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SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 20 Sep 2019, 16:18:45

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:My conclusion is that those who are advocating bans of SF6 should be more sincere and simply advocate bans on electricity grids.
It is that simple. Solution would be a strictly local generation of electricity from renevables to avoid necessity for high voltage power lines.

Funny how you claim that, and yet in the real world, as posts on this thread show, there ARE effective substitutes, and there are plans to eliminate SF6 in spots, and hopefully as Kub points out, this trend will spread.

Just because a substitute isn't perfect or there are trade-offs does NOT mean substitutes can't be used.

I was not aware of rather recent Siemens work.
It also remains to be seen how those vacuum based switches are working in real life and what are consequences of their eventual failure.
It may well be a giant arc destroying entire substation, unless blown off with explosives.
High voltage solutions for 400 000V transmission lines are still not there and those for 115 000V are just being tried with no guarantee of success.

My major argument was that PV or a windmill (up to 2MW at least) does not need any SF6 to operate, contrary to Plant's claims. These are power transmission systems where it is needed.

As usual re all the doomer claims various problems can't be fixed, a little cost or inconvenience is just that -- not a valid implication of either short or long term doom.

Some problems may be fixed and some other problems cannot.
To have a doom it is enough to bump on one doom magnitude problem from category of "unfixable".
To avoid doom you have to be right *all the time*.
For doomer it is enough to be right *once*.

Mind you, resignation from high voltage national grid is actually a good fix of SF6 problem, particularly once renevable technology is reliable enough.
Who said that national grid has to be kept alive at any cost?

OTOH, the most blatant problem of continued significant population growth doesn't get addressed, which makes me pessimistic long term. I'm talking about given technical problems when viable alternatives are well documented (gasp) even when they're not perfect or cost free.

Nuclear war or global pandemic of airborne Ebola like nicety will fix it.
You may breathe easy.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 21 Sep 2019, 17:22:20

EnergyUnlimited wrote:My major argument was that PV or a windmill (up to 2MW at least) does not need any SF6 to operate, contrary to Plant's claims.


I never made that claim.

I noted that SF6 is widely used in the switches that connect windmills and PV arrays to the electrical grid, so the addition of more wind and PV power to the grid is resulting in increasing amounts of SF6 leaking into the atmosphere from the switches. I also noted that SF6 is also used in other industrial applications as well.

---------------------------

Of course it is theoretically possible to manufacture every switch without using SF6, just as it is possible to generate all the world's electricity without using coal or natural gas. But that is much different from the reality we live in where NG and coal-fired power plants are still an important source of electricity and SF6 is still widely used in switches and other industrial products. The bottom line is that out there in the real world the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing about 0.5% every year, while the amount of SF6 in the atmosphere is increasing every year at a rate of ca. 7% per year.

Cheers!
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 21 Sep 2019, 23:37:03

Plantagenet wrote:the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing about 0.5% every year


Something you personally contributed to--thank you very much.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 11:05:06

Wind turbines erected for power generation have SF6 in the switches they need to connect to the grid.

Now Farmers in the EU are blaming SF6 leaks for the deaths of cattle and other livestock in fields around the wind turbines. They claim the SF6 is leaking and settling to the ground around the towers and killing their cows.

sf6-cattle-and-the-increasing-need-for-policy-in-the-eu

If true, this would indicate that significant amounts of SF6 are leaking from the towers in wind farms. And since SF6 is the most powerful Greenhouse gas known to man, I hope somebody is checking those dead cows to see if they were killed by SF6 leaks and checking the wind turbines to see if they are leaking SF6.

Image
Image
I think there's some SF6 leaking around here........
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby GHung » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 14:27:30

Gosh, Planty; that's a deflection worthy of Trump.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 15:18:24

Plantagenet wrote:Wind turbines erected for power generation have SF6 in the switches they need to connect to the grid.

Now Farmers in the EU are blaming SF6 leaks for the deaths of cattle and other livestock in fields around the wind turbines. They claim the SF6 is leaking and settling to the ground around the towers and killing their cows.

sf6-cattle-and-the-increasing-need-for-policy-in-the-eu

If true, this would indicate that significant amounts of SF6 are leaking from the towers in wind farms. And since SF6 is the most powerful Greenhouse gas known to man, I hope somebody is checking those dead cows to see if they were killed by SF6 leaks and checking the wind turbines to see if they are leaking SF6.

That is surely nonsense.
You can breathe mixture of sulfur hexafluoride (SF6) with oxygen, eg can replace air nitrogen with SF6 and breathe this mixture. This results in very deep voice, an opposite effect to hellium.
https://azchemistry.com/side-effects-of ... xafluoride
BTW, This sort of entertainment allows one or few peoples to release about as much GHG within half an hour as a flight of jumbo jet over Atlantic. Doesn't matter, lets party on.
So for cattle to die air would need to contain sufficient amount of SF6 to lower oxygen concentration by few %.
That would require about 15-20% of SF6 by volume or approximately 50% by weight in surrounding air.
Patentely stupid claims.

Mind you, not long time ago you was claiming to understand that SF6 is used in (and is leaking from) switch gear of power transmission lines conneting wind farms (and PV) to grid:

Plantagenet wrote:I never made that claim.

I noted that SF6 is widely used in the switches that connect windmills and PV arrays to the electrical grid, so the addition of more wind and PV power to the grid is resulting in increasing amounts of SF6 leaking into the atmosphere from the switches. I also noted that SF6 is also used in other industrial applications as well.


Now you are claiming that it might be leaking from "the towers of wind farms" and suggesting to check "wind turbines" for leaks.
Eg you really do not understand your own claims as these are contradictory.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 16:20:02

Plantagenet wrote:Now Farmers in the EU are blaming SF6 leaks for the deaths of cattle and other livestock in fields around the wind turbines. They claim the SF6 is leaking and settling to the ground around the towers and killing their cows.

Well, it took me about 5 seconds to check on SF6 being a super-deadly toxin that would fell mass quantities of livestock from a few leaks in switches annnnnnnnnnnnnnd, of course, your blogger isn't exactly a credible mainstream source of information. (Given that the site is a clearly heavily biased anti-wind screed -- via a brief scan of the subject matter).

https://www.sciencedaily.com/terms/sulf ... uoride.htm

Sulfur hexafluoride (SF6) is a gas whose molecules consist of one sulfur atom and six fluorine atoms.

It is colorless, odorless, non-toxic, and non-flammable, and is soluble in water and some other liquids.


While there is the possibility of toxicity if it's broken down in "high stress conditions", OTOH,

Inhaled as a mixture of 80% with 20% oxygen, it produces tingling, excitement, and altered hearing and is a mild anesthetic.

In a field with cows, it's hard to imagine a little SF6 leaking from a switch or three reaching a concentration of over 1%, much less 80%.

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/ ... @DOCNO+825

So while under extreme conditions, like injecting it into patients to do scans, there is some risk, I'm not buying this story at all.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 16:39:35

EnergyUnlimited wrote:not long time ago you was [sic] claiming ..... that SF6 is used in (and is leaking from) switch gear [sic] of power transmission lines conneting [sic] wind farms (and PV) to grid:


Thats because SF6 is used in and leaking from switch gears used to connect things like wind turbines to the grid.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Now you are claiming that it might be leaking from "the towers of wind farms" and suggesting to check "wind turbines" for leaks.


I assume english is not your first language? Please allow me to explain this issue to you again.

If you'd read my post in its entirety instead of taking short snippets out of context you'd see in the very first sentence I clearly say "Wind turbines erected for power generation have SF6 in the switches they need to connect to the grid."

Do you understand that sentence? Do you understand that the SF6 is in the switch gears used to connect the wind turbines on the towers to the grid? Do you see I put that information right in the first sentence so readers wouldn't miss it and get confused ....? And yet somehow you are confused about SF6 being in switch gears?

OK...so if I am interpreting your post correctly, you are complaining that I wrote about farmers in the EU who are concerned that their cows are dying due to SF6 leaking from the wind turbines on the towers, and you are interpreting this to mean that the SF6 is in the towers or the turbines rather then in the switches?

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The SF6 is leaking from switches that connect the wind turbines on the towers to the grid. Those switches are located on the towers, yes, but the towers themselves are not leaking. It is the switches that are of concern. Same thing for the wind turbines. The switches connect the turbines to the grid, but they are not the turbines themselves. I guess you become confused when I wrote that SF6 is leaking "from the towers." I wrote it that way because the towers are VISIBLE and the SF6 diffused outward from them after it exits the switches...i.e. I assumed that anyone reading would be smart enough to realize that the SF6 is in the switches and the switches are mounted within the housing of the towers, and the SF6 leaks that leaks out from the switches doesn't just stay there next to the switches....the SF6 then diffuses out from the housing and disperse outward from the towers into the atmosphere.

This is the second time I've had to explain to you that SF6 is in the switches that are used to connect wind turbines and solar cells to the electrical grid and not in the wind turbines or solar cells themselves. Hopefully twice will be enough. I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you then to tell you over and over again that the SF6 is in the switches, and then to underline the word switches each time in hopes you will see it and understand what the sentence means.

Image
Electrical switchgear containing SF6 being installed in the housing of a tower at a wind farm. Note the switchgear is installed near the top of the tower near the wind turbine. Any SF6 gas that escapes from the switchgear will then leak out of the housing and disperse away from the wind turbine and the tower.

-------------

Your other concern seems to be whether or not the cows who are dying while grazing on wind farms in Europe are being killed by the SF6. I'm afraid you'll have to take that one up with the EU farmers and their cows, since they are the ones who are personally involved. You are right that SF6 is not toxic. It is, however, classified as an asphyxiate, meaning that it can kill if it's present in high enough concentrations, and if you read the web page of the EU farmers that I linked to this seems to be their concern. It seems unlikely to me that enough SF6 would be leaking to cause cows to die (thats why I put a humorous picture of a cow in my post, but I guess you didn't get the joke). Nonetheless, if EU farmers are losing cows set to graze around the towers in wind farms there must be some reason, and it wouldn't hurt to go check and see how much SF6 is leaking or if there is any other substance present that might be causing the cow fatalities.

CHEERS!

PS: Are you an engineer? You seem familiar with some of the technical and engineering aspects of the electrical grid. I'm a physicist myself.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 16:44:45

Outcast_Searcher wrote:In a field with cows, it's hard to imagine a little SF6 leaking from a switch or three reaching a concentration of over 1%...So ... I'm not buying this story at all.


I thought it was unlikely myself. Thats why I included a humorous picture of a bug-eyed cow. Unfortunately no one seems to have got the joke.

However, the larger issue remains. Some amount of SF6 is leaking from the switches. If it takes scientifically illiterate French farmers worried about their cows to get someone to come out and measure how much SF6 is leaking, then I'm for it.

SAVE THE COWS! MEASURE HOW MUCH SF6 is leaking from those towers (or should I say from the switch gears mounted next to the wind turbines inside the housing of the towers so no one could possibly misconstrue something this obvious again).

ChEeRs!
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 00:29:04

Plantagenet wrote:I assume english is not your first language? Please allow me to explain this issue to you again.
explanation about switches will follow - EU

Nevertheless you have written following:
Plantagenet wrote:I hope somebody is checking those dead cows to see if they were killed by SF6 leaks and checking the wind turbines to see if they are leaking SF6

Bold my - EU
...and you are trying to wiggle out of it with rather lenghty and windy post about switches.
Doesn't wash though.

Mentioned switches are not located in turbines.

Plantagenet wrote:Note the switchgear is installed near the top of the tower near the wind turbine.

Individual wind turbine is usually working at 690V between phases, so there is no need for SF6 switchgear on or near top of every tower.
SF6 is for higher voltage applications, so why such switchgear would be located in turbine tower?

PS,
I am by proffession synthetic organic chemist and was working for UK pharma though I am familiar with some aspects of physics.
Was piddling a bit with YAG and I2/O2 lasers while still in university (not just using them, but tweeking with working parameters, vanadate frequency doublers for YAG lasers). Also with lab power supplies.
I have left industry 15 years ago and now run tourism related business.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 18:16:02

EnergyUnlimited wrote: ....a rather lengthy [sic] and windy post about switches.


I'm just answering the lengthy questions you posed to me in your windy post about switches.

---------------------

Perhaps we could resolve this by seeing if there is anything we agree on.......

Do you agree that that SF6 is used in switch gears?

Do you agree that SF6 is leaking from switch gears?

Do you agree that SF6 doesn't stay next to the switches after it leaks, but instead mixes with the air and diffuses out from whatever housing or industrial equipment the switch itself is installed in?

Do you agree that the SF6 that leaks from switch gears and other industrial equipment eventually seeps out from the industrial site and disperses out into the atmosphere?

Do you agree that SF6 is a powerful greenhouse gas?

Do you agree its a bad thing to have rapid growth in the amount of SF6 in the atmosphere because its a powerful greenhouse gas?

CHEERS!
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 02:04:58

Plantagenet wrote:I'm just answering the lengthy questions you posed to me in your windy post about switches.
...

I agree with your statements as specified, including these about switchgear and SF6.
However if you get 1kg SF6 emissions to save 100 tons of CO2 emissions, it is a better deal.

P.S.
You (or farmers, doesn't matter) have mentioned high toxicity of SF6 which at face value is a nonsense.
Now I will tell you from where this toxicity is coming.

Arcing (or coronary discharge) in atmosphere of SF6 contaminated with moisture, particularly in presence of metals like iron, nickel, copper or aluminium is causing following reaction:
4SF6 + 2H2O ---> 2S2F10 + 4HF + O2 [this reaction only proceed in presence of electric discharge]

In absence of moisture another raction can proceed:
2SF6 <---> S2F10 + F2 [this reaction proceeds only in presence of electric discharge and is reversible]
F2 + Cu ---> CuF2 [Fluorine may react with metals like copper to shift reaction above to the right]
So we have at the end:
2SF6 + Cu ---> S2F10 + CuF2

SF6 is inert to health, however S2F10 produced in these reactions is toxic.
S2F10 (disulfur decafluoride) is also a low boiling (boils at 30*C) liquid, so it will be in a form of vapor.

So one way or another S2F10 is formed and it is rather toxic compound (about 4 times more toxic than phosgene and in 1930-ties it was proposed as chemical warfare agent).
In a vapor form it is one of heaviest gases nearly twice heavier than SF6 so it cling to the ground.
Now one can imagine how a cattle in vicinity of working switchgear may get poisoned.
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Re: SF6, windmills, and electricity are killing the planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 11:18:38

EnergyUnlimited wrote:if you get 1kg SF6 emissions to save 100 tons of CO2 emissions, it is a better deal.


Unfortunately what we are getting is both, i.e. both CO2 and SF6 are accumulating in the atmosphere.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:farmers .... mentioned high toxicity of SF6 which at face value is a nonsense.
Now I will tell you from where this toxicity is coming.

Arcing (or coronary discharge) in atmosphere of SF6 contaminated with moisture, particularly in presence of metals like iron, nickel, copper or aluminium is causing following reaction:
4SF6 + 2H2O ---> 2S2F10 + 4HF + O2 [this reaction only proceed in presence of electric discharge]

In absence of moisture another raction can proceed:
2SF6 <---> S2F10 + F2 [this reaction proceeds only in presence of electric discharge and is reversible]
F2 + Cu ---> CuF2 [Fluorine may react with metals like copper to shift reaction above to the right]
So we have at the end:
2SF6 + Cu ---> S2F10 + CuF2

SF6 is inert to health, however S2F10 produced in these reactions is toxic.
S2F10 (disulfur decafluoride) is also a low boiling (boils at 30*C) liquid, so it will be in a form of vapor.

So one way or another S2F10 is formed and it is rather toxic compound (about 4 times more toxic than phosgene and in 1930-ties it was proposed as chemical warfare agent).
In a vapor form it is one of heaviest gases nearly twice heavier than SF6 so it cling to the ground.
Now one can imagine how a cattle in vicinity of working switchgear may get poisoned.


Thanks EnergyUnlimited. I didn't know that.

I suggest you send that information to the EU farmers who are concerned about their cows dying while grazing in wind farms. I'm sure they'd be most interested in your explanation for the cow mortality they are seeing.

HAVE A GREAT DAY!
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