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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 14:05:23

A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 16:21:08

vtsnowedin wrote:A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)

Well, the 2018 Toyota Prius Prime apparently DOES use the engine to drive in cold temperatures, when the driver wants plenty of heat (cabin set to 70 degrees). The car decides how to manage the heat, whether from the engine or via direct electric heating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wmhadr9CgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR8KAcr8hC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3BXdImR7oQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90p-DugEpmc

This fourth test was not using the heat, and apparently it will try to run all it can in BEV mode if you don't ask for heat, even on a very cold day. Whether 40 below will be like when it's 15ish, I have no clue.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/documen ... 47D44U.pdf

On page 417:

Since the gasoline engine starts up and cuts out automatically
when cold, warming up the engine is unnecessary. Moreover, frequently
driving short distances will cause the engine to repeatedly
warm up, which can lead to excess fuel consumption.


Same exact thing for the 2020 version, per the same page of its manual.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 12 Sep 2020, 18:42:40

After my last post and was away from the computer it occurred to me that the Ice engine did not have to be connected to the cabin as running it's coolant lines through the heat pump would serve as well.
Those videos are interesting and show that Toyota has considered the problem and dealt with it but I find it annoying that it decides when to turn on and off reguardless of what you want or need it to do.
I also find that screen extremely annoying with graphs that aren't labeled and little rows of gas pumps that convey no information. etc.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 13:52:35

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:A careful reading of that and other reports brags about how the electric heat pump works down to a certain temperature without the ICE engine running but never actually says that turning the ice engine on actually helps after you drop down below 14 degrees F. I'm not even sure the ICE engine has coolant lines to the cabin to bring heat in the conventional way.
They add that there is a battery heater that keeps the battery at 32F if plugged in so if you are parked outside you are running an electric heater for the whole belly of the car. That will run about $1.00 a night extra on the electric bill.
Like all good research papers I must conclude that "More research is needed". :)

Well, the 2018 Toyota Prius Prime apparently DOES use the engine to drive in cold temperatures, when the driver wants plenty of heat (cabin set to 70 degrees). The car decides how to manage the heat, whether from the engine or via direct electric heating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wmhadr9CgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR8KAcr8hC0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3BXdImR7oQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90p-DugEpmc

This fourth test was not using the heat, and apparently it will try to run all it can in BEV mode if you don't ask for heat, even on a very cold day. Whether 40 below will be like when it's 15ish, I have no clue.

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/documen ... 47D44U.pdf

On page 417:

Since the gasoline engine starts up and cuts out automatically
when cold, warming up the engine is unnecessary. Moreover, frequently
driving short distances will cause the engine to repeatedly
warm up, which can lead to excess fuel consumption.


Same exact thing for the 2020 version, per the same page of its manual.


Kind of a silly test IMO as anyone who has tried running a far without the heater on a cold day quickly discovers the windshield fogs from your breath and leaves you driving blind.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 14:19:07

If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 13 Sep 2020, 14:49:56

vtsnowedin wrote:If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.


Agree with the first statement but the second is rather a strong non sequitur in regards EV videos isn't it?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 04:17:22

Subjectivist wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:If you set yourself to view all the silly test videos on youtube you will be occupied until at least spring and perhaps beyond as they are posted faster then you can view them.
One of the silliest is shooting cast iron fry pans with various rifle and pistol bullets as if game animals wore cast iron armor.


Agree with the first statement but the second is rather a strong non sequitur in regards EV videos isn't it?

No my first statement refereed to all silly youtube test videos not just EV related ones. Shooting fry pans are among the silliest so is a logical following statement.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 12:01:33

Tanada wrote:Kind of a silly test IMO as anyone who has tried running a far without the heater on a cold day quickly discovers the windshield fogs from your breath and leaves you driving blind.


The horror.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32861126631.html

I really think people should step back and ask themselves what they're really trying to prove with some of these posts.

I also find that there's a wide disconnect between the perceptions of those who have never owned a plugin/BEV and those who have. Those who don't have one tend to be filled with a warchest of reasons not to buy one, some of which are either incorrect, outdated, or soon to be outdated.

Fixating on criticisms of any one specific EV models also is a matter of not seeing the forest through the trees. The available offerings even today were just a pipe-dream a few years ago and consumer choice is set to explode over the next 3-5 years. So even for those who have very specific requirements in a vehicle should be able to find one that ticks every box, if not now, then very soon.

There really IS a lack of perspective with some of the old-time peakers in terms of recognizing how far things have already come and where we're going to wind up. That's the nature of gradual change. Drip by drip things change in a way you don't notice until you sort of awake from your slumber and realize, gee, the world's changed! How the hell did that happen!?!?! Well, it's been happening little by little for many years now. Even things like the dreaded "compliance cars" that people so often disregarded have been important stepping stones for the car companies to figure out how they were going to ramp up.

