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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 26 Oct 2020, 18:27:08

Diemos,

Nice.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 12 Nov 2020, 16:16:43

This Atlantic/Gulf Hurricane season has been a doozy. Tropical Storms/Hurricanes acting like Arnold Swartzernegger as the Terminator, coming to life repeatedly after supposedly dying out. The winds, the rains, the continual flooding experienced in the U.S. continental South East. This appears to be a new norm. Will it last? Probably. Will it get even worst in this decade? Maybe.

Wish we had some of their water. The entire West is drying out. Forget about petroleum pipelines from the tar sands. I think we need a water pipeline instead.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 12 Nov 2020, 16:26:00

Wow, yeah, I see what you mean...I hadn't looked at the Drought Monitor map recently:

https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 17 Nov 2020, 18:38:58

Simulations Suggest Geoengineering Would Not Stop Global Warming If Greenhouse Gasses Continue to Increase


https://phys.org/news/2020-11-simulatio ... asses.html
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 18 Nov 2020, 23:51:24

dohboi wrote:Simulations Suggest Geoengineering Would Not Stop Global Warming If Greenhouse Gasses Continue to Increase


https://phys.org/news/2020-11-simulatio ... asses.html


There's no escape. Hell on earth is coming.

Trees are gonna burn....ice is gonna melt.....crops are gonna fail.......people are gonna go hungry.

Its gonna be just about as bad as it can be.......

......and then on top of everything we're gonna have senile old Joe Biden in charge telling us that the Paris Accords are gonna save us.

SHEESH!!!!!!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Yonnipun » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 08:26:26

CO2 has no ability to heat up earth. It is actually a mass that needs to be heated up by sun. Just like all the other matter on earth. Without the sun the earth would turn into giant ice ball in 24 hours.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby diemos » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 10:02:46

Yonnipun wrote:CO2 has no ability to heat up earth. It is actually a mass that needs to be heated up by sun. Just like all the other matter on earth. Without the sun the earth would turn into giant ice ball in 24 hours.


Correct (not the 24 hours part, a bit longer than that), but irrelevant.

Energy being absorbed from the sun has to be balanced by infrared being emitted into space to keep the system in balance.

The sun's output is reasonably constant and it's being monitored. What's changing is the amount of CO2 in the air which acts as a blanket to impeded the ability of infrared light to escape the earth's surface and reach space. So the earth's surface has to heat up to compensate for that.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Yonnipun » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 11:34:12

Diemos, the CO2 absorbs and emits infrared light . It does not block it. It absorbs heat and emits it like every other matter on earth. There is nothing special in CO2 or in any other gas. They are just a matter that needs to be heated up by the sun. Nothing more. Global warming is hoax and so is global cooling. There never was an ice age as we have been told. The so called "ice age" was just that the continents moved during millions and millions of years and reached to the points on earth where " ice age" is present today.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 12:01:26

Yonnipun wrote:Diemos, the CO2 absorbs and emits infrared light . It does not block it. It absorbs heat and emits it like every other matter on earth. There is nothing special in CO2 or in any other gas. They are just a matter that needs to be heated up by the sun. Nothing more. Global warming is hoax and so is global cooling. There never was an ice age as we have been told. The so called "ice age" was just that the continents moved during millions and millions of years and reached to the points on earth where " ice age" is present today.


The evidence contradicts your conclusions.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 12:52:24

Yonnipun wrote:Global warming is hoax and so is global cooling. There never was an ice age as we have been told.


Thanks for my laugh of the day!

Cheers!

AND Have a wonderful day!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby diemos » Thu 19 Nov 2020, 22:26:00

Yonnipun wrote:Diemos, the CO2 absorbs and emits infrared light.


It's a standard physics 101 problem to calculate what the average temperature of the earth would be if there were no atmosphere and infrared emitted by the ground had a straight shot to space. It would be about 60F cooler than it is.

The atmosphere absorbs part of the infrared emitted by the ground and emits half of it toward the ground and half toward space. That's what keeps the surface hotter than it would otherwise be.

Yonnipun wrote:There is nothing special in CO2 or in any other gas.


The O2, N2 and argon that make up the bulk of the atmosphere are transparent to infrared. The gases that are only translucent to infrared are water vapor, co2, methane and other trace gases. They are what control the greenhouse effect.

The first paper to mention that changing co2 levels would have an effect on ground temperatures was published in 1896.
https://www.rsc.org/images/Arrhenius189 ... 173546.pdf
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby diemos » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 00:16:15

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Yonnipun » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 04:21:34

The atmosphere absorbs part of the infrared emitted by the ground and emits half of it toward the ground and half toward space. That's what keeps the surface hotter than it would otherwise be.


It is not possible to bounce back heat that way. Think about it.Lets say you have a wood burning furnace to heat up the room you live. Lets say the furnace heats up the table in that room. The table starts to emit infrared. By your logic it would start to back heat the furnace and the temperature of the furnace would rise because of it. We have now created a so called feedback loop where both of those items are going to heat up eachother. This is clearly wrong. The furnace is the heat source and it heats up the table. The table is not going to heat up the furnace. Simple as that. Some global warming supporters go even further saying there would be a thermal runaway. The furnace and the table would eventually heat themselves up so much that they would burn down. We know from practice and common sense that this is not the case and it is actually quite hard and requires a lot of wood and effort to keep the room warm during cold times.
So in overall the atmosphere can not change the overall temperature of earth. It reduces the day time temperatures( without it the temperature would be so high the water would boil) and it increases night time temperatures( without it the water would freeze during the night). Simple as that.
The greenhouse effect is a hoax, nothing more.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby diemos » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 06:34:13

Yonnipun wrote:It is not possible to bounce back heat that way. Think about it.


