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Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 18:34:17

By looking at a PVT graph one can tell whether refinable crude, or diluent is being produced by that well. Look at the right scale, Pressure; then the bottom scale, Temperature. In your mind (and this will be the hard part) see where the horizontal line crosses the phase lines. At 5,300 psi you have 6.8% C7+ molecules by volume. It is not worth running through a refinery, so sell it as diluent. (was that difficult?). The discount used to be pretty small, but diluent is going down in price. It must be time to cut supply a little. A few failed bond sales in HY, in shale should do it! Cut off these guys cash flow, and they are gone yesterday! Shale is looking at some "selective" house cleaning.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 19:03:10

For a $1.7 trillion dollar a year industry, that generates $116 billion annually in profits, $35 billion is starting to add up. Companies have a habit when things start getting tight to start looking for dead wood. Anyone not working their acreage is not needed, and goes into the dead wood file. "HAY, Ham; you still around?"
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 19:19:02

Abstract

Past studies have shown that use of diluent injection with ESPs can be an efficient artificial lift method for heavy oil fields. It consists of injecting a light hydrocarbon liquid to reduce the oil density and viscosity


Then, thr'is them's, that think that elves mine it, with magic shovels. Ask Roc, he'll tell you all about them. Texas has a lot of them.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 19:59:08

Short, you are soooooooo messing with the trolls. It's awesome. I stand in awe :)
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 20:51:40

lol
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 21:13:06

It's kind of like knocking the feathers off of a dead three day old buzzard!
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 05 Dec 2018, 21:31:14

By looking at a PVT graph one can tell whether refinable crude, or diluent is being produced by that well. Look at the right scale, Pressure; then the bottom scale, Temperature. In your mind (and this will be the hard part) see where the horizontal line crosses the phase lines. At 5,300 psi you have 6.8% C7+ molecules by volume. It is not worth running through a refinery, so sell it as diluent. (was that difficult?). The discount used to be pretty small, but diluent is going down in price. It must be time to cut supply a little. A few failed bond sales in HY, in shale should do it! Cut off these guys cash flow, and they are gone yesterday! Shale is looking at some "selective" house cleaning.
BW


You are without a doubt the biggest moron we have to deal with here. The PVT you show is for a condensate sample, it isn’t for a light oil sample, a volatile oil sample or anything else. What the frig do you think it will show? The carbon preference index or break down of it’s volatile components doesn’t tell you it can’t be processed, it only tells you who might be willing to buy it as it definitely can be processed and has been for decades. All refineries are not the same although apparently in your little make-believe world they are and apparently they all purchase oil based on it's specific gravity. :roll:

But lets look at a quote from Wintershall’s website. Wintershall being one of the larger oil and gas producers internationally.

Some oils are light, can be used almost immediately and are therefore very valuable. Other oils are heavy and have to undergo additional refining processes before they can be used. One of the lightest and most valuable crude oils is condensate which is used to produce products like petrol, jet fuel, diesel and heating fuels.


And then you also better tell the Iranians that it isn’t possible to process condensate. They spent billions on the Persian Gulf Star Refinery which handles condensate exclusively without blending and produces 24 million litres per day of petrol.

And once more lets look at the definition of diluent as it applies to oil and gas

What is diluent?
Diluent is a diluting or thinning agent and it’s really important to the oil sands. That is because the bitumen that makes up Canada’s oil sands is too viscous or thick to be pumped through a pipeline. At cold temperatures bitumen has the viscosity that is somewhat like molasses. By diluting the bitumen it can more easily flow through pipelines to be refined and sold.
from oilsands 101

or from the Schlumberger oilfield glossary:

A hydrocarbon fluid that is used to dilute heavy oil and reduce its viscosity for easier transportation. Generally a distillation tower cut such as naphtha is used as for heavy oil dilution and transportation. The added diluent may be recovered at the destination using distillation and the diluent may be subsequently pumped back for blending.


