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Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 21 May 2020, 19:31:48

vtsnowedin wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Let's see what happens in HongKong.....

Be careful what you wish for.
Hong Kong first, Taiwan next. Do we still have the strength and determination to stop them? I really do not know the answer to that. I hope somebody in charge does.


I don't know how HongKong or Taiwan for that matter can hold on to their autonomy long term. China is determined but like all aspiring empires they eventually over reach.

Imagine if the USA had 5 times the current population. How can you avoid becoming authoritarian when your task is to maintain social stability with so many people especially with a population that has grown to expect continued progress and growth. The ecological predicament in China necessitates that they expand globally to keep importing raw materials and food and the government's credibility depends on demonstrating economic growth. This is also their greatest weakness since their dependency on globalization is a domestic issue more than for any other country.

This actually restrains them at the same time from being overly aggressive as an empire but financially with their Belt and Road initiative they are investing in infrastructure at an unprecedented rate throughout the developing world.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 21 May 2020, 20:18:57

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote: And the west, the USA? Divided, polarized, incompetent and losing trillions in wealth. There is no unity, just everyone playing the blame game. stoking grievances


So what? Thats the way the democracy and freedom works. And its a lot better then having to blindly follow some "Fuhrer" or "Great Leader" who is above criticism.


No. Our democracy is broken. I remember. For most of the history of the US our democracy rested on a bed rock of civic involvement and a sense of the "common good" . I remember this. Government and political parties always had power struggles and bitter rivalry but for most of our history these conflicts still rested under the umbrella of the "common good" Political parties would still both defer in their turf war to what was best for the country and only allow partisanship to go so far. The past 30 years we can witness how this rivalry has ripped completely apart the fabric of civic society and destroyed any sense of the "common good".

How to restore this and nourish once again civic society?

You mentioned the Chinese dissenters are afraid and stay hidden. Although this may be true you know having been to China that the pride the Chinese feel in their country, the sense of civic engagement, the sense of sacrifice for the common good is real and authentic and not fear based. I agree with you that there is fear as well to speak out against the state but the fabric of civic society in China and the pride the Chinese have in their ascendancy is not out of fear.

Ask yourself how much your average American maintains this kind of civic pride today in their country?

I have mentioned in a few posts that the pendulum of divisiveness and partisanship at some point reaches its peak and then we start swinging the other way searching for unity. Folks reach a saturation with the constant blaming everything on the other tribe. I don't know when that will happen. I would have thought perhaps something like a pandemic could have done that. Apparently not.

Oh well, we just carry on hating and baiting and full of grievances. And you call this democracy and freedom? A pretty fucking sick version if you ask me.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 21 May 2020, 21:03:46

Kind ofninteresting, it may end “socially” first as we just get tired of it and go on.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health ... r-BB13RsBN
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 May 2020, 21:40:48

Ibon wrote: Our democracy is broken. I remember. For most of the history of the US our democracy rested on a bed rock of civic involvement and a sense of the "common good" . I remember this. Government and political parties always had power struggles and bitter rivalry but for most of our history these conflicts still rested under the umbrella of the "common good" Political parties would still both defer in their turf war to what was best for the country and only allow partisanship to go so far. The past 30 years we can witness how this rivalry has ripped completely apart the fabric of civic society and destroyed any sense of the "common good".


No doubt there has been a lot of partisanship during the last 30 years, but I don't think it started 30 years ago. For instance 50 years ago we were in the Vietnam war. The country practically tore itself apart over Vietnam....there were anti-war demonstrations across the country. Universities were occupied by students and shut down. Leading US political figures were murdered by extremists, including Robert F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Far left extremists engaged in a terror bombing campaign.

The country was far more divided over Vietnam 50-55 years ago then it is now.

I know a lot of Ds are in a kind of partisan hysteria over Trump, but that level of hysteria and anger by the Ds is far less intense then the anger the US experienced over the Vietnam war in the 1960s.

