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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 15 Sep 2020, 11:52:25

And it's partly because nations have been utterly failing in even their own self-imposed goals:

World Missing All Targets to Save Nature, UN Warns


https://phys.org/news/2020-09-world-nature.html
https://www.unep-wcmc.org/news/outlook- ... ive-change
Countries are set to miss all of the targets they set themselves a decade ago to preserve nature and save Earth's vital biodiversity, the United Nations said Tuesday.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 15 Sep 2020, 12:54:26

dohboi wrote:And it's partly because nations have been utterly failing in even their own self-imposed goals:

World Missing All Targets to Save Nature, UN Warns


https://phys.org/news/2020-09-world-nature.html
https://www.unep-wcmc.org/news/outlook- ... ive-change
Countries are set to miss all of the targets they set themselves a decade ago to preserve nature and save Earth's vital biodiversity, the United Nations said Tuesday.


And people think if we only all bought a luxury EV the world would be saved. Funny.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby REAL Green » Tue 15 Sep 2020, 13:16:07

mousepad wrote:And people think if we only all bought a luxury EV the world would be saved. Funny.


Exactly, any talk from rich westerners whining about climate change but living a wealthy life is delusional.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 14:22:26

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
dohboi wrote:Interesting point about Soviet security.

But as to your general claim, it doesn't seem to apply to sharks, who have been around in one form or another for nearly half a billion years.

Have thought about them, yet Megalodon is gone...
Great White in his kingdom is superior (albeit can fall prey of orca) but against humans it stands no chance.
Now humans are universal top predator - and perhaps already getting attention of Mother Natures firing squad.


Mother nature clearly erred in producing a Universal top predator not tied to any particular ecosystem. Oops!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby JuanP » Wed 16 Sep 2020, 22:44:50

dohboi wrote:And it's partly because nations have been utterly failing in even their own self-imposed goals:

World Missing All Targets to Save Nature, UN Warns



A goal without a plan is nothing more than a wish.

I never expected any different; it has always been obvious to me that our species is set on a course for total global environmental destruction. It is an inevitable consequence of our species' animal nature. Evolutionary biology guarantees this, IMO. There never was any real hope of not destroying the biosphere, we just thought so.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 17 Sep 2020, 14:42:26

jedrider wrote:Mother nature clearly erred in producing a Universal top predator not tied to any particular ecosystem. Oops!

Perhaps she concluded that multicellular life (and its land based forms in particular) have gone horribly wrong, so some major reset is due.
Also there was a need to return fossilised carbon back to circulation.
It serves no use while deposited underground.
To achieve these goals some exceptional predator have been called for a while but once his mission is over he will be either marginalized or retired for good.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 17 Sep 2020, 15:52:13

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
jedrider wrote:Mother nature clearly erred in producing a Universal top predator not tied to any particular ecosystem. Oops!

Perhaps she concluded that multicellular life (and its land based forms in particular) have gone horribly wrong, so some major reset is due. Also there was a need to return fossilised carbon back to circulation.


Mother nature is fine. What is happening is what happens in a planetary system. Humans are the ones in a quandary thinking they can or can't do this or that as if we have control. We act like this planet is ours. We are doing just what we are supposed to. Other species are in the same situation. This is the nature of life and death or evolution and extinction in the big picture. Humans get too emotional but also too rational about this situation. Humans are extreme in these ways. It just is.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 17 Sep 2020, 16:48:03

"Mother Nature" is of course a metaphor/fantasy, so any statements made about 'her,' one way or the other, are equally subjective/fantasy-based.

The community of life, however, is not 'just fine,' nor are the systems that support it.

We are likely driving the greatest extinction event in the history of complex life on earth, and at a much greater rate than any that preceded it, with no guarantee of ever recovering to pre-human/industrial levels of diversity and vibrancy.

The ocean is acidifying faster than any time in at least the last 200 million years ( to note just one of many ways we are deeply disrupting basic systems that have sustained life on the planet for tens to hundreds of millions of years).

These are not normal events in the history of life. They are extraordinary, and extraordinarily devastating
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 17 Sep 2020, 17:58:29

dohboi wrote:"Mother Nature" is of course a metaphor/fantasy, so any statements made about 'her,' one way or the other, are equally subjective/fantasy-based.

I am not sure.
There is certain logic in working of natural system which rules life here on Earth.
For example it never allows for situation similar to Agent Smith of Matrix to establish and run for long.

These are not normal events in the history of life. They are extraordinary, and extraordinarily devastating

Was happening in the past.
Permian gorgodons and even more so lystrosaurses would have a fascinating story to tell for sure.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 18 Sep 2020, 04:26:05

Yes, EU, sometimes 'fantasies' are true.