A lot of this change has been messy and sometimes even cringey but this is most often how progress works. Some degree of experimentation and trial and error is inevitable. The original iPhone was only 2G. It was incredibly slow and it would have been easy to disregard it completely on that basis, ignorant of the fact that things would soon change. That's what's happening here. So when cars have flaws, like clunky infotainment screens, poor efficiency, etc... they are all in the process of learning the ropes. These things will be ironed out.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 14 Sep 2020, 20:19:55

I expect more then a bit of that post was directed at me. I am not trying to disparage EVs or promote them. I am considering buying one or perhaps two of them to replace my current vehicles when their time is done. In that regard I am looking for which of the various vehicles now offered or under development will serve my individual needs.
A vehicle that will serve the typical commuter in LA or Atlanta might be a great vehicle for them but fail miserably in my rustic cold weather conditions.
Not to say they should not build those " flatlander always on pavement" cars as there is certainly a market for them but the vehicle I need will have a few extra features that I do expect will cost me more.
I am in no particular hurry so might wait a while to see the second generation of what is now in the pipeline but do not see my criticism of one vehicles features as criticizing all vehicles of the EV type. I am looking for the best of the best for the roads I actually drive.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby sparky » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 02:44:26

.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 08:15:02

sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And a few years ago the electric car number was zero. I see the five year chart for EV sales looking like the Covid-19 death chart in March.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 12:45:17

sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?

Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 14:32:02

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?
Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.


It's called an S curve. It always starts slow and then takes off. When does it take off? When all factors converge such that the normies pile in. We're not quite there yet but we're getting pretty close now. Model 3 was sort of a head-fake because it's a sedan and NOBODY WANTS SEDANS!!! Bolt is an ugly subcompact. The next wave with CUVs, SUVs, and pickups is going to be the moment of truth.

Until then you will continue to have people continue to express their blind-spots.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 14:48:56

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?
Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.


It's called an S curve. It always starts slow and then takes off. When does it take off? When all factors converge such that the normies pile in. We're not quite there yet but we're getting pretty close now. Model 3 was sort of a head-fake because it's a sedan and NOBODY WANTS SEDANS!!! Bolt is an ugly subcompact. The next wave with CUVs, SUVs, and pickups is going to be the moment of truth.

Until then you will continue to have people continue to express their blind-spots.
You have a very valid point there. Once they have EVs in every body type so every customer can have an EV that fits their needs and preferences it will become an apples to apples competition. Considering the market share pickups and SUVs have I am a bit surprised to see it take this long to have EV models in those markets.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Tue 22 Sep 2020, 07:30:17

I am leaning towards a Toyota or Ford plug-in or maybe a used Leaf. I am putting off a purchase until next year. There is not enough vehicles on the market yet although plenty of used Leaf's even here in the Midwest. If Ford does not introduce an all wheel drive I will likely not look at theirs. The Jeep looks fun but at 25mi all electric range is not enough for me. I need a minimum of around 40mi:

“2021 Jeep Wrangler 4xe plug-in hybrid has 25 miles of electric range”
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021 ... rid-debut/

“After giving us our first look at CES 2020, Jeep finally divulged all of the 2021 Wrangler 4xe plug-in hybrid details on Thursday and I am 100% here for it. Finally, an off-road vehicle that can really tread lightly with 25 miles of electric range -- enough to do the Rubicon Trail -- as well as gobs of torque and that open-air Jeep goodness. The Wrangler 4xe is powered by Jeep's 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine and a 17-kilowatt-hour battery. The turbo engine is good for 270 horsepower and 295 pound-feet of torque, while the eTorque starter-generator adds an additional 44 hp and 39 lb-ft. The electric motor is rated at 134 hp and 181 lb-ft and, all combined, Jeep says the Wrangler 4xe has a total system output of 375 hp and 470 lb-ft. How's that compare to the rest of the Jeep Wrangler's engine options? Quite nicely. The 4xe is absolutely the most powerful engine of the bunch.”
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 22 Sep 2020, 12:10:46

.https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/09/ni ... -heats-up/
The CEO of Nikola Motors, Trevor Milton, has stepped down from the company just as the Securities and Exchange Commission and U.S. Department of Justice begin their investigations into the embattled electric vehicle maker

Milton was accused of operating an “intricate fraud,” by a financial research firm shortly after GM announced it had entered a technical and strategic partnership with the start-up earlier this month. The report accused Nikola of making false claims about and/or exaggerating the capabilities of its electric vehicle technology. Hindenberg Research, which authored the report, also said it had “recorded phone calls, text messages, private emails and behind-the-scenes photographs-detailing dozens of false statements by Nikola Founder Trevor Milton,” and added that it had “never seen this level of deception at a public company, especially of this size.”

Apparently they held a reveal of a mock up truck that actually didn't work. That leaves me wondering just what GM has bought into. Was the hype getting ahead of the development or was there ever any real development going on?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 22 Sep 2020, 12:25:04

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
sparky wrote:.
world sale of petrol cars 60 millions
world sale of electric cars 2 millions
world sale of forklift 3 millions

And? Nothing ever changes?
Just because it will take decades doesn't mean the trend isn't blindingly obvious.