Its true the US had a little golden age during the 50s when we were economically on top of the world and Ike was president and partisanship was more subdued, but since then (and before then) we've always had a very partisan and fractious society. We even had a little thing called the civil war back in the 1860s, when D vs R partisanship over the issue of slavery exploded into an actual shooting war. The Ds wanted to preserve and expand slavery while the Rs wanted to restrict and ultimately to end it. Fortunately the Rs won that time.

Image
The Ds and Rs have been fighting for a long long time....extreme partisanship didn't start in the US 30 years ago

Ibon wrote:..... you call this democracy and freedom? A pretty fucking sick version if you ask me.


The perfect is the enemy of the good. I agree with you that the US isn't perfect.

One problem in your argument is your contention that the US is a democracy.

The US is NOT A DEMOCRACY.

The US is a republic.

Complaining that the US isn't a perfect democracy is a total waste of time since the US system is not a democratic system and the US is not a democracy now, and never has been.

The founding fathers, in their wisdom, did everything they could to prevent the US from being or becoming a democracy.

TO them, democracies were dangerous because they were susceptible to mob rule and tyranny.

Personally, I tend to agree with them.

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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 May 2020, 08:20:10

Plant,

There is a lot of truth but I also think there is something different going on. Much has been said about the Civil wars cause; slavery or economics? But another way to look at it is religion.

I don’t mean religion in the narrow way we generally think of it; Episcopalian, Baptist, Catholic, Jewish. What I mean is that some issues take a religious zealotry. And that’s what happened in the Civil war. There were many on both sides that had opinions opposing their government on the issue of slavery. Including Grant who during the war told Lincoln he was not anti-slavery, and Lee who thought slavery was an out dated institution. Yet they, the troops, fought passionately.

I often wonder what drives people to such decisions, to kill one another. The master class that benefits, if anyone does.

The answer becomes simpler if you reduce it to tribal allegiances. What defines our tribe? We have images, and memes, certain ideas that are sacrosanct, then symbols become short hand for the allegiance. You can see all these things in a religious setting: various icons, the stories, the rituals. And today’s parties have all those same elements: the Ass and elephant, red and blue, abortion/choice, illegal immigration pro/con. Any one of these items brands you as one of them/us.

Try arguing illegal immigration from a sustainability point of view and you are immediately branded a R and you are tarred with disdain.

The Viet Nam war controversy and the black rights controversies were different. They were grass roots movements that crossed party lines. Johnson a D started the war, Nixon, a R continued it. Johnson pushes civil rights measures over the objections of the southern Ds. Nixon signed Sweeping environmental legislation.

The axis of contention has now shifted to more ritualized matters. Neither party really wants to straighten up illegal immigration or the environment. Each party has moved the fight to simply party identification. The “issues” are really secondary, red or blue icing on the same pound cake.

And “we the people” will gladly follow our leaders into battle, sacrificing our lives, for what? But have done it for thousands of years, thousands of times. To wage war, to kill other humans is as much part of our make up as anything else. I first came across this in reading some european histories where politicians were discussing the need for war, and too often the answer was “The people demand it.”

Given our own history, within our lifetime, how many needless wars have we engaged? Perhaps there is something to that concept. And if we can’t fight outside the country we will fight inside the country.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 22 May 2020, 08:28:00

Ibon wrote:How to restore this and nourish once again civic society?


IQ/civics test to qualify for voting for a start.

Ibon wrote:Oh well, we just carry on hating and baiting and full of grievances. And you call this democracy and freedom? A pretty fucking sick version if you ask me.


It takes a certain depth of perspective to recognize that this is a zero-sum-game, hence the above call to make voting a privilege with a competency test rather than a right.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 22 May 2020, 08:48:38

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:How to restore this and nourish once again civic society?


IQ/civics test to qualify for voting for a start.

Ibon wrote:Oh well, we just carry on hating and baiting and full of grievances. And you call this democracy and freedom? A pretty fucking sick version if you ask me.


It takes a certain depth of perspective to recognize that this is a zero-sum-game, hence the above call to make voting a privilege with a competency test rather than a right.


