Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

EVs are just better!

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 10 Jan 2019, 13:21:27

Look, let us quit fighting over this topic.

Firstly, I believe we can all agree, we are running out of oil. We may not know exactly when the shortage will happen, or how quickly the price of liquid fuels will increase, but we know it will happen. The miles driven by ICE vehicles will decline over time.

Secondly, in spite of a very large embedded energy tab, EVs do not require liquid fuels. They will forever require some petroleum, since tires for example are made from a petroleum product called neoprene. However they can be fuelled by any flavor of electricity. The prime source of electricity for some decades has been coal power plants. That remains true but may someday soon change to renewable energy.

Meanwhile a solar fanatic like Baha can ride around on sunlight, burning no FF's. As could anyone who can afford a (minimum) $60K Tesla automobile, and a solar rooftop.

The only thing that prevents me from owning a Tesla vehicle is price. I estimated that the 6-seat Tesla SUV would cost me over $160K, and the annual depreciation alone was in the range of the total purchase price I was actually prepared to pay.

The only present EV plans I have - because of the stiff price penalty alone - is an adult electric tricycle which will set me back about $3300, configured to order and delivered to Nantucket. That vehicle costs $2400 before the electric conversion, and has an all-electric range that will let me ride it a week between charges on a 4-mile-wide-by-7-mile-long island crossed with bike paths.

The very moment that car-type EVs become more affordable, I'll own one. Meanwhile, I remain interested in Baha's experiences. I am not at all interested in reading anybody's posts that do anything but mock his choices. His EV ownership is forward-looking.

Understand this: When the time comes and liquid fuels are very expensive, limited to emergency responders and agriculture and the 1%-ers, Baha will have a usable car and the means to fuel it, because he purchased same BEFORE the lack of affordable FF's made that purchase prohibitively expensive.

Perhaps you are planning to wait until after the fuels are expensive. When the components to build a Tesla must be manufactured and transported via electricity and a finished vehicle will cost perhaps $500K. Or the tricycle I plan to own will cost $30K.

Or perhaps your plan is to simply die. IMHO, those that mock EVs at this juncture, with all our fates only too clear, deserve to do so.

So, when do you plan to give up FF's and get your EV?
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 10 Jan 2019, 14:09:40

Cog wrote:This is not a Republican or Democrat issue asg70. I doubt the Koch brothers have a clue either way about EV's.


You're rather out of touch...
"this is peak now. Wanna bet? The Real Pain starts . . . now." (11/21/18)" --pstarr
"$0/barrel soon as per etp." (12/30/18)" --pstarr
ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Thu 10 Jan 2019, 14:11:28

KaiserJeep wrote:
Meanwhile a solar fanatic like Baha can ride around on sunlight, burning no FF's. As could anyone who can afford a (minimum) $60K Tesla automobile, and a solar rooftop.


That's if you want to pay retail for all new stuff. An old friend of mine found a used Leaf in great shape for about $1800 and had a guy in Asheville put in a new battery upgrade (30 kWh I think). I helped him put 4kW of panels on his detached garage, put in a set of lead-acid batteries, a good used Trace inverter (4kW) and a charger. Total cost, including the new Leaf battery, was well under $20k. It's not a car I would want to go cross country in, but he's in motoring heaven. It gets him to town to shop, to his doctor appointments, church, all that, and taxes, insurance, maintenance are dirt cheap. The system also acts as a backup for his small home. I actually think this old guy is quite well off, but watches every penny. He's very cheery to be around, except when his son, who drives a big Lincoln Navigator, comes around.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 10 Jan 2019, 14:33:40

Yes, I agree with your comments. I will have a system myself for a more modest investment, although on Nantucket, a solar PV system is less usable than a wind turbine, as the island is on the NOAA list of the 10 most optimal wind power locations.

There is actually some renewable expertise on Nantucket already, because the nearby island of Tuckernuck, which has no electric service, is occupied and has a dozen-odd year-round homes and twice that many Summer-only homes.

https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/19293080?guests=1&adults=1

Image
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 11:25:14

KaiserJeep wrote:I will have a system myself for a more modest investment, although on Nantucket


Hate to burst your bubble but low-lying islands don't make a good doomstead for what should be obvious reasons.
"this is peak now. Wanna bet? The Real Pain starts . . . now." (11/21/18)" --pstarr
"$0/barrel soon as per etp." (12/30/18)" --pstarr
ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 11:49:20

Which is perfectly fine by me, since I'm not a big doomer. I believe in the "Long Emergency" scenario, which I believe has already begun and will worsen for the next century.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 12:02:10

asg70 wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:I will have a system myself for a more modest investment, although on Nantucket


Hate to burst your bubble but low-lying islands don't make a good doomstead for what should be obvious reasons.

Which brings up the point that doom is in the eye of the beholder's belief system, so appropriate doomer prep will vary wildly.

