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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 14:05:23

A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 16:21:08

vtsnowedin wrote:A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)

Well, the 2018 Toyota Prius Prime apparently DOES use the engine to drive in cold temperatures, when the driver wants plenty of heat (cabin set to 70 degrees). The car decides how to manage the heat, whether from the engine or via direct electric heating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wmhadr9CgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR8KAcr8hC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3BXdImR7oQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90p-DugEpmc

This fourth test was not using the heat, and apparently it will try to run all it can in BEV mode if you don't ask for heat, even on a very cold day. Whether 40 below will be like when it's 15ish, I have no clue.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/documen ... 47D44U.pdf

On page 417:

Since the gasoline engine starts up and cuts out automatically
when cold, warming up the engine is unnecessary. Moreover, frequently
driving short distances will cause the engine to repeatedly
warm up, which can lead to excess fuel consumption.


Same exact thing for the 2020 version, per the same page of its manual.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 18:42:40

After my last post and was away from the computer it occurred to me that the Ice engine did not have to be connected to the cabin as running it's coolant lines through the heat pump would serve as well.
Those videos are interesting and show that Toyota has considered the problem and dealt with it but I find it annoying that it decides when to turn on and off reguardless of what you want or need it to do.
I also find that screen extremely annoying with graphs that aren't labeled and little rows of gas pumps that convey no information. etc.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 13:52:35

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)

Well, the 2018 Toyota Prius Prime apparently DOES use the engine to drive in cold temperatures, when the driver wants plenty of heat (cabin set to 70 degrees). The car decides how to manage the heat, whether from the engine or via direct electric heating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wmhadr9CgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR8KAcr8hC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3BXdImR7oQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90p-DugEpmc

This fourth test was not using the heat, and apparently it will try to run all it can in BEV mode if you don't ask for heat, even on a very cold day. Whether 40 below will be like when it's 15ish, I have no clue.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/documen ... 47D44U.pdf

On page 417:

Since the gasoline engine starts up and cuts out automatically
when cold, warming up the engine is unnecessary. Moreover, frequently
driving short distances will cause the engine to repeatedly
warm up, which can lead to excess fuel consumption.


Same exact thing for the 2020 version, per the same page of its manual.


Kind of a silly test IMO as anyone who has tried running a far without the heater on a cold day quickly discovers the windshield fogs from your breath and leaves you driving blind.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 14:19:07

If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 14:49:56

vtsnowedin wrote:If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.


Agree with the first statement but the second is rather a strong non sequitur in regards EV videos isn't it?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 04:17:22

Subjectivist wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.


Agree with the first statement but the second is rather a strong non sequitur in regards EV videos isn't it?

No my first statement refereed to all silly youtube test videos not just EV related ones. Shooting fry pans are among the silliest so is a logical following statement.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 12:01:33

Tanada wrote:Kind of a silly test IMO as anyone who has tried running a far without the heater on a cold day quickly discovers the windshield fogs from your breath and leaves you driving blind.


The horror.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32861126631.html

I really think people should step back and ask themselves what they're really trying to prove with some of these posts.

I also find that there's a wide disconnect between the perceptions of those who have never owned a plugin/BEV and those who have. Those who don't have one tend to be filled with a warchest of reasons not to buy one, some of which are either incorrect, outdated, or soon to be outdated.

Fixating on criticisms of any one specific EV models also is a matter of not seeing the forest through the trees. The available offerings even today were just a pipe-dream a few years ago and consumer choice is set to explode over the next 3-5 years. So even for those who have very specific requirements in a vehicle should be able to find one that ticks every box, if not now, then very soon.

There really IS a lack of perspective with some of the old-time peakers in terms of recognizing how far things have already come and where we're going to wind up. That's the nature of gradual change. Drip by drip things change in a way you don't notice until you sort of awake from your slumber and realize, gee, the world's changed! How the hell did that happen!?!?! Well, it's been happening little by little for many years now. Even things like the dreaded "compliance cars" that people so often disregarded have been important stepping stones for the car companies to figure out how they were going to ramp up.

A lot of this change has been messy and sometimes even cringey but this is most often how progress works. Some degree of experimentation and trial and error is inevitable. The original iPhone was only 2G. It was incredibly slow and it would have been easy to disregard it completely on that basis, ignorant of the fact that things would soon change. That's what's happening here. So when cars have flaws, like clunky infotainment screens, poor efficiency, etc... they are all in the process of learning the ropes. These things will be ironed out.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 20:19:55

I expect more then a bit of that post was directed at me. I am not trying to disparage EVs or promote them. I am considering buying one or perhaps two of them to replace my current vehicles when their time is done. In that regard I am looking for which of the various vehicles now offered or under development will serve my individual needs.
A vehicle that will serve the typical commuter in LA or Atlanta might be a great vehicle for them but fail miserably in my rustic cold weather conditions.
Not to say they should not build those " flatlander always on pavement" cars as there is certainly a market for them but the vehicle I need will have a few extra features that I do expect will cost me more.
I am in no particular hurry so might wait a while to see the second generation of what is now in the pipeline but do not see my criticism of one vehicles features as criticizing all vehicles of the EV type. I am looking for the best of the best for the roads I actually drive.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby sparky » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 02:44:26

.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 08:15:02

sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And a few years ago the electric car number was zero. I see the five year chart for EV sales looking like the Covid-19 death chart in March.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 12:45:17

sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?

Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 14:32:02

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?
Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.


It's called an S curve. It always starts slow and then takes off. When does it take off? When all factors converge such that the normies pile in. We're not quite there yet but we're getting pretty close now. Model 3 was sort of a head-fake because it's a sedan and NOBODY WANTS SEDANS!!! Bolt is an ugly subcompact. The next wave with CUVs, SUVs, and pickups is going to be the moment of truth.

Until then you will continue to have people continue to express their blind-spots.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 14:48:56

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?
Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.


It's called an S curve. It always starts slow and then takes off. When does it take off? When all factors converge such that the normies pile in. We're not quite there yet but we're getting pretty close now. Model 3 was sort of a head-fake because it's a sedan and NOBODY WANTS SEDANS!!! Bolt is an ugly subcompact. The next wave with CUVs, SUVs, and pickups is going to be the moment of truth.

Until then you will continue to have people continue to express their blind-spots.
You have a very valid point there. Once they have EVs in every body type so every customer can have an EV that fits their needs and preferences it will become an apples to apples competition. Considering the market share pickups and SUVs have I am a bit surprised to see it take this long to have EV models in those markets.
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