Understanding how powerful the herd follows the example of their leaders I think the IQ/civics test needs to apply first and foremost to our leaders and politicians.

I put out these probes now and then to see if anything resonates back about that pendulum of tribal divisiveness to see if it has yet peaked and if there is any real desire or appetite toward moving forward with more unity.

I don't see it yet. Sadly.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 22 May 2020, 08:51:06

Plantagenet wrote:
The founding fathers, in their wisdom................


I often hear Christians bringing up Jesus to justify their hypocrisies.

It's funny, I so often see the same bullshit in those referring to our founding fathers.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 May 2020, 11:32:36

Ibon,

Like it or not it’s what they did, and for those reasons. They were afraid of Democracy.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 22 May 2020, 13:52:39

I went out today to pick up some groceries and gardening supplies. A daughter asked me to stop in at Home Depot and pick her up some things. Big mistake.Everybody is getting stuff for the three day weekend plus the city was working on the street that approaches it. They had traffic backed up a mile and through the Home depot's parking lot. Guy at the door only letting people in as others came out. In the store and out with no problem but then had to fight the traffic again to get away from it. And to top it off the garden supply store that told me they had thirty bags of lime for curbside pickup only had ten bags when I got there and they had to credit my account for the other twenty bags. So a long frustrating trip with not much progress.That goes a long way towards getting back to normal for that particular commercial strip. :)
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby shortonoil » Fri 22 May 2020, 14:01:46

C8 said: I too have relied on my immune system all my life and it has really worked well. But i wonder if it is kept in better shape by being used and tested or reserved and fresh. I would be interested in what your experience has been.


To keep the immune system sharp, it must be exercised. That is why doctors rarely get sick. They are exposed constantly to all types of pathogens; their immune systems are well tuned to handling them. Doctors are said to only get sick when they come home from vacations. We may eventually discover that the Amish are correct, they do not vaccinate their children and the Amish have longer life spans than the rest of the population. Of course studies into the subject are totally challenged by the pharmaceutical industry. It is no surprise that the pharmaceutical industry has not discovered a cure for a disease in 60 years in spite of the 100s of $billions that have been invested into research. They only pursue treatments. Cures don't pay them as well as sick people. Neither is it surprising that the AMA has stated that 40% of the procedures performed in this country are unnecessary. Or, that Dr. FrankenFauci is downplaying hydroxychloroquine, a cheap and safe drug that has been used 100s of million of times for the treatment of malaria, over its patentable, and very expensive rivals. So, it is not surprising that few like him were able to turn the yearly flu into a world killing pandemic that crashed the world's economy.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby C8 » Fri 22 May 2020, 15:11:35

shortonoil wrote:
C8 said: I too have relied on my immune system all my life and it has really worked well. But i wonder if it is kept in better shape by being used and tested or reserved and fresh. I would be interested in what your experience has been.


To keep the immune system sharp, it must be exercised. That is why doctors rarely get sick. They are exposed constantly to all types of pathogens; their immune systems are well tuned to handling them. Doctors are said to only get sick when they come home from vacations. We may eventually discover that the Amish are correct, they do not vaccinate their children and the Amish have longer life spans than the rest of the population. Of course studies into the subject are totally challenged by the pharmaceutical industry. It is no surprise that the pharmaceutical industry has not discovered a cure for a disease in 60 years in spite of the 100s of $billions that have been invested into research. They only pursue treatments. Cures don't pay them as well as sick people. Neither is it surprising that the AMA has stated that 40% of the procedures performed in this country are unnecessary. Or, that Dr. FrankenFauci is downplaying hydroxychloroquine, a cheap and safe drug that has been used 100s of million of times for the treatment of malaria, over its patentable, and very expensive rivals. So, it is not surprising that few like him were able to turn the yearly flu into a world killing pandemic that crashed the world's economy.


Well, that's good to hear. I meet about 300 people a day so I should live to 1,000. I've never gotten a flu shot in all my life either. I rarely get sick and don't like putting things in my body (I almost never take meds).