But often times people merely use them to project their wishes onto the world, rather than to humbly stand in awe of their power or honor their fragility.

May Perun grant you what you need (which is not necessarily what you want! :) )
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 18 Sep 2020, 06:07:45

Humans put a human face on nature whether it be "mother nature" or emotions about climate change alarm in regards to the life system on earth. We want to say how bad things are with the web of life and how good they could be only if we did this or that. This is related in a human emotional way by valuing complexity over declining complexity. That is a human value not a natural value and we forget this. Even the alarm in science takes on an emotional life of its own in an urgency to action.

I am not saying this is not important. I am alarmed about climate change and ecosystem destruction. In fact, I am living REAL Green in a personal attempt to green prep for the worst ahead. I am in acceptance of this process and moved to action. There are strategies to mitigate this ecosystem and climate alarm with some draconian and some more realistic actions. Yet, that is a different angle from the philosophy behind our existential predicament. The key point is human project a human face on this world much like Christians see God in human ways. Humans have their human view of a higher power. Dualism does this because of the separation of unity. This is unavoidable because this is our nature but we should be reflective upon this human nature because it is a form of bargaining with nature that is not legitimate except in regards to our place in nature.

We treat the world as a human ecosystem when the reality is it is an earth ecosystem with humans part of it. This earth ecosystem is of course far older than humans. The earth ecosystem is governed by planetary acquiescence not human control. The life system humans are part of does work symbiotically with the earth system and in a sense there is a co-governance. Life systems are part of earth system regulations. So, humans are part of the process but not the architect. This then points to putting a binary good or bad on what is happening with the Anthropocene. This is ok for humans because the bad of it is, we are destroying the stability of the Holocene and now entering the very risky Anthropocene. This is a thrusting upon us with likely catastrophic results for human civilization which warrants a human response of alarm. This human response is to a very small-time frame as almost insignificant in earth time. In human time it is huge and dramatic.

What happens though is the projection of human urgency on to the life system that is not urgent but necessary and in a harmony of flux. Disharmony is harmony at a higher level where physics operates. In other words, the dance requires both and the dance is harmony. Evolution and extinction are two forces of planetary activity. They are part of succession of both growth and decline. It is the flux of the two that is necessary for life. You can label that determinism which again is a human emotional response. But everything is under the flux of equilibrium. There is no stasis in the system we dwell in other than the impulse to equilibrium influenced by physical law. Witness erosion and in opposition deposition and uplift as a mirror of extinction and evolution. These forces operate as a system. When we humanize the planet and its life system, we become delusional of our true place in it. Could an underlying Intelligence be the architect in the universe? If so this would end in paralysis singularity.

We then need to ask is this natural human delusion of our true earth place good or bad? It is neither in earth speak and it is natural to personify it with the binary of good and bad. So, we will do what is our nature and that is both delusional and rational. Some transcend this partially by acceptance and others dive into the delusion with anger and bargaining. Those in acceptance accept this delusion as a human condition. No one can escape delusion because the human mind is in flux being degraded or built up. Claiming delusion or acceptance is good or bad is again not valid in earth speak. So, if you are in tune to the planet you stop the anger and bargaining and start living as it is but also accept delusions are fine too. Anger and bargaining is just as reasonable because this is a human condition that is natural. It is human nature and human nature is part of life not separate. That is the full circle and that is the nature of things or am I delusional? LOL.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 18 Sep 2020, 09:03:43

REAL Green wrote: This is related in a human emotional way by valuing complexity over declining complexity.


We not only value complexity we evolved with it once we came down from the safety and monotony of an arboreal habitat and started walking around as a bipedal primate. It was the very complexity of this new ecosystem that selected for larger brains. We value complexity as you say but we also coevolved with it. In fact the general loss of IQ noted during the past couple of generations in my view is directly related to living increasingly in doors without the complexity of inter relating with the natural world.

Now that we have created our own natural ecosystem our IQ is falling. Because the ecosystem we have created is a mirage. It appears to be complex but in reality it is even more monotonous than living in the trees!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 21 Sep 2020, 06:33:39

I have already done this on 200 of my 400 acres I manage. I have left large areas to overgrow in weeds that pollinators love. I leave flowering weeds that most cattle farmers mow down. This time of year is very special to me when all the monarchs come through my farm. Local pollinators and butterflies are abundant too. We also have 10 bee hives on the farm a local bee guru maintains.