It's called an S curve. It always starts slow and then takes off. When does it take off? When all factors converge such that the normies pile in. We're not quite there yet but we're getting pretty close now. Model 3 was sort of a head-fake because it's a sedan and NOBODY WANTS SEDANS!!! Bolt is an ugly subcompact. The next wave with CUVs, SUVs, and pickups is going to be the moment of truth.

Until then you will continue to have people continue to express their blind-spots.

Even if it ends up being an S curve, I still think it takes decades overall for the fleet to transition to say, over 95% BEV. We have the transitional vehicles, HEV's and PHEV's which already get a huge amount of the benefit, especially in city driving. The third world will be way behind in infrastructure and be significantly behind the first world for the transition.

And there's more at work in consumers' minds (including mine) than economics. Reliability and durability are critical to the middle class, re cars, given their expense and how much we rely on them (at least in the vast majority of the US). One reason I wouldn't even consider a Tesla until the company matures a LOT more is simply maintenance. Having to go to a Tesla service center, out of state, is a no-touch for me. Especially with their abysmal overall build quality. (A major maker with a good rep and lots of dealers would be a different story). I think range anxiety will be a thing for many consumers for a LONG time. Eventually infrastructure and EV normalcy will change that, but not quickly.

This isn't a PC or any simple or cheap consumer product, which will have an obvious and steep S curve at some point. Note -- I'm not at all in denial about the result or the need for the result. Only about how quickly it happens. And I'd prefer to see a BIG FF tax on gas and diesel to greatly incent consumers and car producers to hasten the transition with a big financial incentive, given the reality of AGW. Sadly,I just don't think that's very likely in the US until, say, MUCH of the country is frequently on fire or under threat of massive floods, or water shortages become chronic and widespread, etc.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 22 Sep 2020, 22:17:39

Well I don't want a big FF tax as that will penalize the poor that can't afford to buy a new EV. I want the quality and ability of EVs to improve so they are the logical choice for any prospective buyer. They might get there in two to five years from now and then might hold a better then 50% market share. The US auto fleet turns over about on a fifteen year cycle so if EVs reached that 50% mark in 2025 in 2040 they would still be only half of the USA auto fleet. Even a full ban on new ICE engines would take fifteen years from implementation to change the fleet over completely.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 23 Sep 2020, 07:23:13

Tesla'a Battery day discouraged investors and the stock dropped some 50 Billion dollars in value yesterday. People were hoping for Musk to announce some immediate improvement in battery price and durability and what he actually promised or predicted was that those goals were three years out.

Perhaps seeing one of his competitors having to step down and face fraud charges has made Musk cautious which is a good thing. Now the stock will lose those investors looking for a quick buck and those with more patience can make a longer term investment.
https://www.fidelity.com/news/article/t ... 9P-OUSBS_1
(Reuters) - Investors slashed $50 billion from Tesla Inc's ( TSLA )
Loading... Loading...
market value on Tuesday despite CEO Elon Musk's promise to cut electric vehicle costs so radically that a $25,000 car that drives itself will be possible, but not for at least three years.

Tesla's market cap dropped $20 billion in just two hours after trading closed Tuesday, as Musk and other Tesla executives presented their new battery and manufacturing strategies. Shares closed down 5.6% and dropped another 6.9% after hours.

"Nothing Musk discussed about batteries is a done deal," said Roth Capital Partners analyst Craig Irwin. "There was nothing tangible."

Investors had expected two significant announcements at Musk's oft-touted "Battery Day": The development of a "million mile" battery good for 10 years or more, and a specific cost reduction target -- expressed in dollars per kilowatt-hour -- that would finally drop the price of an electric vehicle below that of a gasoline car.

Musk offered neither. Instead, he promised over the next several years to slash battery costs in half with new technology and processes and deliver an "affordable" electric car.

"In three years . . . we can do a $25,000 car that will be basically on par (with), maybe slightly better than, a comparable gasoline car," Musk said.

Musk acknowledged that Tesla does not have its ambitious new vehicle and battery designs and manufacturing processes fully complete. Tesla has frequently missed production targets set by Musk.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Sun 27 Sep 2020, 06:33:45

“It’s Official — Consumer Reports Confirms EV Owners Spend Half As Much On Maintenance”
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/26/it ... intenance/

“Data is king, and when it comes to information on the frequency of repairs on automobiles, Consumer Reports has more data than anyone. For its latest report, it did a deep dive into the data from its 2019 and 2020 reliability surveys of electric and gasoline powered vehicles. After crunching all the numbers, Consumer Reports says “drivers of electric vehicles are saving an average of 50% on maintenance and repair over the life of a vehicle compared to owners of gas-powered vehicles.”
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