I don't know if it is related but, I have a very hard time sleeping and can go days w/o it. I don't sleep for a long time either when I do sleep. Sometimes it worries me and I think I should be sleeping more. About once a month I will take one of those blue sleeping pills. But they are so strong that I have to break one up and take 1/2 or 1/4th of a tiny pill- it knocks me out for 12-15 hours. I have heard people develop a tolerance to meds, but for me it works the other way around. I take meds so rarely that, when I do, they really hit me.

I wonder if my great immune system has something to do with me hardly ever taking meds. I guess I am scared of a vaccine.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 22 May 2020, 17:20:38

vtsnowedin wrote:I went out today to pick up some groceries and gardening supplies. A daughter asked me to stop in at Home Depot and pick her up some things. Big mistake.


No kidding! I was at Lowes today and during checkout I saw a guy (one of the only ones without a mask) start cussing and moaning next to the checkout guy (not staying on the opposite side of the plexiglass). Caught a bit about "antibodies" and how all the other shoppers are "f*ckin' *ssholes" because they are buying so many plants. Even after checkout he kept angrily muttering to himself on the way to his pickup truck. Must have been a peakoil.com member.

C8 wrote:I guess I am scared of a vaccine.


Well, the truth comes out. Don't be surprised if you learn that your immune system isn't so strong as much as you've just been lucky.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 23 May 2020, 06:59:47

Plantagenet wrote:
The US is NOT A DEMOCRACY.

The US is a republic.



Ok so I changed my quote below over to Republic from Democracy. Does it really alter in any way the point I was making?

Where does it end Plant with this fractured divisiveness? What is the end game? With no more sense of civic duty and the common good the divisions just tear us apart. There is no core center to join together and resolve problems for the common good, it is pure tribal hatred.

And yet it seems to be all manufactured. There are core interests shared that we flush down the toilet when the focus is so singularly focused on tearing down and discrediting the other tribe.

It is a strange form of collective self destruction. It appears to be at the end of the day what we really want more than anything else. Some perverted glee to just tear everything down. Is it a sign of collective self loathing?



Ibon wrote: Our Republic is broken. I remember. For most of the history of the US our democracy rested on a bed rock of civic involvement and a sense of the "common good" . I remember this. Government and political parties always had power struggles and bitter rivalry but for most of our history these conflicts still rested under the umbrella of the "common good" Political parties would still both defer in their turf war to what was best for the country and only allow partisanship to go so far. The past 30 years we can witness how this rivalry has ripped completely apart the fabric of civic society and destroyed any sense of the "common good".
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 23 May 2020, 07:18:47

My questions on my last post are not academic

Do we believe geopolitical tensions are growing?
Do we see severe and disruptive climate change consequences in the near to mid term?
Do we recognize structural problems with globalization, our financial institutions, the severe disparity of wealth?
Do we recognize the failing physical infrastructure and the erosion of our public institutions?
Do we recognize that the political 2 party system shares the same core degeneration of values of the "common good" ?
Has this pandemic exposed weaknesses in our resiliency to deal with crisis?

Recognizing any of these are reasons for a call for unity......

How deep into the quagmire of tribal divisiveness do we fall before recognizing common goals we all share?

Do we have no sense of collective shame at our depravity?
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby diemos » Sat 23 May 2020, 07:40:31

asg70 wrote:
C8 wrote:I guess I am scared of a vaccine.


Well, the truth comes out. Don't be surprised if you learn that your immune system isn't so strong as much as you've just been lucky.


Everybody's immune system works perfectly ... until it doesn't ... then you die.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby shortonoil » Sat 23 May 2020, 07:43:31

C8 said: Well, that's good to hear. I meet about 300 people a day so I should live to 1,000.


