrote:Unless you think it likely that the meat industry is going to suddenly and massively change its ways, the fastest way to crash ag-based GHG emissions is for lots of people to eat a lot less meat--though it's not strictly necessary for anyone to necessarily become totally vegan to reach these goals, it makes it a heck of a lot easily for those who have trouble cutting back on their meat diet if lots of people do take that ultimate step, so you should be thanking every vegan you know, if you choose to continue a relatively high meat diet :)


You are oblivious to the reality of the food industry and food supply. How are you planning on crashing the meat industry and making up for it with everything else? Not going to happen. I totally agree we need to eat more plant-based products produced locally IMA but meat can be part of that too. Vegan that get their exotic plant products sourced from all over the world are plenty dirty too. Nothing wrong with cutting back on meat but there is a marginal amount of change possible if you understand growing food and the economics.

dohboi wrote:Fortunately, lots of people seem to be ignoring misleading messages like the one here from 'realgreen' (who has just proved s/he is anything but), and are moving toward more plant based diets, as shown by the article just cited


OH, LOL, dohboi is a cancel culture dude. Cancel culture is for people who can’t handle the truth. I live this business, you just talk about it. You are the one that is misleading with your half thought out comments. Tell me what REAL Green means? In my life system It means relative green and realistic green in localism. It does not mean fake green. That is what you apparently are. I an not afraid to engage people. If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen where it is safe. LOL
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 19:13:46

"we need to eat more plant-based products produced locally..."

We seem to agree on this, and that it probably could be sustainable for most people to include some meat in their diet if it were more sustainably grown. So mostly, let's leave it there

But you seem to have a very warped view of what many vegans (and 'near vegans') actually eat--not a bunch of exotic stuff

As I have said often on these threads---throughout most of history, most cultures have eaten mostly vegan diets most of the time.

In most traditional diets, meat is a luxurious additions for special occasions or guests. Cook books, of course, don't generally reflect this, since they are aimed at the high-end-consumer market, not the 'poverty food' diets that the vast majority mostly eat most of the time
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby REAL Green » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 19:26:40

dohboi wrote:"But you seem to have a very warped view of what many vegans (and 'near vegans') actually eat--not a bunch of exotic stuff


It doesn’t take products being exotic stuff to be shipped across the country and the world. That is the case today with many vegan items especially because people don’t eat seasonally anymore.

dohboi wrote:As I have said often on these threads---throughout most of history, most cultures have eaten mostly vegan diets most of the time.


That is just nonsense. Many cultures have eaten many types of diets.

dohboi wrote:In most traditional diets, meat is a luxurious additions for special occasions or guests. Cook books, of course, don't generally reflect this, since they are aimed at the high-end-consumer market, not the 'poverty food' diets that the vast majority mostly eat most of the time


You are being vague on the subject that is expensive. I do agree meat in the past history was a luxury in many locations but in others meat was more prevalent.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 23:19:46

All the vegans I know (and a good friend of mine is the head of one of the two major vegan organizations in our region) do try to eat mostly local and in season.

You have some kind of odd prejudice bordering on hate against vegans, for some reason. Was an ex-lover a vegan or something? Bad breakup??

And again, the world could exist sustainably with zero vegans even at current populations (as far as diet goes), but the diets of most would have to include very little meat, eggs or dairy on a daily basis, certainly nowhere close to the typical American level of meat consumption (though that is changing).

I was very careful to talk about 'most cultures, most of the time...' yet you counter that 'Many cultures have eaten many types of diets,' which does not contradict my position (and is so blindingly obvious and uninteresting that one wonders why you bothered saying it).

Most people in most cultures are poor. Meat is generally expensive. So generally it has been a rare commodity in most peoples daily diets, again, in most cultures. Pointing out the relatively rare exceptions (Eskimos, for example) in no way contradicts this fact.

Chinese, up until the '60s or so, on average only had the equivalent of about one hamburger a month. But even that average probably meant that the richest ate most of the meat, and the poor mostly didn't eat meat most of the time, or in very small quantities, basically as a flavoring agent. Similar thing is true for the rest of East and South Asia, where most of the people have lived for many centuries (and still do). It can be hard to accurately count cultures, so maybe I should have said, "most people through most of recorded history have eaten mostly vegan diets most of the time"

To the average American, the diets of most people through history would look like a vegan diet with occasional 'cheating'
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 28 Sep 2020, 06:13:32

dohboi wrote:All the vegans I know (and a good friend of mine is the head of one of the two major vegan organizations in our region) do try to eat mostly local and in season. You have some kind of odd prejudice bordering on hate against vegans, for some reason. Was an ex-lover a vegan or something? Bad breakup??


