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Degrowth Thread

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Jan 2020, 17:50:55

Here is an example of forced Degrowth due to effect of climate change.


According to the Panama Canal Authority, after several years of below-average rainfall, the amount of rainfall recorded in 2019 was 20 percent below the historic average and the fifth lowest recorded rainfall in 70 years. Meanwhile, the Canal has also experienced an approximately 10 percent increase in water evaporation levels due to a 0.5 to 1.5 degree Celsius rise in temperature, the Canal Authority said.


https://gcaptain.com/extended-drought-f ... ion-slots/
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Jan 2020, 19:11:10

Our front page carried the below linked story, a plan of how to save the World. It’s an interesting idea that I can see many of the Right and Left getting behind, if they can put their knives away.

https://www.suchresearch.net/blog/2019/ ... ainability

The article itself links then to this second page.


https://www.half-earthproject.org/
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby leslietomb95 » Thu 16 Jan 2020, 02:10:54

Degrowth factors are quarterly beneficial. Some of the best tips are given.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Revi » Fri 17 Jan 2020, 17:19:30

Newfie wrote:Our front page carried the below linked story, a plan of how to save the World. It’s an interesting idea that I can see many of the Right and Left getting behind, if they can put their knives away.

https://www.suchresearch.net/blog/2019/ ... ainability

The article itself links then to this second page.


https://www.half-earthproject.org/


It shows Haiti as living within it's means. It's only doing that because it has to. We are using 3 times what we actually produce because we can. We just hand people IOUs and they give us their stuff. It will end soon enough!
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Jan 2020, 20:10:51

Just saw an article today saying the country with the most sustainable profile was Cuba.

FWIW ..... I circulated this article to a group of very liberal folks, about 60. 3 replied. One, a very senior lawyer, said it was interesting and our leaders should be talking about this stuff. The other two, one a research MD, made non-sensical comments that revealed they were failures at reading comprehension.

Quite depressing results.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Cog » Fri 17 Jan 2020, 21:12:29

If only we embraced a totalitarian government, then we can be truly free from growth.

Inside every degrowther is a person who absolutely wants to control every aspect of your life. At gun point if necessary.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Jan 2020, 22:39:23

Good grief Cog, I know you can read but you too have failed reading comprehension.

I thought your would like this as it would strongly argue for zero immigration.

Try to explain to me again how infinite growth is possible?
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby careinke » Sun 19 Jan 2020, 03:53:20

Newfie wrote:Good grief Cog, I know you can read but you too have failed reading comprehension.

I thought your would like this as it would strongly argue for zero immigration.

Try to explain to me again how infinite growth is possible?


Well, I looked at both links and found it ......Interesting. Especially the 1/2 earth stuff. I agree the quickest way to have any success would be a no immigration policy. I think they greatly overestimate the amount of land you need to feed people, and greatly underestimate the value for the environment of live stock (in addition to feeding people).

Unfortunately, I also see a lot of authoritarianism coming out of this movement, which I believe is what Cog is rebelling against.

Here is a recent video from Jack Spirko discussing
Is Hydroponics Good or Bad For the Environment?
which is Germain to this topic.

But first some background on Jack Spirko, he is an Anarchist, right leaning, Permaculturist. Right now he is developing a hydroponics system that will feed a family of four all of their nutrient packed leafy green vegetables for under $800. It will produce a net of $100 of produce a month and pay for itself in six months. Oh, it takes up 2' x 4 ' of floor space, and not a lot of time per week. He will be showing it at the Feb Mother Earth News Fair in Texas.

Anyway You may enjoy his take on saving the environment. I'd be interested in your take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9ik1qQWoY
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Jan 2020, 08:53:15

Carinke,

I have a hard time doing videos due to my bandwidth but I’ll try to view this one.

I agree that there is opportunity for authoritarian abuse, but that exists pretty much in every movement. One needs to be constantly aware as there is always someone who wants to take power and will use whatever vehicle available.

One of the things I liked about the article was that he was not overly dogmatic and purposely left a lot of room for adjustment. He was focused more on the basic concept that unlimited growth is impossible and to draw a broad picture of what a sustainable solution would look like. And I very much liked the concept that each country needs to learn to live within their own limits, to stay within their own borders and find their own solutions.