“Monarch butterflies’ spectacular migration is at risk – an ambitious new plan aims to help save it”
https://theconversation.com/monarch-but ... -it-136479

https://images.theconversation.com/file ... 0&fit=clip

“The rescue attempt To preempt the need for this kind of regulation, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service approved a Nationwide Candidate Conservation Agreement for Monarch Butterflies. Under this plan, “rights-of-way” landowners – energy and transportation companies and private owners – commit to restoring and creating millions of acres of pollinator habitat that have been decimated by land development and herbicide use in the past half-century.”
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 21 Sep 2020, 11:16:03

Ibon wrote:In fact the general loss of IQ noted during the past couple of generations in my view is directly related to living increasingly in doors


Probably nothing to do with that. More related to consumer/producer. If you're a consumer, you're a drone no matter your lifestyle. If you are a creator you can be creative holed up indoors all your life.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 21 Sep 2020, 11:23:23

mousepad wrote:
Ibon wrote:In fact the general loss of IQ noted during the past couple of generations in my view is directly related to living increasingly in doors


Probably nothing to do with that. More related to consumer/producer. If you're a consumer, you're a drone no matter your lifestyle. If you are a creator you can be creative holed up indoors all your life.



OK but to my point if you are a drone consumer as you say where do you spend most of your time? Indoors consuming!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 21 Sep 2020, 12:52:38

Ibon wrote:
mousepad wrote:
Ibon wrote:In fact the general loss of IQ noted during the past couple of generations in my view is directly related to living increasingly in doors


Probably nothing to do with that. More related to consumer/producer. If you're a consumer, you're a drone no matter your lifestyle. If you are a creator you can be creative holed up indoors all your life.



OK but to my point if you are a drone consumer as you say where do you spend most of your time? Indoors consuming!


I agree, regarding TV and internet. But keep it mind, the opposite is also possible. I have friends who are extremely outgoing. But all their outgoing is tied to consumption. Adventure parks, movies, restaurants, events, concerts, swimming pools, vacation etc etc.
Where I also have friends who practically hole themselves up in their home-shop creating amazing things of crafting, engineering and art.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 22 Sep 2020, 08:02:18

The commonality in both descriptions is between those who look to others for pleasure and guidance as opposed to those who Do their own analysis and look inward for what is gratifying.

In short some take their lead from the herd, revel in herd approved activities while others stand aside and go their own way. One group is much larger than the other.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 23 Sep 2020, 07:34:02

“Humans Destroyed Intact Ecosystem Land the Size of Mexico in Just 13 Years”
https://www.ecowatch.com/biodiversity-e ... belltitem3

“Between 2000 and 2013, Earth lost an area of undisturbed ecosystems roughly the size of Mexico. That's the mind-melting finding of a new study published in One Earth Friday, and the researchers say it has "profound implications" for global biodiversity and for humans who rely on natural resources. "We were expecting there to be high levels of intact ecosystem and wilderness loss, but the results were shocking," lead researcher Brooke Williams of the University of Queensland told The Guardian. "We found substantial area of intact ecosystems had been lost in just 13 years – nearly two million square kilometres – which is terrifying to think about. Our findings show that human pressure is extending ever further into the last ecologically intact and wilderness areas." In total, the researchers found that 1.9 million square kilometers (approximately 700,000 square miles) of previously intact ecosystem area had been "highly modified" during the study period. They also found that 58.4 percent of Earth's land ecosystems were under "moderate or intense" pressure from human activity, while only 41.6 percent of ecosystems were intact and 25 percent were true wilderness. The 1.9 million square kilometers lost were mostly tropical and subtropical grasslands in Asia, South America and Africa, according to the Wildlife Conservation Society (WCS), which participated in the research. The rainforests of Southeast Asia also suffered significant human encroachments.”
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 23 Sep 2020, 07:55:39

Another rumination.

LTG produced these nice graphs many years ago. We are approaching the tome when the trends start to break badly. What would that look like, what would that feel like?

Are we approaching Peak Growth?

Is that the pain we feel? External limits being Imposed?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 5

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 23 Sep 2020, 15:37:26

That's part of it. But it's also the ever increasing maldistribution of wealth, which has accelerated even faster since covid.

Even now, if we took the wealth of the top 10% of the worlds population (which would include me, by the way) and used it to provide basic services like healthcare (including abortions and right to die services) to the rest, along with massive education on consumption reduction and big infusions into renewables...we could greatly improve the lives of most people on the planet while giving us a distant chance at staying below, well, maybe 3 degrees C above pre-industrial levels, if people get very clever very quickly about how to extract massive amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere
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