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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 09:53:38

mousepad wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:Personally, I'm for accomplishing that for huge gas guzzling non-work vehicles with CO2 taxes


I'd rather have a simple (but hefty) gas tax. Phased in over maybe 10 or 20 years (so there's no shock effect). Every year a percentage higher, towards to total of maybe $5 or $10/gallon of tax.
The smart ones will realize what's going on and plan their life accordingly. The stupid ones are caught holding the bag.

I'm wondering at what point electric cars are going to be taxed to fund road construction?

I have long thought a nickel per gallon increase every year or six months would do the trick if announced in advance to let buyers be aware of what they will pay over the life of a car without causing a sudden flight from big cars with a lot of life left in them.
As to the Electric car taxes some states are already considering it. They can just up the yearly registration fees or go to a by the mile registration fee which would require your mileage being reported at your yearly inspection and not all states have yearly inspections. Any way they do it they need to let the total taxes paid on the EV be less then that paid by the ICE owner to encourage EV sales over ICE.
Currently state gas tax in Vermont is 31 cents per gallon or about one cent per mile on a efficient ICE sedan so assuming 15,000 miles average driven about $150 per year
Of course heavier vehicles pay more so You could charge EVs $100 more per year and give them a bargain over any ICE vehicle paying both registration and fuel tax.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 11:59:58

There are also toll roads. They aren't just for gas cars.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 12:06:36

asg70 wrote:There are also toll roads. They aren't just for gas cars.

Yes but the EV will pay the same toll as the ICE so there is no problem there.
Of course if a city wanted to reduce pollution downtown they could charge lower EZpass rates to the EVs at the toll gateways to the city. A less Draconian method then just banning ICEs by a arbitrary date.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 12:26:06

All discussions of taxing or eliminating ICE vehicles and replacing them with EVs to benefit the environment assume there is a significant benefit to the environment.

But when you do the numbers, the benefit to the environment from EVs is minimal.

Manufacturing any new car, whether ICE or EV, results in the emissions of large amounts of CO2 as the raw materials are mined, transported, manufactured into parts and then transported again and then manufactured into the car.

AND manufacturing EVs results in the release of far more CO2 then ICE vehicles, because the lithium battery requires an entirely separate mining, transporting, and manufacturing etc. process, each step of which releases more CO2. The CO2 footprint of just the battery for an EV is equal to another 1/2 to 2/3rds of the CO2 footprint of the basic car.

This means EVs actually have much higher CO2 footprints then ICE cars the day they roll off the showroom floor. When you do the math it will take ca. 5-7 years of use of the ICE car to "catch up" for it to catch up with the EV so that both cars have equal CO2 footprints.

But that assumes the EV doesn't emit any CO2. Again, when you do the numbers most EVs in the world plug into dirty power systems which are dependent on coal or natural gas to generate the electricity. Some calculations suggest the typical EV is releasing 1/2 to 3/4 of the CO2 of an ICE car because the electricity used to charge the EV has its own large CO2 footprint.

The bottom line is that there is a small reduction in CO2 production for most EVs vs. ICE cars over the entire life of the car, but this reduction is much smaller then many EV owners assume. And in some places where most electricity is generated using fossil fuels, like China and Germany, EVs actually have LARGER CO2 footprints then ICE cars.

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most-electric-vehicles-dont-reduce-carbon-emissions-

Personally, I would rather all the government subsidies going into EVs were being put into mass transit (electric trams, electric high speed rail, autonomous EV taxis, etc.) because this would reduce CO2 emissions much more then having every person buying and driving their own personal EVs. IMHO the Europeans, Japanese, Chinese and other countries are on the right track to put so much investment into their mass transit infrastructure, as opposed to the US approach of mostly ignoring mass transit and infrastructure in favor subsidizing affluent people to buy expensive EV sports cars.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 13:44:02

Electric powered mass transit would still be a carbon source if the electricity comes from coal. As to the carbon foot print of manufacturing and Ev and it's battery being higher then casting iron engine blocks and the steel mills making the steel for the other drive train parts you would have to show me the numbers from a good source.
Even if the EV is behind the day it is delivered the 8000 gallons of gas the ICE will use over it's lifetime is a huge carbon source and the EV can use totally carbon free electricity and even if connected to the present grid would be 37% fossil fuel free.
I expect that as we move to EVs we will also move to more and more renewable sources for their electricity so whatever the numbers actually are today they will steadily improve.
Of course if we don't try we will continue to burn oil until it is all gone and then we can switch if we can still breath.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 15:05:44

vtsnowedin wrote: Even if the EV is behind the day it is delivered the 8000 gallons of gas the ICE will use over it's lifetime is a huge carbon source and the EV can use totally carbon free electricity and even if connected to the present grid would be 37% fossil fuel free.

The sources I've read re articles tend to agree with this assessment.

