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Tourists are Killing the Planet

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 May 2019, 22:26:51

Yes, exactly. Here in the PO forum we call them Kudzu Apes.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Cottager » Sun 26 May 2019, 06:42:16

jedrider wrote:Tourism in France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_France
Tourism in France directly contributed 77.7 billion euros to gross domestic product, 30% of which comes from international visitors and 70% from domestic tourism spending. The total contribution of travel and tourism represents 9.7% of GDP and supports 2.9 million jobs (10.9% of employment) in the country.


Let's put it this way:

France has a low density rural population and high density city population (pulled this factoid out of my ass, but it appears that way).
France relies upon nuclear energy more than any other country (AFAIK).
France preserves it's history well (AFAIK).

Seems like an ideal post peak-oil society to me.

I didn't mention that their food is great, too. Of course, they have the benefit of ample rainfall and land very suitable to agriculture.

Agriculture in France
https://frenchfoodintheus.org/1913
Today, it employs 3.5% of the French active population. The land consolidation and the reorganization of the agriculture led to a fall in the number of farms. Today, the average size of the farms is much larger than 60 years ago (around 55 hectares).

Today, there are 490,000 farms in metropolitan France and 24,800 in the overseas regions. This represents a Utilized Agricultural Area of nearly 30 million hectares, that is to say still more than half of French territory. This Utilized Agricultural Area is divided in 3 major crops: 63% of cropland (cereal and forage crops mainly), 34% of areas under grass and 3% of perennial crops, vineyards and orchards.

France is the first agricultural power in the European Union. With an agricultural production of 61 billion euros in 2009, it produces 19% of European agricultural goods and has the largest agricultural area.


I don't think that place plenty of nuclear reactors is "ideal post peak-oil society", rather opposite. Without stable electricity supply such area will become uninhabitable for many thousand years. Simply water in spent fuel pools will boil, spitting radioactive waste into atmosphere. Such things need stable society, not "post peak oil".
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby radon1 » Sun 26 May 2019, 08:16:33

KaiserJeep wrote: Apes doing their thing, behaving as apes behave on the surface of a planet, until the planet is no longer a good place to live.

Yes, here comes the space pitch.


Moss does not grow on the dry side of the stone, it prefers the wet side. Instead of producing complex equipment to inhabit the hostile environment of the dry side, moss evolved and produced animals and humans, who are perfectly comfortable on the dry side. Humans even prefer the dry side to the wet one to step on when walking.

As the man with the extensive knowledge of the subject said, " we have no interest in conquering space, we don't need other words, we need a mirror. A human being needs another human being.":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihSuGHjUJ8s

AIs will probably feel more comfortable in space rather than on Earth, just as humans are more comfortable with the stepping stone being dry rather than wet.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 26 May 2019, 10:26:02

Cottager wrote:I don't think that place plenty of nuclear reactors is "ideal post peak-oil society", rather opposite. Without stable electricity supply such area will become uninhabitable for many thousand years. Simply water in spent fuel pools will boil, spitting radioactive waste into atmosphere. Such things need stable society, not "post peak oil".


Exactly my point: It seems like an ideal society. What can go wrong??
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Cog » Sun 26 May 2019, 11:48:01

Spent fuel rods only require a few years of water circulation before the heat and radioactivity subside to levels permitting dry cask storage. In dry cask storage, those spent fuel rods are no danger to anyone as long as they are isolated away from humans. But the anti-nuclear hysterics prevented the use of Yucca Mountain for that express purpose.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Revi » Tue 28 May 2019, 10:12:38

Nuclear waste is not so good for tourism...
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 30 Jun 2019, 13:02:28

Contrails worse for climate change than plane's carbon emissions - study


(And no, this isn't the conspiracy part of contrails or chemtrails or whatever the conspiricists call them :) )

The aviation industry is even worse for climate change than previously thought, with a new study revealing the damage being done by otherwise harmless contrails.

They're so bad, German researchers say, they're responsible for more warming than all aviation carbon emissions ever made - from the day the Wright brothers flew their first plane until now.