Please, doh, spare me the drama why would I hate vegans? You other day you had a comment on how the rich are the problem and I argued on how population is also a problem. You tried to shove that down my throat. I think you have a problem with wanting to be right. I am just balancing your extreme comments. Most vegans are rich and rich people consume too much but meat eating is not the biggest issue with consumption. Transport is a bigger issue than meat consumption. I actually am very negative against industrial meat production because of how animals are treated. Apparently you don’t give a shit because nothing was said by you about that. I raise animals so I know animals and the economics of what is and what could be. I raise them more sustainably.

dohboi wrote:And again, the world could exist sustainably with zero vegans even at current populations (as far as diet goes), but the diets of most would have to include very little meat, eggs or dairy on a daily basis, certainly nowhere close to the typical American level of meat consumption (though that is changing).


No, it can’t doh because meat eating is not the only issue with modern human sustainability. Vegan is also an issue as it is currently with food transport issues and preserving food. Your vegan friends are eating out of season fresh produce I imagine. That is most of the time not local. There is also the issue of land use and its sustainability with vegan produced products. You are just talking nonsense trying to bash meat, talk up vegans, and act like anything about the modern life is sustainable. The other big issue is meat is necessary to feed the world because of the amount of food needed to feed 8BIL and the reality of 8BIL and land use. A significant amount of the world land will only support grazing. Lots of land could be taken out of grain production going to animals and instead feed people. There is also the situation of a permaculture farm with a more balanced carbon and nutrient cycle of production including animals. Animals can be raised differently and be more sustainable. What about all the vegans with dogs and cats? Are you going to recommend we need to eliminate our pets? Vegans lifestyles are a niche when reality tested for sustainability. Too much hype is made by them. Many are righteous liberals hating the meat eating deplorables.

dohboi wrote:I was very careful to talk about 'most cultures, most of the time...' yet you counter that 'Many cultures have eaten many types of diets,' which does not contradict my position (and is so blindingly obvious and uninteresting that one wonders why you bothered saying it). ).


You are saying “most” “most of the time” is acceptable? I don’t. Some do and some are more plant based. Many were not and are not.

dohboi wrote:Most people in most cultures are poor. Meat is generally expensive. So generally it has been a rare commodity in most peoples daily diets, again, in most cultures. Pointing out the relatively rare exceptions (Eskimos, for example) in no way contradicts this fact.


Most is not acceptable in my book, Doh. You are grasping there. Yes, many poor of the world don’t even get enough food period. Many eat lots of fish or supplement with bush meat. The reason many don’t include meat in their diet is overpopulation or location.

dohboi wrote:Chinese, up until the '60s or so, on average only had the equivalent of about one hamburger a month. But even that average probably meant that the richest ate most of the meat, and the poor mostly didn't eat meat most of the time, or in very small quantities, basically as a flavoring agent. Similar thing is true for the rest of East and South Asia, where most of the people have lived for many centuries (and still do). It can be hard to accurately count cultures, so maybe I should have said, "most people through most of recorded history have eaten mostly vegan diets most of the time"


Again you are struggling to save face. Many overpopulated cultures don’t eat meat but not because they don’t want to. You are being too expansive with far too many holes in your argument and for a carbon issue that is not the most important issue.

dohboi wrote:To the average American, the diets of most people through history would look like a vegan diet with occasional 'cheating'


There you go pointing fingers at the Americans. What about the other Anglos and Europe? LOL
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 28 Sep 2020, 08:34:25

You seem to have given up on cogent arguments, and continue to have reading difficulties, so not much use continuing right now. I have to go make a bunch of nutritious vegan chili to feed my neighbors. Best wishes in difficult times
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 28 Sep 2020, 08:41:38

dohboi wrote:You seem to have given up on cogent arguments, and continue to have reading difficulties, so not much use continuing right now. I have to go make a bunch of nutritious vegan chili to feed my neighbors. Best wishes in difficult times


Looking in the mirror are we? Just put me on ignore and that will solve your problem.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 17 Nov 2020, 22:49:54

"Many overpopulated cultures don’t eat meat but not because they don’t want to"

Irrelevant.

Many overpopulated cultures don't drive cars much and walk or bike instead, but not because they don't want to.

Do you propose that this is a valid argument against biking and walking??

Meanwhile:

How shifting from meat-heavy to plant-based diets can help allay the climate crisis

A new study shows that moving to a plant-based diet is critical, but governments have been slow to act.

https://www.vox.com/21562639/climate-ch ... meat-dairy

...A new study published in Science reveals just how important tackling food-related emissions is to mitigating the swiftly accelerating climate crisis.

... food system emissions ... alone will most likely put the Paris agreement climate targets out of reach.

Even if all non-food greenhouse gas emissions were cut off today, the researchers project that food systems emissions would cause us to cross the threshold of 1.5 degrees Celsius temperature rise around the middle of the century...
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby JuanP » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 01:10:44

People who breed unsustainably are killing the planet, not meat eaters! Humans have been eating meat since before we were humans, and the planet had no problem with that. The problem is NOT eating meat; the problem is there are too many humans in the world! If you had no children and sterilized yourself, like I did, then feel free to eat all the meat you want because you are NOT part of the problem.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dissident » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 01:24:52

JuanP wrote:People who breed unsustainably are killing the planet, not meat eaters! Humans have been eating meat since before we were humans, and the planet had no problem with that. The problem is NOT eating meat; the problem is there are too many humans in the world! If you had no children and sterilized yourself, like I did, then feel free to eat all the meat you want because you are NOT part of the problem.


It is not only population size, it is the economic footprint. The world's poor majority is not having the impact of the "rich" minority. All economies are heat engines and maximize entropy. The more developed, the more efficient at entropy maximization. A good metric for the impact are the CO2 emissions per capita.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 01:31:59

Good points, dis...well put!
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 10:04:31

Dohboi, why do you are afraid of climate change? What makes you think that the climate is changing? Do you belive that a trace gas ( only 0,04% of an atmosphere) could somehow change the climate?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Peak_Yeast » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 11:54:47

Yeah - lets kill all Sharks, Lions, dogs, cats - in short all carnivorous birds, fish, mammals and insects....

Im sure it sounds as stupid as I think it sounds...

The problem is not people eating meat - it is too many people on a too small earth. Period.

Going vegan is only postponing and going further down the road of stupidity that we are already on. Nothing else.

I can accept vegan, but only AFTER we have addressed the REAL problem: Overpopulation
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 12:22:19

Ton wrote: "...why do you are..."

Why are you afraid of coherent English? :) :) (And coherent thought!) :)

PY, see dis's excellent points above
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 08:07:58

Dohboi, I would like to point out that CO2 has no efect on climate. The climate is not changing, why should it? The weather is changing. If we compare the same date but different years we can see very dramatic differences in temperatures. For example in 2012 we had very cold winter here with plenty of snow. Last winter we did not have snow at all. It is weather that is changing not global warming caused by CO2. CO2 has no ability to rise the temperature because in order to rise temperature it needs to add more energy but CO2 is not an energy source. It is in fact a mass that requires energy to heat up.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 18:41:22

Yonnipun wrote:Dohboi, I would like to point out that CO2 has no efect on climate. The climate is not changing, why should it? The weather is changing. If we compare the same date but different years we can see very dramatic differences in temperatures. For example in 2012 we had very cold winter here with plenty of snow. Last winter we did not have snow at all. It is weather that is changing not global warming caused by CO2. CO2 has no ability to rise the temperature because in order to rise temperature it needs to add more energy but CO2 is not an energy source. It is in fact a mass that requires energy to heat up.

Get a RUDIMENTARY scientific education, and get back to us. Hint: Intuitive ramblings from those without scientific education aren't impressive compared to scientific knowledge.

But by all means, pretend outliers are more important than trends. It's a favorite tactic of science deniers. :roll:

In the REAL universe, measured by man re scientific measurement, C02 levels are why normal Venus temperatures melt lead. :idea:

They're also why in the world with science beyond Trumpist denial, AGW exists.

But keep blabbering. No doubt, some science denialists who are desperate to make their case will believe you. :shock:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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