I have shared this article fairly widely and find that most people who “read” it don’t. Their reactions are wholly off the point of the article which means it’s more of a Rorschach Test.

One (Who supports the Paris accords) saw unreasonable demands for us to support Africa with additional aid.

Another saw it as imposing a Chinese style or one child policy in the USA.

Cog sees it as an authoritarian plot.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Jan 2020, 09:07:59

As I have reported in the past, Iran faces a demographic crisis over the next two decades as its population ages rapidly. There are five prime-age Iranians supporting every Iranian over the age of 65, but by mid-century, the ratio will collapse to just 1.6 to one. Strangely, the Iranian authorities have reported an increase in the “total fertility rate,” namely the estimated number of children that the average woman will bear during her lifetime. The increase evidently is due to optimistic assumptions about the future rather than observed behavior in the present.

Iranians face desperate conditions, if not actual hunger, due to the effect of economic sanctions. Add to this the long-term effects of mismanagement of the country’s scarce water resources. Afshin Shahi wrote recently in the Journal of Asian Affairs: “Approximately 97% of the country is experiencing drought conditions. Due to gross water mismanagement and its damaging impact on the country, Iran faces the worst situation in the water resources of any industrialized nation. Tens of thousands of villages have been deserted and most of the major urban centers have passed their limits to absorb new rural migrants. Some officials predict that in less than 25 years, 50 million Iranians would be displaced from their current homes because of the pressing ecological conditions.”


https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/artic ... -regime-2/

One way to look at this situation is that the sanctions are forcing Iran back within their borders and within short order. And Iran needs to adapt to that situation, which will be very difficult because it is heavily over populated for the water supply.

This also happened to Cuba and the first years were tough. But they have eventually adjusted and are now one of the most sustainable countries. It helps that they have adequate water and a 12 month growing season and that there was a lot of out migration. This isn’t to support their heavy handed government but to show what can be done in spite of poor governance.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 07:08:05

What would a “sustainable” world look like?

I’ll start with some assumptions. First we, humanity, wants to retain sufficient industrialization to support furthering knowledge, to expand our intellectual Horizions. To do this we need to have a few technological centers in the world, maybe 3 to 5. Second that human population needs to be controlled to on the order of 1 billion people to allow Earth systems enough space to heal and exist and develop on their own.

The Major technological centers would have a population of about 20 millions each or roughly 100 million people. The remaining 900 million would be employed in Supporting these centers by feeding them food, goods, and the various supplies and raw materials required.

Probably the largest number of folks would be involved in Land based food production. Then some in fishing. Others would be in transport to move food, goods, materials. Then others in support industries.

To the extent possible the centers will be in regions that allow for zero energy housing. These centers should exhibit a mild climate and have adequate fresh water supplies. We will likely we will need a certain number of folks living in temperate regions for farming or excessively hot regions for resource extraction. Their housing will be zero emission to the extent possible.

Farming will be low energy, lots of hand work, striving to find the most efficient methods possible. Perhaps half the population will be directly in farming. The other half will be employed in their crafts. Some will be building, operating, maintaining transport. Some in resource extraction. That will require energy, renewables. Health care, education. So some folks will be building, and maintaining solar and wind farm centers along with the grid and other support mechanisms, e.g. battery recycling and manufacture. And so it goes.

The really big nuts to crack is controlling population and economic growth. AI has a role to play in population control because it relieves the pressure for low cost workers. The economic side I’m at a loss for.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 09:03:39

There must be the theoretical solutions to this predicament of decline to pinpoint the right and wrong of our modern narrative. Solutions in the abstract form a map but then the acceptance there are no solutions and instead a trap allow concrete action. This means we definitely look honestly for the science of ideal solutions in the world of the intellect. We take that then go forth stepping back into the real world of the carbon trap in path dependencies. These mental gymnastics adapts and mitigates based upon first accepting failure that the civilization as-is will not adapt then goes forth with activity based solutions. Society is itself trapped in the condition of being orientated to growth. This means the FAKE Green techno optimist must be seen as wrong and a failure. This does not mean a complete failure just their narrative of success is failing and will fail. The tech must follow behavior and behavior mut be adapted.

There are fantastic tech and knowledge accumulated over centuries. I have more at my finger tips then Leonardo DaVinci had in his brain. What he has that most of us don’t is the gift of understanding. If an awakening occurs with the amount of knowledge at your keyboard then real change can happen for you locally. Yet, that is not the whole story because some of the best knowledge at your fingertips comes from the history of the old ways. It then becomes a process of hybridization in triage of the best of both modern and old plus the mixture of both. It is the mix of old and new that offers huge benefits but the techno optimist shuns the old as backwards and this is where they fail.

The acceptance of decline means increasingly the world will be about salvage and not new stuff. Increasingly because human productive activity will degrade in decline there will be the need to, through life boat wisdom, to take the best of what you can take sacrificing the rest with the understanding everything cannot be saved. The way to get to the wisdom of the life boat is the wisdom of the hospice of the stages of grief. This world is dying and may eventually collpase. The acceptance of this profound understanding allows new activity and an growth of meaning that creates more than is lost. This creation becomes more meaning based than things based techno optimist world.

The world described above makes a lot of sense in the theoretical but the mechanisms to get to that world are hopelessly trapped. It is like a person that needs to swim to shore but can’t swim. He knows the shore is where safety is but he can’t swim. We know the world described above is a better world but it is unworkable as a blueprint but the ideas presented say move this way. So, the individual that can’t swim will make do on his lifeboat with strategies that avoid trying to swim to shore which will kill him. In our case it means stop the MOAR of the same and begin adapting to the failure that will come from the acceptance of this. The failure of MOAR is likely worse than the failure in acceptance. I say likely because this is not for us to know but the fact that the planet is telling us many things points to a possible transformation to better than worse of a bad situation.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 May 2020, 09:31:43

Newfie wrote:What would a “sustainable” world look like?
...
Second that human population needs to be controlled to on the order of 1 billion people to allow Earth systems enough space to heal and exist and develop on their own.
Maybe by the year 2200.


.....
..........
Farming will be low energy, lots of hand work, striving to find the most efficient methods possible.

More likely battery powered tractors and cultivator units charged from solar and wind sources. AI employed in the cultivator units protecting crop plants while pulling weeds to get away from the use of herbicides.

Perhaps half the population will be directly in farming.
Not a chance or need for that.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:01:00

The juggernaut of humanity is simply not manageable by any kind of design at the moment where each citizen pursues his or her own agenda of accumulating wealth and consumption. There are some individuals who understand the big picture and who dedicate resources to resiliency and a smaller foot print. But none of these individuals represent any kind of movement. Montequest in his low power home in Missouri? RealGreen in his organic farm. Newfie on his boat? Ghung with his solar panels? Careinke with his permaculture? Me on top of a mountain? We are just a bunch of eccentric loners who made a choice years ago to not play along. Lol.

Let's get real.

Humans are not anywhere near an inflection point in moving toward a degrowth economy. And nature is coming up to the plate with only plastic bats playing wiffle ball with this innocuous pandemic. The big league consequences are not yet visible.

There are no acts of man, god or nature on the short term horizon that is moving this juggernaut in any meaningful direction toward degrowth. This growth based paradigm will probably out live all of us and we wont even get a whiff of change in the air before we are dead.

That is my view. I would love to exit my mortal existence seeing signs of change either by acts of man, god or nature. But I highly doubt it.

What I want and what the world does is not in sync. This is a lesson we were supposed to have learned when we were adolescents becoming adults.

Let's face it, the most any of us can do is follow your personal creed in living a low impact life.

We are not mentors. We are eccentric anomalies in a sea of depravity. But even so don't think your shit doesn't stink.

How is that for a bitter dose of reality?????????????????? hahahaha LOL........ what a fucking cynic I have become! haha.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:22:18

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote: Perhaps half the population will be directly in farming.
Not a chance or need for that.


Not a chance? That is a bold sentence to back up. Depending on what world thrashes out down the road one things is for sure it will be a world where individuals do more to cover their survival needs which includes growing food, processing food, and preserving food. That I would be bold enough to say is a given in a world entering decline on a planet in long term succession.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:30:22

REAL Green wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote: Perhaps half the population will be directly in farming.
Not a chance or need for that.


Not a chance? That is a bold sentence to back up. Depending on what world thrashes out down the road one things is for sure it will be a world where individuals do more to cover their survival needs which includes growing food, processing food, and preserving food. That I would be bold enough to say is a given in a world entering decline on a planet in long term succession.

Not hard to back up. Once you eliminate the teams of draft animals you no longer need a human walking behind them all day to just till one acre. Once you have an efficient combine you no longer need laborers to pick cotton. All the current machinery can be converted to solar powered battery packs and a solar powered tractor can do the work of thirty hand laborers. All the other equipment like planters just need that tractor to tow them so need no modification. Some downsizing will probably be in order to match battery pack limitations the big diesel tractors don't have but you would build three or four smaller EV tractors to replace the large diesel not go back to laborers with a hoe or shovel.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:38:18

Ibon wrote: We are just a bunch of eccentric loners who made a choice years ago to not play along. Lol.


We are the awakened ones who have the insight to offer some future generation seeds to bring about a rebirth. In the meantime, we are locked away in our monasteries of knowledge and best practices. We are preserving these things like the monks of the middle ages did. At some point these will be unlocked. Maybe much of it is lost in estate sales upon our deaths but somewhere there will be some of this that will be vital help to somebody. Yet, in the meantime all of us are choosing lower footprints for more than common sense but also becuase we love this planet and it hurts us spiritually to see beauty destroyed by plastic crap and joy rides. Personally, I feel this is heroic and possesses higher meaning. The hardship and discomfort are worth the meaning returned to us for our sacrifice. I personally try to stay humble about this becuase I have been blessed with resources, time and good health to pursue this alternative way. Many deserve better but nature only provides so much even for those deserving. This means if I can I want to give back to those who show promise with this lifestyle. To those who live like cavaliers or psychopaths so be it. This is the nature of things too and worrying and getting angry about this just saps my energy that can be better dedicated locally and to significant others. If you are young and have a talent for protests of change go ahead and change the world. I am old and feeling the pain of a long life. I don't have it in me to lead such movements but I am ready to offer an advice to those who are deserving.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:49:30

vtsnowedin wrote: Not hard to back up. Once you eliminate the teams of draft animals you no longer need a human walking behind them all day to just till one acre. Once you have an efficient combine you no longer need laborers to pick cotton. All the current machinery can be converted to solar powered battery packs and a solar powered tractor can do the work of thirty hand laborers. All the other equipment like planters just need that tractor to tow them so need no modification. Some downsizing will probably be in order to match battery pack limitations the big diesel tractors don't have but you would build three or four smaller EV tractors to replace the large diesel not go back to laborers with a hoe or shovel.


That assumes an economy that can produce and maintain these things and it assumes a gradient of at least stable civilization. Take away stability and the ability to produce and these technologies will degrade rapidly. I have already seen this with my farm efforts lately. Things that were available are not now. People I need to fix things are not available like before. What happens when the money I need to make these things happen is gone? It is just as likely this world of loss as the one you described where these necessary inputs are available to use tech to eliminate human toil. I personally am trying to embrace more low carbon capture and human toil to be ready for such a world of decline if it comes. This does not mean I reject tech but instead apply it differently. I do not want tech getting int he way of resilience and sustainability that can occur without it if preparations are made. Better a reserve than have the whole army at the front line. A flexible retreat is often the best when faced with the possibility of overwhelming odds. Last stands usually don't end well except for the romantics who sing songs about bravery.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 13 May 2020, 10:54:25

Ibon wrote:The juggernaut of humanity is simply not manageable by any kind of design at the moment where each citizen pursues his or her own agenda of accumulating wealth and consumption. There are some individuals who understand the big picture and who dedicate resources to resiliency and a smaller foot print. But none of these individuals represent any kind of movement. Montequest in his low power home in Missouri? RealGreen in his organic farm. Newfie on his boat? Ghung with his solar panels? Careinke with his permaculture? Me on top of a mountain? We are just a bunch of eccentric loners who made a choice years ago to not play along. Lol.


On that score I wholeheartedly agree.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 12:01:24

REAL Green

Personally, I feel this is heroic and possesses higher meaning. The hardship and discomfort are worth the meaning returned to us for our sacrifice.


Personally o don’t feel like I’m sacrificing, quite the opposite. This may be because I’ve done my time in jail and am now home free. I’m loving my life.
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