KJ has repeatedly expressed that he doesn't believe in AGW. Therefore, rapid short term SLR isn't as big a concern for him as, say, AGW alarmists (which I am). OTOH, he is far more concerned about potential significant energy shortages driving prices up by a lot than I am. (I think that substitution, mitigation, and technology will temper the overall price trend re fossil fuels, as it has since I started paying attention in the late 70's (when things, given the trends, seemed very alarming indeed, re fossil fuel price trajectory).

And to be realistic, if he's over 60, (as I presume since I'm pretty sure he's stated he's about to retire), he won't very likely care as much about SLR in the next 30 or so years as folks in their 20's very likely will in their retirement, even if the AGW alarmists are correct.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 6116
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 14:48:26

KaiserJeep wrote:Which is perfectly fine by me, since I'm not a big doomer. I believe in the "Long Emergency" scenario, which I believe has already begun and will worsen for the next century.


OK, well, rate of sealevel rise not withstanding, you're probably only one Hurricane-Sandy-style storm-of-the-century style event away from having your home swept away, which is likely to happen long before those islands are completely submerged.
"this is peak now. Wanna bet? The Real Pain starts . . . now." (11/21/18)" --pstarr
"$0/barrel soon as per etp." (12/30/18)" --pstarr
ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 15:38:06

Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, Cape Cod, and the minor area islands such as Tuckernuck are the 5000-6000 year old remnants of the sand heaped up by advancing glaciation, and were contiguous parts of the mainland as the Ice retreated, and later eroded into a quite scenic peninsula and islands. The center Nantucket area where my home is located is 86 feet above mean sea level and is expected to be above water for at least 400-600 years. The very highest nearby land, called "Alter Rock" is about 20 feet higher than my 3 acres.

I take your meaning, however, I recall many Nantucket beach structures lost to the sea. It's simply not happening as fast as people like to think. As Tanada said earlier, a snail could easily outpace SLR. However, that one seaside hole on the Miacomet golf course is doomed in a century or less.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5703
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 18:43:36

It's an EV, does 0-60 in 3 seconds, has a 400 mile range, and it's an off-road very capable (Hell Yeah!) pickup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw

About the price of a Tesla Model S, with more range.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 19:02:54

GHung wrote:It's an EV, does 0-60 in 3 seconds, has a 400 mile range, and it's an off-road very capable (Hell Yeah!) pickup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw

About the price of a Tesla Model S, with more range.

Watching either one beat a fast Porsche in a drag race would be amusing.

180 kWh battery! Given the starting price point they're claiming, the myth the Tesla fanbois keep stating, that Tesla can't be touched by the competiton looks in jeopardy. Even if there are quality issues at first -- that's just like Tesla, but more and apparently better vehicle for the money.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 6116
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 19:29:54

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
GHung wrote:It's an EV, does 0-60 in 3 seconds, has a 400 mile range, and it's an off-road very capable (Hell Yeah!) pickup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMfxJEfb4lw

About the price of a Tesla Model S, with more range.

Watching either one beat a fast Porsche in a drag race would be amusing.

180 kWh battery! Given the starting price point they're claiming, the myth the Tesla fanbois keep stating, that Tesla can't be touched by the competiton looks in jeopardy. Even if there are quality issues at first -- that's just like Tesla, but more and apparently better vehicle for the money.


I would enjoy watching it blow away some of the obscenely loud Ram Hemi pickups running around our county, then compare their off-road performance. That adaptive 4 motor AWD will probably climb a tree. Apparently, this Rivian can control the forward/reverse of each wheel independently, conceivably giving it a zero turn radius.

Actually, my wife's Subaru will pull a muddy or snowy hill better than my Ranger FX4. We tested that when we were building the house.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 19:43:38

GHung wrote:That adaptive 4 motor AWD will probably climb a tree. Apparently, this Rivian can control the forward/reverse of each wheel independently, conceivably giving it a zero turn radius.

That's a great point, which I had similar thoughts about re amazing versatility and performance. It's already impressive what people that know what they're doing can handle with just a jeep, say, rock crawling. That kind of technology could make the kind of thing normal drivers sometimes worry about (like getting stuck in a foot of snow or on sheer ice, or in mud) literally a thing of the past, under any normal city circumstances on any car with reasonable ground clearance.

And since much of that on a nice EV would be software, it wouldn't even have to be all that expensive, but it sure would be a great option to have. For reliability, I would presume they should be able to shut down one motor having problems, and let you safely drive (under moderate conditions) on the other three.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 6116
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 20:53:41

Electric motors are clearly better in every way than ICEs. More torque, more control, lighter weight, less complexity in the drive-train, far fewer moving parts, less maintenance, longer life, and with economies of scale, ultimately cheaper. The limits imposed by range, battery performance and costs, and recharge times, are being addressed pretty quickly. I think in ten years the naysayers will be eating as much crow as the peak oil doomers have lately, if the global economy doesn't flatline. Not that any of this will save us, but that's another story.
Last edited by GHung on Fri 11 Jan 2019, 20:54:50, edited 1 time in total.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 20:54:22

Here is what junk energy with a junk currency (Euro) can buy: NOTHING. It cannot pay the diesel bill.