Except that's exactly what happens.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby diemos » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 06:56:11

Yonnipun wrote:Lets say the furnace heats up the table in that room. The table starts to emit infrared. By your logic it would start to back heat the furnace and the temperature of the furnace would rise because of it. We have now created a so called feedback loop where both of those items are going to heat up eachother. This is clearly wrong.


The only thing that is wrong is that the room is not a closed system, heat escapes through the walls and you need to include that path before you can calculate the equilibrium temperature.

Otherwise you're spot on. Everything in the room is radiating infrared and everything is absorbing infrared from the other objects. That's one of the heat flow paths, the others are conduction and convection.

Since the earth sits in a vacuum there is no conduction or convection. Energy coming in from the sun as visible light has to balance energy leaving as infrared light. If there's an imbalance then temperature changes until they come back into balance.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dissident » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 12:20:58

Why is every barely aware and uneducated nincompoop assuming their ignorance is more in touch with physical reality than that of generations of real scientists making real observations with real observational equipment. Having to explain basics to clowns who deny CO2 increases have any effect is absurd.

As cited numerous times on this board and something that educated people would know, over 99.99% of the atmospheric composition (O2, N2 and Argon) is translucent to IR. Without trace greenhouse gases and the H2O vapour they help maintain in vapour form in the atmosphere, the Earth would be an ice hell. I have heard all sorts of amateur hacks claim even at seminars that scientists don't account for H2O. No you boneheads, scientists spend a lot of effort understanding H2O vapour and clouds in atmospheric physics and the water cycle is included in every single climate model ever run. There is no point in studying climate without addressing H2O.

The reason why H2O does not drive climate change is because it is not a dry gas. It is a condensing vapour in the range of temperatures found on Earth and those under which life can survive. If CO2, CH4 and other greenhouse gases are removed, the dominant process is freezing out of H2O from the atmosphere at high latitudes. This results in a feedback where less H2O results directly in colder temperatures which results in less H2O vapour. The low latitude evapouration is fixed by the solar intensity so it can never compensate for the loss feedback with the level of solar insolation hitting the Earth. Sure, the Earth can be moved closer to the Sun where the oceans can be evapourtated and would have never formed in the first place. Without liquid water CO2 would not have been removed from the atmosphere into CaCO3 and the Earth would be like Venus.

The fossil record clearly demonstrates that global warming events were all tied to CO2 changes and not to H2O self-acceleration. Not on Earth anyway. Maybe there are orbits closer to the Sun which allow such H2O driven warming events. So the lower intensity solar output during the early states of a planetary system formation would allow water to cool off enough to form oceans. But at later times as the (yellow) star's output increases (for our system it has increased about 30%) the system becomes unstable. Life on such a planet would be wiped out since any runaway H2O driven warming would be intense (Venus-like conditions). Also, such a planet would lose a lot of H2O to space over its billions of years of existence. So it would eventually end up being colder than Earth if not an ice hell.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 13:03:01

diemos wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:It is not possible to bounce back heat that way. Think about it.


Except that's exactly what happens.


Every so often, Yonnipun (must be a pun though) comes back with the same regurgitated, already discredited arguments as if he purposely refuses to learn, but actually is just trolling us.

I pointed out last time, that that is EXACTLY what is happening. You, Yon-pun, are presenting arguments while leaving out key scientific understandings of the process (that have been known for almost one hundred years now).

Infrared bouncing around, yes there is some typical thermodynamics involved about hot bodies transferring their heat to colder bodies.

However, the effect of reflection, of the mirror, of radiation is quantum mechanics (which you refuse to either learn nor acknowledge) which was discovered in the 1920s-30s. So, yes mirrors can reflect energy without themselves getting substantially hot. They absorb the energy and then re-emit it and the net effect is that the molecule doesn't even get classically 'hot' in any fashion.

All molecules are NOT the same, as you incorrectly stated. They are not behaving as billiard balls, but each has it's own signature of vibrations that it responds to (according to quantum mechanics, as they conceptually behave as tuning forks, which is not so difficult to imagine).

So, while you say 'impossible', I'm telling you it is quantum mechanics, that new science discovered 100 years ago to explain phenomena that classical thermodynamics (discovered 200 years ago or 100 years before QM) could not explain, which is why your arguments completely fall apart Yon-pun.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 13:28:25

I don't have anything against Pun and I mean no disrespect, but I think arguing with people like him is pointless. His ignorance is so overwhelming that he will NEVER get it. I don't argue with people like that; they are best ignored. Life is too short to waste time on pointless pursuits!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Yonnipun » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 13:50:35

Except that's exactly what happens.


It can not happen because heat flows from hot to cold not the other way . This is the second law of thermodynamics. Just think about it and use your own brain. Do not read fairy tales from global warming believers. They are quite innovative to think up various"feedback loops" that would cook the earth but if you really think about with your own mind then you see it is a scam. It is actually very hard to heat something up during the winter. You need wood and a lot of effort to keep the house warm. No gas has the ability to rise the temperature of earth. It needs energy from the sun to heat up.
It is like with the money. Once you have spent the dollar it does not bounce back into your pocket. You have lost it and can not spend it again and again and again.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 20 Nov 2020, 14:03:56

JuanP wrote:I don't have anything against Pun and I mean no disrespect, but I think arguing with people like him is pointless. His ignorance is so overwhelming that he will NEVER get it. I don't argue with people like that; they are best ignored. Life is too short to waste time on pointless pursuits!


I know what you mean. Sometimes, I just post for general readers of this message board.
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