...

The researchers modelled the effect contrails would have up until the year 2050, when the skies are expected to be four times busier than they are already. While cleaner fuels will help keep aviation's impact on temperatures in check, the sheer amount of cloud cover formed by contrails will wipe out any gains.


Note: IIRC, while low clouds can have a cooling effect, high clouds, which are what nearly all contrails are, have the opposite net effect.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/20 ... study.html

Paper:
https://www.atmos-chem-phys.net/19/8163/2019/
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 06:26:49

There is no doubt that we need to drastically reduce air travel.

Have you any statistics on the demographics of air travel? How much is tourist, how much is business, other categories?
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 10:02:49

It's pretty obvious that it is not just poor people that are over-populating the earth. Each economic class should be associated with a Earth-Killer Multiplier factor.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 11:34:15

Its funny how no one is ever concerned about military air travel or governmental air travel or travel by the wealthy and famous by private jet.

For instance, now that Nancy Pelosi has reassumed her throne as speaker of the house, she has also commandeered a fleet of private military jets to transport her to her various campaign rallies.

Uber-wealthy retired politicians like Obama and Al Gore also travel mainly by private jet.

Billionaires travel exclusively by private jet. When Trump isn't on AirForce One he's got AirTRUMP to fall back on.

Environmental hypocrites like Drake and DiCaprio denounce global warming, and then fly off in their huge private jets to their various engagements.

Every military fighter jet is essentially a private jet, i.e. it transports 1-2 persons at a time.

Its pretty simple math that people traveling by private jet have a much much much larger carbon footprint then people traveling on standard commercial flights, which are essentially another form of mass transit. Contrails produced by private jets are just as damaging as contrails from commercial jets but the private jet is transporting only a few people.

Image
Former President Obama travels by private jet, leaving a huge carbon footprint behind

CHEERS!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 12:55:03

Plantagenet wrote:
Environmental hypocrites like Drake and DiCaprio denounce global warming, and then fly off in their huge private jets to their various engagements.



In a weird inverted way you have the same cognizant dissonance like Dohboi.

When I make the claim that in aggregate the consumer based middle class are by far the most egregious contributors to global warming this does not fit into the rich are evil narrative that Dohboi likes to defend and so he cannot accept it.

Similarly, for every Trump and Dicaprio flying around on private jets like hogs there are tens of millions of commercial passengers frivolously flying around the planet. It doesn't matter that folks on commercial jets have better fuel efficiency per passenger mile, what matters is that there are fucking millions of them. You are one of them no matter how much you try to squirm around telling funny stories.

Sometimes people are so fucking transparent that I stand in AWE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 13:16:41

Ibon wrote: for every Trump and Dicaprio flying around on private jets like hogs there are tens of millions of commercial passengers frivolously flying around the planet.


What weird inverted ideas you have. When the middle class travels it is "frivolous"....but when the wealthy and powerful jet off to the latest super-post resort or to some eco-resort in Panama or to their seventh home on Lake Como, it isn't frivolous?

Please also consider that you have a personal financial stake in travel, i.e. you earn your livelihood by hosting visitors engaged in "frivolous" travel. If you are really so opposed to "frivolous" travel, I suggest you shut down your hotel biz so no one will frivolously travel to your establishment.

Ibon wrote:It doesn't matter that folks on commercial jets have better fuel efficiency per passenger mile


Of course it matters. Its just common sense that one person flying to a destination by private jet has a much much larger carbon footprint then a person who travels by commercial jet, i.e. mass transit. Its the same thing as car travel.....people traveling one by one in their own private cars have much larger carbon footprints then the people going en masse on the bus or on the train.

Ibon wrote:You are one of them no matter how much you try to squirm around telling funny stories.


Thanks....I appreciate the bit about the funny stories. However, back to the topic......

Please note that you are also "one of them no matter how much you try to squirm around" and point the finger at others. Be honest with yourself. You also have done a great deal of travel by jet, both for business and for tourism, and you now run a tourism business that attracts people to travel by jet to visit your biz, for heaven's sake. How do you think your visitors from around the world get to your mountain compound to stay in your rooms.....by teleportation!?!?!?

Image
Just teleporting in from Tokyo to stay a week in your eco-hotel in Panama, Ibon. No carbon footprint involved, no no no.

Cheers!
Last edited by Plantagenet on Mon 01 Jul 2019, 13:51:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 13:30:24

Plantagenet wrote:[
Please note that you are also "one of them no matter how much you try to squirm around" and point the finger at others. Be honest with yourself.


I have always been honest about this. I post pictures on social media and on our website of pristine cloud forest habitat and I entice people to get on to airplanes and fly across oceans to come visit us. I am directly responsible for aggravating global warming. Our business depends on middle class consumers getting on to jetliners and visiting us. All the nice sustainable trappings of our project here, growing organic coffee, off the grid generation of power, reforestation of former cattle pastures. all of it is part of a tourism infrastructure. We could not financially survive on the agricultural activities of our 400 acres without tourism.

I have every reason to rationalize that what we do here is somehow saving the planet. I have every reason to rationalize promoting tourism as somehow educating folks on the environment. I have every reason to squirm just like you did on your previous post blaming Trumps and the military or Dicaprio and giving yourself a pass because you fly more energy efficiently than they .

If I tried to rationalize as you do I could not look in the mirror.

You seem to have no problem doing this. You can't own your own shit. Shame on you.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 13:50:17

Plant I think all Ibon is really saying is that individually we rich world denizens may not have the eco footprint of a rich person but combined due to our numbers and ways as consumers we are a force to be reckoned with.
So, stay friends and carry on haha
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 14:16:25

Ibon wrote:I have every reason to rationalize that what we do here is somehow saving the planet. I have every reason to rationalize promoting tourism as somehow educating folks on the environment.

If I tried to rationalize as you do.....


I hate to break it to you, but my rationalization is similar to yours and probably even better. My research on global climate change and natural hazards REQUIRES that I travel. My research proposals are independently reviewed by scientists from around the world and found to be important. My research has been mostly funded by the US Government. There are no strings attached...the assumption is that the research is done for the betterment of all mankind. I also do a certain amount of personal travel, but its usually related to my scientific work. For instance my recent trip to Antarctica was personal, but I am now writing two books about it. One fictional work will have an anti-climate change message embedded at the heart of the story.

Get it now?

Ibon wrote:.... your previous post blaming Trumps and the military or Dicaprio and giving yourself a pass because you fly more energy efficiently than they .


I didn't point out the huge carbon footprint that people who fly in private jets have to "give myself a pass." I don't know where you got such a wacky idea. I pointed it out because its a fact, and facts are important. People who travel by private jet have far far larger carbon footprints than those who don't, but every kind of travel involving fossil fuels has a carbon footprint.

Why is this important?

Well, I used to be an officer in an international scientific organisation and on several other scientific projects dealign with climate change. I've mentioned before here that I served as a US delegate to the UNFCC meetings (the UN organization behind the Kyoto Accords and the Paris Accords). One of our tasks was to try to come up with a way to reduce global carbon emissions. One approach we came up with is that each individual would be allocated a carbon budget, i.e. an amount of carbon they could release without doing excessive harm to the climate. People who fly in private jets explode their carbon budget because private jets release much more carbon per trip then commercial jets. Thats just a fact, Ibon, and facts are important.

Ibon wrote:..... shit.....


You don't have to go all potty mouth just because I pointed out you and your tourist biz are part of the problem. As I've said many times, we are ALL part of the problem. I've never ducked my own responsibility. I do however resent it when you or other people try to pretend that they aren't part of the problem. Again, we are all emitting too much carbon and that is the basic problem.

We can all come up with rationalizations for our own carbon emissions, as you did when you said you were "educating" people about nature or as I did when I pointed out that for many years travel has just been part of my job as a scientist. I won't pretend I don't enjoy travel because I do.....but I wouldn't have a job if I wasn't willing to travel. But we aren't unusual...everyone has a rationalization as to why their travel or their new car purchases or whatever are OK, no matter wha the amount of carbon released turns out to be.

Thats why the best way to address carbon emissions is with a top down approach like a carbon tax or a ban on private jets that forces carbon emissions down, as opposed to your approach of bashing other posters at a chat web site. Thats a total waste of time, IMHO.

Cheers!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 15:20:22

That is the closest you ever got to owning your
own shit. Still squirming, but its progress.

People have called me out on stuff on this site
thaty upon reflection I found to be true

Your a grown man Plantagent. Act like it.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 15:26:05

Ibon wrote:That is the closest you ever got to owning your
own xxxxx.


Thats not true.

I've posted again and again that I am responsible for my travels and my CO2 emissions and my effect on global climate.

As are you.

As is everyone on earth.

And I've managed to admit my own responsibility for my own CO2 emissions without once going potty mouth and all the while maintaining my sunny disposition and my rapier like wit.

I hope you are having a great season at the eco-lodge, Ibon. I admire what you've accomplished there.

Cheers!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 15:36:04

"There is no doubt that we need to drastically reduce air travel.

Have you any statistics on the demographics of air travel? How much is tourist, how much is business, other categories?"

Thanks, Newf. And I don't have a breakdown right now, but as P points out, there are other forms of air travel to consider as well.

I have to go cull a few hundred pounds of food now to use in the foodshelf/soup kitchen I work for, which will help reduce the carbon footprint of food waste a bit. (And no, no one I know of who regularly uses our food is generating more babies with it, so don't bother even trying to go there, folks :) ). I'll see if I can find some, but others are free to search for this stuff on their own, especially if they have strong claims about it, as some here seem to.

Glad to see my little factoid spawned such a vigorous, and perhaps fruitful, discussion. And mods can of course feel free to change the title of the thread if they truly find it offensive. Perhaps something like 'Airtravel--If you do it, you are contributing to CC probably more than you think' ...well, that might not fit in the title space provided...I'll keep working on it :)
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 20:14:45

Look at this article from 2018

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarc ... cb7206150f

The aviation industry has seen dramatic growth over the past 20 years, with passenger numbers rising from 1.467 billion in 1998 to 3.979 billion in 2017, according to statistics from the International Civil Aviation Organization.


Airlines are ramping up to serve more passengers by modernizing their fleets and adding buying new generation aircraft that are more fuel-efficient and also by becoming more sophisticated retailers, to compete with low-cost rivals while maintaining healthy profitability.


3.97 billion passengers in 2017.... and forecasted to double in the next 20 years.

That means 7.8 billion passenger flights forecasted for 2035.... That happens to be our current human population. That means that in 2035 it is like every current human being alive on planet earth would make 1 flight each.

Put Caprio, Trump, Pelosi and all the other rich bastards on one column. But the 3.5 billion plus on the other column.

And tell me where the bulk of the air travel is????????????????
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 01 Jul 2019, 20:23:54

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:That is the closest you ever got to owning your
own xxxxx.


Thats not true.

I've posted again and again that I am responsible for my travels and my CO2 emissions and my effect on global climate.

As are you.

As is everyone on earth.

And I've managed to admit my own responsibility for my own CO2 emissions without once going potty mouth and all the while maintaining my sunny disposition and my rapier like wit.

I hope you are having a great season at the eco-lodge, Ibon. I admire what you've accomplished there.

Cheers!


I appreciate your comments. Plant, owning your own shit is owning your own waste. We are all culpable. Comes back to something years ago I said here, "Who contributes more to global warming, An unemployed meth addict in Ohio with his kids running around in soiled diapers or a Silicon valley family who takes an environmental educational trip down to Mount Totumas Cloud Forest to watch birds?

Plantagenet wrote:Thats why the best way to address carbon emissions is with a top down approach like a carbon tax or a ban on private jets that forces carbon emissions down,
Cheers!


Government regulation, government mandating your lifestyle choice of flying, government adding another tax, Top down global treaty that supercedes your national sovereignty.

Can't you hear the whining already?

If we enact this we will lose millions of jobs...... etc. etc. etc.
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