https://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/e ... 18217.html

"The 18 employees of Endesa’s Llanos Blancos diesel plant …. are demanding compensation for their quadrupled work load since GdV opened. In 2014 when GdV was not in operation, Llanos Blancos performed 2,144 operations. Combined operations from GdV and Llanos Blancos in 2016 totalled 9,066, with 7,917 of these corresponding to GdV.”"
America will soon be renamed AFoodBank and then AForeClosed
StarvingLion
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 20:57:21

StarvingLion wrote:Here is what junk energy with a junk currency (Euro) can buy: NOTHING. It cannot pay the diesel bill.

https://www.eldiario.es/canariasahora/e ... 18217.html

"The 18 employees of Endesa’s Llanos Blancos diesel plant …. are demanding compensation for their quadrupled work load since GdV opened. In 2014 when GdV was not in operation, Llanos Blancos performed 2,144 operations. Combined operations from GdV and Llanos Blancos in 2016 totalled 9,066, with 7,917 of these corresponding to GdV.”"


Maybe those folks can get a job cleaning all that diesel soot off of all those statues and cathedrals. Probably better hours. 8O
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 20:59:55

Face it, Lithium is the wrong battery chemistry. Mining has to get hugely cheaper and with Lithium that can never happen.

Your only hope is Magnesium. Now you have the problem the battery is too big and heavy. You're doomed.

The Tesla scam has never produced an economic vehicle in its lifetime. Of course, the MMT cranks like baha don't care. They want to print useless products that have no economic purpose and they are doing a great job.

Outcast_Searcher has no credibility either because he believes in runaway trade deficits.

The USD is beginning to collapse again. Have fun buying a useless car with a worthless currency.
Last edited by StarvingLion on Fri 11 Jan 2019, 21:44:18, edited 1 time in total.
America will soon be renamed AFoodBank and then AForeClosed
StarvingLion
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 21:06:11

StarvingLion wrote:.........

The USD is beginning to collapse again. Have fun buying a useless car with a worthless currency.


Shit,,, I'll just stay home like I do most of the time anyway. I wouldn't mind having an old solar-charged Leaf or somesuch, just because....
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2674
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 11 Jan 2019, 21:33:05

asg70 wrote:There was a piece in Wired magazine lately that documented the production-hell at Tesla in unprecedented level of detail. Elon Musk thinks he's just being aggressive but his approach is ultimately a form of mismanagement. Engineers tend not to make good managers because they're more interested in solving problems than operations. They have trouble adopting an if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach. The end result is a lot of trial and error that is great when you have an unlimited R&D budget but not when you have to just go pencils down and ship lots of quality and reliable finished product. I think industry people realize this but Musk doesn't and this is part of why he can't retain C-level talent. So instead he just tries to run the floor himself but he's just out of his element in a lot of areas as nobody is an expert in everything.

A lot of the design considerations of the Model 3 are really not relevant at its current pricepoint. They probably could have gotten by with an all aluminum body like the Model S if that's so much of an issue. Same deal with making it a sedan vs. a small SUV. They did all this to be able to sell it at $35K and it didn't pan out so they just punted the base car indefinitely. In the short-run it hasn't shown up on the balance-sheets but he pissed off a lot of first-day reservists and the market for more of an upscale vehicle has limits.

When I look at the big picture I really think VW has a better shot than Tesla long-term. The current VW is pretty far removed from the Dieselgate scandal. All of the people involved have been purged. And it scarred them enough to want to push towards EVs as a rebranding effort. They have expertise in operating at scale where Tesla lacks. The only thing they need to prove is that they can source enough batteries.


Mickey Musk has a Physics problem. He doesn't know how to put a Magnesium battery in the Model 3.

The Physics Failures at The Physically, Morally Bankrupt "Federal" "Reserve" are worse than useless. Modern Physics (Quantum Fields and Relativity) is rubbish and now seen by the fact that this Command Economy Scam called Tesla can't deliver 18th Century Battery Technology. Keep worshipping their junk physics, and you'll soon be a carcass pushed around by a bulldozer.

Even MMT Crackpot asg70 has now abandoned Tesla Motors as a lost cause. Fake money doesn't work.

You people may as well just tie two Powerwall batteries to your ankles and hurl yourselves into the nearest lake.

Diesel, its a hit, don't give me any of that do-good good bullshit.

Doomed by The Diesel Bulldozer.
America will soon be renamed AFoodBank and then AForeClosed
StarvingLion
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: Sat 03 Aug 2013, 17:59:17

Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 12 Jan 2019, 02:22:30

StarvingLion wrote:...you'll soon be a carcass pushed around by a bulldozer.


And you'll be any better off? I mean, lots of blind schadenfreude going on, but in your hopeless scenario you're in the same damn boat as the rest of us, so wipe the smug off your face.
"this is peak now. Wanna bet? The Real Pain starts . . . now." (11/21/18)" --pstarr
"$0/barrel soon as per etp." (12/30/18)" --pstarr
ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!
asg70
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2157
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 13:17:28

PreviousNext

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests