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The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 28 Dec 2019, 10:46:03

It’s pretty scary to think people like that are actual professional economist.

I honestly think it’s better to think of them as “high priests of growth”.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 28 Dec 2019, 11:22:23

Where does money come from, but the faith of the people? Money is only worth what people believe it is. And the authority of the government is a good place to look for a place to collect our understandings.

That being said, my main beef with Modern Money Theory is how those behind it can so easily discount the worth, or effectiveness, of fractional reserve banking - and its ability to adjust the money supply according to the people's needs. It's a magic bullet, compared to top down ordering or five year plans, when it comes to regulating what resources are available for investment as the people need them. Things like universal basic income are not nearly as responsive, though a better answer to starvation, if it should come to that.

I think pitting classes of ownership, to compete over policy input around which the executives of a corporation manage, would get us much further than handing out money over time. To start with, a class could be set up which derives its sole income from the same pool of money, stocks included, which the executives have available to them. The resulting relationship, that class voting for how much return would go to the executives versus how much they would take home, would, I think, tend toward the middle rather than a radical company selling or labor force destroying edge. It would be more dynamic, spending a lot more time exploring a range than fixed around a price point. It would mean that returning value to shareholders would receive challenges to its meaning.
Last edited by evilgenius on Sat 28 Dec 2019, 13:21:24, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 28 Dec 2019, 11:36:56

Evil,

I’m more radical. I liken our vision of the economy to a perpetual motion machine. Nice idea except it defies the basic laws of physics. You can Tim is something up to cool food, for a while but eventually it must stop.

Same thing for a “perpetual growth” economy. It will stop. Best to plan for the slow down. Folks that deny the inevitability of the slow down are not connected to reality.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 28 Dec 2019, 20:27:44

Since people discount the future, even if they know the process is unsustainable they will profit from it while they can and pass the buck to the next generation. So the only question that counts is how much longer the system can go on. Very few people will make sacrifices in the now to better future generations.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 29 Dec 2019, 06:36:51

^1+
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 31 Dec 2019, 13:25:05

Newfie wrote:Evil,

I’m more radical. I liken our vision of the economy to a perpetual motion machine. Nice idea except it defies the basic laws of physics. You can Tim is something up to cool food, for a while but eventually it must stop.

Same thing for a “perpetual growth” economy. It will stop. Best to plan for the slow down. Folks that deny the inevitability of the slow down are not connected to reality.

Among serious economists, there is no denying that things slow down as economies mature. Just look at 30 year growth forecasts (from serious economic analysis) of China or India, for example.

It's just that natural slow down isn't in-our-face doomageddon, which so many of the ill informed wish so strongly for.

Given planetary constraints, things overall had BETTER slow down before too long, or nature will do it for us, and it won't be pretty.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 31 Dec 2019, 13:28:13

asg70 wrote:Since people discount the future, even if they know the process is unsustainable they will profit from it while they can and pass the buck to the next generation. So the only question that counts is how much longer the system can go on. Very few people will make sacrifices in the now to better future generations.

Yup. For an indirect proof, as I'm fond of mentioning, you can't get a HUGE proportion of people to even wisely prepare for their OWN future (re saving, consumption restraint, etc), much less future generations.

The problem is so bad that in the first world, a mandatory "social retirement program" is universal. Even in the "wild west" US.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 31 Dec 2019, 14:07:40

I’ve just read Khanamans Thinking:Fast and Slow. He goes into this in much detail. For all that he wins a Nobel in economics you would think his ideas would be more widely accepted.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 16 Jan 2020, 11:37:11

Yes, this is what the financialization of the world economy means:

Why Manhattan's Skyscrapers Are Empty
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/american-housing-has-gone-insane/605005/
In Manhattan, the homeless shelters are full, and the luxury skyscrapers are vacant.
Such is the tale of two cities within America’s largest metro. Even as 80,000 people sleep in New York City’s shelters or on its streets, Manhattan residents have watched skinny condominium skyscrapers rise across the island. These colossal stalagmites initially transformed not only the city’s skyline but also the real-estate market for new homes. From 2011 to 2019, the average price of a newly listed condo in New York soared from $1.15 million to $3.77 million.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 17 Jan 2020, 12:23:40

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:Since people discount the future, even if they know the process is unsustainable they will profit from it while they can and pass the buck to the next generation. So the only question that counts is how much longer the system can go on. Very few people will make sacrifices in the now to better future generations.

Yup. For an indirect proof, as I'm fond of mentioning, you can't get a HUGE proportion of people to even wisely prepare for their OWN future (re saving, consumption restraint, etc), much less future generations.

The problem is so bad that in the first world, a mandatory "social retirement program" is universal. Even in the "wild west" US.

Why not to make such people a first wave of customers of dieoff?
Any protected degeneration will only breed more degeneration.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 18 Jan 2020, 16:28:06

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:Since people discount the future, even if they know the process is unsustainable they will profit from it while they can and pass the buck to the next generation. So the only question that counts is how much longer the system can go on. Very few people will make sacrifices in the now to better future generations.

Yup. For an indirect proof, as I'm fond of mentioning, you can't get a HUGE proportion of people to even wisely prepare for their OWN future (re saving, consumption restraint, etc), much less future generations.

The problem is so bad that in the first world, a mandatory "social retirement program" is universal. Even in the "wild west" US.

Why not to make such people a first wave of customers of dieoff?
Any protected degeneration will only breed more degeneration.

What? You're mirroring my issue with welfare for any but the severely crippled. The liberals (especially the far left) will be after you in force, since in their opinion, the universe MUST be fair, as that's their belief system. (And I know, they didn't bother to define fair. Who has the time to get a real education when there's so many courses in things like "women's studies" for easy A's if you mimic the teacher?)

Our current system re protecting "those who claim they need the most protection, whether legit or not" IS the means to our overall demise.

The "irony" slot in every dictionary is hysterically laughing at us, about now. :idea:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Jan 2020, 08:06:58

Interesting piece in this topic.


LONDON (Reuters) - A majority of people around the world believe capitalism in its current form is doing more harm than good, a survey found ahead of this week’s Davos meeting of business and political leaders.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-davo ... SKBN1ZJ0CW
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 20 Jan 2020, 19:06:09

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:Since people discount the future, even if they know the process is unsustainable they will profit from it while they can and pass the buck to the next generation. So the only question that counts is how much longer the system can go on. Very few people will make sacrifices in the now to better future generations.

Yup. For an indirect proof, as I'm fond of mentioning, you can't get a HUGE proportion of people to even wisely prepare for their OWN future (re saving, consumption restraint, etc), much less future generations.

The problem is so bad that in the first world, a mandatory "social retirement program" is universal. Even in the "wild west" US.

Why not to make such people a first wave of customers of dieoff?
Any protected degeneration will only breed more degeneration.

And who defines 'degeneration?' Is it down to whether a thing makes a profit? Is this going to go the way of corporations, which can splinter themselves into distinct inner divisions. Then they reward those that are revenue generating. Those that aren't slowly suffer. You know, like the accounting department. It becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, that accounting isn't important. You can say the same thing about the value of art in society, for instance. But it also fosters a sort of paralysis, when a respect for importance becomes a fetish for the nostalgic. I think we, collectively, have a hard time seeing how hard these sorts of decisions really are. It's worse because sometimes these kinds of decisions effect whole generations, or sets of them.
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Re: The Financial System is Destroying the World Economy

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Jan 2020, 20:48:37

My understanding is this, ask what someone from 10,000 BC would do. We have not evolved much from then, we are still working largely within that rule set.
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