A lot depends on the SIZE of the EV, especially re batteries. A Tesla Model S with a 100 kWh battery takes a LOT of miles to become carbon neutral. OTOH, something more like a Leaf with a 40 kWh battery gets there a lot quicker. And this true even if the power source for the charging is all coal, though on average, that's far from true, as you point out (and the grid is getting cleaner over time, re its power sourcing).

And it makes a lot of sense, re burning gasoline. Each 6.3 pounds per gallon of gasoline burned in an ICE produces roughly 20 pounds of CO2, due to the chemical reaction adding the weight of the oxygen, in the burning. So that's a metric ton of CO2 per 110 gallons of gasoline. For the typical ICE, that's roughly a metric ton of CO2 per 3000 miles of driving. Over the 200,000 or so mile life time of a modern ICE car on average, that's about 67 tons of CO2, JUST from burning the gasoline.

I've seen articles re, say, a late model Toyota Camry HEV having a lower carbon footprint than, say, a Tesla Model S, but for a more efficient BEV like a leaf, though an efficient HEV is MUCH better than a pure ICE, the smaller BEV wins over time -- just by a much smaller margin.

If one feels they truly can't afford a BEV or use a BEV due to range restrictions, temperatures, etc, then an efficient (i.e. modern) HEV still goes a LONG way toward making things better, and for little or no money, considering the gasoline savings over time.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 11 Mar 2020, 15:37:40

As I'll become a 65 year old seasoned citizen next month I have to consider that any vehicle ,new or used, I buy might be the last one I ever buy. At present I'm looking at a full two years before I can take delivery on the two motor cyber truck I placed my $100 on. The technology in this industry is changing so fast 24 months is a lifetime and anything known or said now may well be obsolete when the day arrives. When I have to buy or collect my refund I'll take a hard look at what is really available at that time and choose the truck that will serve me best. There appear to be several good options in the pipeline and it maybe a very close call. I doubt if any ICE truck will be the best option by then but time will tell.
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Re: New Engine Could Boost Fuel Economy by Half

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 13 Aug 2020, 08:02:19

“Lucid Air Could Have An EPA Range Of 517 Miles”
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/12/lu ... 517-miles/

“That is a remarkable achievement. The Tesla Model S now carries an EPA range rating of 402 miles. The Lucid Air beats that by over 100 miles. How did Lucid pull that off? “The answer is Lucid’s proprietary technology,” the company says, “along with careful engineering of every aspect of the Air’s performance and efficiency. Starting with the in-house development of an industry-leading drivetrain, Lucid miniaturized and integrated the Air’s motors, transmission, and inverter, and paired this with an ultra-high, 900+ volt architecture to achieve unmatched compactness and efficiency.” Peter Rawlinson adds, “I believe that our 900-volt architecture, our race-proven battery packs, miniaturized motors and power electronics, integrated transmission systems, aerodynamics, chassis and thermal systems, software, and overall system efficiency have now reached a stage where they collectively set a new standard and deliver a host of world’s firsts.”
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Re: New Engine Could Boost Fuel Economy by Half

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 00:49:00

REAL Green wrote:“Lucid Air Could Have An EPA Range Of 517 Miles”
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/12/lu ... 517-miles/

“That is a remarkable achievement. The Tesla Model S now carries an EPA range rating of 402 miles. The Lucid Air beats that by over 100 miles. How did Lucid pull that off? “The answer is Lucid’s proprietary technology,” the company says, “along with careful engineering of every aspect of the Air’s performance and efficiency. Starting with the in-house development of an industry-leading drivetrain, Lucid miniaturized and integrated the Air’s motors, transmission, and inverter, and paired this with an ultra-high, 900+ volt architecture to achieve unmatched compactness and efficiency.” Peter Rawlinson adds, “I believe that our 900-volt architecture, our race-proven battery packs, miniaturized motors and power electronics, integrated transmission systems, aerodynamics, chassis and thermal systems, software, and overall system efficiency have now reached a stage where they collectively set a new standard and deliver a host of world’s firsts.”

While that sounds like a significant improvement they did it partly by miniaturizing some components which may well lead to durability problems in the longer run.
I would very much like a EV with a better then 500 mile range but not at the expense of lifetime repair costs and final cost per mile.
I consider that if I'm driving cross country a four hour morning drive at 75mph will get me 300 miles and an hour lunch recharge break would be no hardship as long as I did not have to wait in line for the charge station. Another four to five hours and I'll be ready to check in to a motel for the night. The days when I would consider driving seven hours at a stretch are behind me so I would stop looking for more range at about 400 miles and then look to the durability of the platform and other features.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby careinke » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 03:29:32

I just bought two Radrunner electric bikes, plus fenders, it rains a lot in the PNW. Primarily because I don't want to tow a car behind Libby (Our motor home).
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Re: New Engine Could Boost Fuel Economy by Half

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 05:00:05

vtsnowedin wrote: I consider that if I'm driving cross country a four hour morning drive at 75mph will get me 300 miles and an hour lunch recharge break would be no hardship as long as I did not have to wait in line for the charge station. Another four to five hours and I'll be ready to check in to a motel for the night. The days when I would consider driving seven hours at a stretch are behind me so I would stop looking for more range at about 400 miles and then look to the durability of the platform and other features.