We can celebrate our 999 birthdays together. Sleep seems to be a very individualist trait. I know a gentleman who works 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and spends his "free" time working on his girlfriend's house. He is a farmer, and 73 years old. His girlfriend is 53. He says he has never been sick a day in his life. I know he doesn't sleep more than 4 hours a day, if that much. Some people just don't need much sleep. I sleep 8 hours straight. It is very rare for me to get up during the night. This is the first time in 52 years that I have had the flu, or even a cold, and it only lasted two days. I am firmly convinced that vaccinations compromise the immune system in the long term. Vaccines can be very important in some circumstances, but they are pushed relentlessly by the industry. As a child the only vaccination I ever got was for Polio. I caught the measles, the mumps, and every other childhood disease imaginable. I am now bullet proof.

As far as medications are concerned, excluding antibiotics, doctors have a tendency to prescribe according to the drug industry's recommendations. The drug industry is selling drugs. They are using a curve from their studies, and almost always go the high side, and many drugs are very toxic according to their LD50 studies. Your requirements may be on the low tail end of that curve. As a very famous doctor said 2000 years ago; "the poison is in the dose".
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 23 May 2020, 08:17:33

Ibon,

The immediate problem is the 2 party system. They are locked in a winner take all fight to the death. This is the equivalent if a Professional Wrestling championship match. And about as meaningful.

We need to take the parties out of the system. They are poison to our country.

Why we are not talking about this on a national level baffles me.

I guess the answer goes back to Postners quote about Orwell and Huxley. As a whole, we don’t really give a hoot, it entertainment.
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 23 May 2020, 08:17:49

My mother gave birth to my youngest brother in 1960. In 2010 at the age of 88 my mother broke her hip in a fall. The 50 years between when my brother was born and when my mother broke her hip she never entered a doctors office and never went to the hospital. She died 5 years after breaking her hip. She was very healthy, weighed just over 100 pounds most of her life, walked 5 miles a day.

After she broke her hip all her offspring, we had a discussion. She was diagnosed with osteoporosis when she broke her hip and had she seen a doctor it is theoretically possible she could have had some supplements to maintain bone density years before she broke her hip and it is theoretically possible that she could have lasted a couple more years walking every day.

BUT had she gone regularly to a doctor all those years you know that they would have found all kinds of justifications to load her up on all sorts of long term medications.

So our conclusion is that she came out way ahead of the game.

I follow her strategy 100%
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Re: Opening Up the Economy Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 23 May 2020, 08:26:16

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

The immediate problem is the 2 party system. They are locked in a winner take all fight to the death. This is the equivalent if a Professional Wrestling championship match. And about as meaningful.

We need to take the parties out of the system. They are poison to our country.

Why we are not talking about this on a national level baffles me.

I guess the answer goes back to Postners quote about Orwell and Huxley. As a whole, we don’t really give a hoot, it entertainment.


That is right. To disregard real debilitating events and issues for the sake of entertainment is really at the end of the day more about self loathing than it is about ignorance.

Let's face it. Americans have a desire for self destruction. I sincerely believe this. The dysfunctional 2 party system did not rise in a vacuum. It is the Coleseum and the electorate are in the bleachers cheering for blood.

The impulse to tear down rather than build up has deep roots in self loathing.

And that should be no surprise. Most Americans are parasitic consumers, they no longer grow or build or make anything, the self loathing comes from the unconscious awareness that they take and consume and want want want... No sense of duty, service, giving, building, growing, sacrifice. It is about needs and wants.

We know this. We feel it inside. We deflect the self loathing and direct it toward hatred of our politicians and the "other"

So much for analysus. At the end of the day leaving a post like this just pointing out the self loathing only feeds the problem since it is a form of anger and hatred as well.

So in a sincere effort to heal how do we address this, where do we start?

If you suggest an independent 3rd party or independent movement that calls for unity then this also does not arise in a vacuum. Folks have to have grown tired of the split and desire unity otherwise any movement coming from outside the 2 party system will not gain traction.

That is why I come back to test the waters now and then asking when is the pendulum reaching its peak of tribalism and hatred? When have folks had enough. When does the pendulum swing back toward unity. That is when a movement outside the 2 party system can ride a wave. Not before hand.
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