I am waiting for an inexpensive EV I can use to drive to get supplies and services in my nearest big town. This would be a 50 mile or so round trip. I am also interested in a small HP tractor for the farm with a 4 hour work time. Ideally these would be fitted with a system that would allow me to charge them with on farm solar. I do not need to drive or run the tractor constantly so this is a workable arrangement. The problem currently is cost and opportunity cost. I am trapped with fossil fuels currently. There are no inexpensive EV options out there with small cars or tractors. Solar charging for cars is not cost effective yet. It can be done but the economics are not there. I am not interested in driving 400 miles except on rare occasions. My issues are how can I apply solar and EV technology to my form of localism. The basics are not there yet but the technology is possible. The problem is the technology today wants to produce fun $50K Teslas instead of boring $15K small commuters vehicles. There is no electric tractors reasonably available.

Experiments are expensive and not cost effective at a point. I already have a pricy home solar system and wood boiler. My efficiency strategies are extreme. It cost money to do these things. One day the money will not be there. I am a green prepper so I am doing these things but keep in mind the lowest cost solution is all electric and sit on my ass. No wonder people with a little money and time like me end up in warm climates playing golf and walking the beach. It just makes sense if you like comfort. That way of life bores me so I am instead doing my green pepping. If SHTF I bought myself a few months. LOL.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 10:13:13

There are plenty of older Nissan Leafs and other early EVs on the market that would easily do the 50 mile round trip and these could be had quite cheaply.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 10:52:06

dolanbaker wrote:There are plenty of older Nissan Leafs and other early EVs on the market that would easily do the 50 mile round trip and these could be had quite cheaply.


I took a quick look on CarGurus and first-year Chevy Bolts are now in the 16K range, mostly sold from dealers. I'm assuming most of these are coming from expired leases. But seriously, a good deal if you can get beyond the styling (which is also a problem with the Leaf).

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventory ... isFeatured

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 12:43:34

asg70 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:There are plenty of older Nissan Leafs and other early EVs on the market that would easily do the 50 mile round trip and these could be had quite cheaply.


I took a quick look on CarGurus and first-year Chevy Bolts are now in the 16K range, mostly sold from dealers. I'm assuming most of these are coming from expired leases. But seriously, a good deal if you can get beyond the styling (which is also a problem with the Leaf).

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventory ... isFeatured


Well, I am a bit concerned about a used EV but that may have to be my option until something is mass produced to fit my niche. Preferably a small electric pickup would be ideal but nothing is out there. All the pickups are targeting the heavy duty high horsepower market.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 13:17:33

REAL Green wrote:I am a bit concerned about a used EV


A 3 year old Bolt isn't going to have much battery degradation yet. Plus even if it does it will still have tons more range than a Leaf. I think the Leaf is about done as a used option outside of poverty-row buyers. It will be the Bolt and then Model 3s.

I await you joining the EV club so you can stop your envy-related putdowns of me.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 13:33:45

asg70 wrote:
REAL Green wrote:I am a bit concerned about a used EV


A 3 year old Bolt isn't going to have much battery degradation yet. Plus even if it does it will still have tons more range than a Leaf. I think the Leaf is about done as a used option outside of poverty-row buyers. It will be the Bolt and then Model 3s.

I await you joining the EV club so you can stop your envy-related putdowns of me.


Thanks for the advice. I think if we ignore each other we will do just fine.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 13:35:53

REAL Green wrote:Thanks for the advice. I think if we ignore each other we will do just fine.


For the most part I have been doing just that.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 13:39:22

asg70 wrote:
REAL Green wrote:Thanks for the advice. I think if we ignore each other we will do just fine.


For the most part I have been doing just that.


ditto
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 16:47:58

asg70 wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:There are plenty of older Nissan Leafs and other early EVs on the market that would easily do the 50 mile round trip and these could be had quite cheaply.


I took a quick look on CarGurus and first-year Chevy Bolts are now in the 16K range, mostly sold from dealers. I'm assuming most of these are coming from expired leases. But seriously, a good deal if you can get beyond the styling (which is also a problem with the Leaf).

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventory ... isFeatured

Considering you don't get the tax credit(s) and how fast new cars depreciate from less-than-great sellers re quality and durability (which includes GM), sounds pretty much like a mediocre deal to me.

Of course, unlike, say, Tesla fanbois, I'm NOT buying the idea that such cars can just be driven for decades with very few maintenance costs because they're BEV's.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 14 Aug 2020, 17:06:21

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Considering you don't get the tax credit(s)


You don't get much of a tax credit anymore for a new Bolt, at least, because the combination of Volt/Bolt pushed GM over the limit (same with Tesla). For brands that still have the credit you want to wait until the savings of buying used to compensate for the lack of the tax credit. Since EVs are still new, that means slim pickings, which is why people keep talking about the Leaf. That will change soon enough.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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