As I said previously total production of condensate in the US is about 10% of the total production of LTO and even less so when you exclude plant condensate. Suggesting all LTO has the same PVT properties or that condensate overwhelms production is basically stupid, the data is right there for anyone who wants to look. But once again Short tries to spin a tale without data or misusing a bunch of data he doesn't understand.

It is absolutely astounding to me how you can continue to post completely ignorant statements with such authority, ignore any posts that correct you and then expect to be taken seriously by anyone on this board. Do you actually think you are impressing anyone here with the complete and utter drivel you write? :roll:
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 00:33:34

rockdoc123 wrote:Do you actually think you are impressing anyone here with the complete and utter drivel you write?


The sad thing is that he still has a small sympathetic audience here.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 01:51:33

As a self-described liberal, a person concerned with global warming you might reconsider your as a oil industry flack.

Asgy, you are not so naive as to believe rockdentist goes through all this effort just for sh#ts and giggles. He's paid handsomely. I hope you are? On second thought . . . nah lol
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby marmico » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 07:18:45

Asgy, you are not so naive as to believe rockdentist goes through all this effort just for sh#ts and giggles.


After your 2000 posts per year at a penny a post for 14 years, you have snagged $2800.00. Congrats.

Back to diluent.

The Kinder Morgan Cochin and Enbridge Southern Lights pipelines combined export ~225,000 barrels per day of condensate to the Alberta oil sands. US light tight oil (LTO) production is ~6,800,000 barrels per day. The ratio of exported pipeline condensate to Canada relative to US LTO production is 3.3%.

https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/pp ... n-eng.html
https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/pp ... s-eng.html
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 08:54:33

It looks like the plucked buzzards are trying to regroup? Their naked little heads are poking above the mountain of PVT graphs that buried them. If they could figure out how to read them they might find a way out? For a buzzard it's hard to follow the lines on those graphs; one eye points in one direction, and the other one goes some where else? Maybe the oil mining elves with the magic shovels can help them, or maybe they can float to safety on that US produced ocean of diluent. One thing for sure is that they don't have to worry about drowning in a sea of crude oil! :mrgreen:
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 09:23:21

marmico wrote:Back to diluent.

The Kinder Morgan Cochin and Enbridge Southern Lights pipelines combined export ~225,000 barrels per day of condensate to the Alberta oil sands. US light tight oil (LTO) production is ~6,800,000 barrels per day. The ratio of exported pipeline condensate to Canada relative to US LTO production is 3.3%.

https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/pp ... n-eng.html
https://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/pp ... s-eng.html


There you go again, confusing the structural belief system with mere FACTS and FIGURES!
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:59:36

pstarr wrote:He's paid handsomely


Take off the tinfoil hat. There's no purpose in paying someone to spout a particular viewpoint on a site that probably gets at most 100 hits a day if you count lurkers. It's both paranoia AND delusions of grandeur over a site that became a ghost town long ago.

Not only that, you could say the same thing about peak oil in general. With TOD long gone and ASPO disbanded, there's not much threat of peak oil doomerism gaining traction. So there's really no need on the part of vested interests to try to control these discussions.

Bottom line is the viewpoints expressed here are purely our own as individuals. The only one with a true financial conflict of interest would be Short (aka The Hills Group).

Unfounded paid-shill/sockpuppet accusations are really one level below ad hom in being content-free non-responses. And THAT is the reason you reach for it. It's pure avoidance tactics.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 13:13:02


Reservoir Fluid Types
1. Dry Gas
2. Wet Gas
3. Gas Condensate
4. Volatile Oil
5. Black Oil

Classification based upon:
Reservoir temperature relative to the critical point and
criconde

Properties at the 1st stage separator temperature and
pressure relative to the fluid phase diagram.


http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/docum ... _mavor.pdf

Although volatile-oil reservoirs contain less oil per unit volume, they typically yield slightly higher oil recoveries than black-oil reservoirs because of their higher dissolved-gas content and lower oil viscosity. Ultimately, volatile-oil reservoirs may yield greater oil reserves than black-oil reservoirs. Light black oils and heavy volatile oils are among the most economically attractive reservoir fluids.

There has been no systematic study to determine the relative percentage of black-oil and volatile-oil reservoirs; however, an examination of the world’s 500 largest reservoirs reveals that black-oil reservoirs overwhelmingly dominate the group. [2] One reason there are more black-oil than volatile-oil reservoirs is that the latter are characteristically located at greater depths than the former. As exploration continues to go deeper, more volatile-oil reservoirs can be expected to be discovered.

https://petrowiki.org/Oil_fluid_characteristics

One way to determine if a well is producing processable crude,or diluent is to look at the average Molecular Weight of the production. A MW of less than 40 is diluent, or an API gravity of more than 45. This constituets a C7+ fraction of less than 6%. It is the point were the concentration of C7+ molecules becomes too low to make refining into finished fuels economically viable.

Another simple approach to determining if an oil is a processable crude, or just a diluent is to look at the GOR (Gas Oil Ratio) of the produced fluids. MW is closely associated with GOR. A GOR above 3,500 (3.5 Mcf/barrel) is a diluent; it generally has an MW of less than 40, and an API above 45. 1.0 barrel of oil equals 5.8 Mcf of gas on a BTU bases.

The GOR of major shale deposits:
Bakken 1.0 - 1.2 Mcf/ barrel 22.4%
Eagle Ford - 6.0 Mcf/ barrel 102.0%
Permain - 2.0 Mcf/ barrel 34.0%

According to these figures a little more than half of the shale production in the US would have to be considered as a diluent. As a shale well is produced its GOR approaches 100% in 5 years, that is no oil, just gas. For shale to continue to produce processable crude the US will have to drill and complete 1.5 million new wells of its present 1.7 million shale wells over the next 5 years. That will entail a cost, beyond the revenue those wells generate, of $5 to $10 trillion. The US claim of being a major world oil producer will be very short lived. The economic impact will be inestimable. The geopolictical impact will be dire!

https://runelikvern.online/2014/12/11/w ... water-cut/
https://www.eia.gov/maps/pdf/eagleford122914.pdf
https://oilbits.wordpress.com/gas-oil-ratios/


https://www.forbes.com/sites/arthurberm ... hale-play/
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 20:05:06

One way to determine if a well is producing processable crude,or diluent is to look at the average Molecular Weight of the production. A MW of less than 40 is diluent, or an API gravity of more than 45. This constituets a C7+ fraction of less than 6%. It is the point were the concentration of C7+ molecules becomes too low to make refining into finished fuels economically viable.


Once again this crap. Diluent, you stupid freaking moron is what is used in pipelines and currently, it makes up somewhere north of 3% of total LTO produced (as Marmico posted the documentation on) the rest is processed as oil. I am not sure if you are illiterate or just stupid but continuing to refer to LTO as “diluent” is akin to calling water soda pop :roll:

It is quite clear after the number of times you have been told you really don’t understand what is going on in the refineries around the world and especially the US. I repeat myself once more the refineries in the US have been retooled in order to make money off of the heavy ends that result from the distillation process. These units are now fluid catalytic cracking refineries that break down the heavy ends left over from the distillation process (along with gasoil in some cases) in order to crack and create gasoline. The light ends are already processed in those same refineries through the distillation process. The reason that not much LTO is run through these plants on their own is two fold 1. The chemistry is somewhat different and often has a wax content that limits refining capability and 2. The distillation units have been downsized in order to concentrate on throughput in the FCC units which creates a volume constraint. Light oil can be processed in these plants given that both light oil and a mix of light and heavy or medium crude is put through distillation before cracking. The refiners who have retooled make most of their money from cracking and mixing the fuels created there with the fuels that are created through the distillation process. Around the world there are numerous plants that handle LTO specifically with mixing. They are called topping plants or hydroskimmers but the output is gasoline, diesel and some other light components that are utilized elsewhere. As I pointed out in Iran there is the Persian Gulf Star Refinery that processes only condensate (i.e. almost zero heptanes through decanes but with a high yield of light and heavy naptha) and it produces a considerable amount of petrol. In 2013 two refineries were brought online in North Dakota to process nothing but Bakken in order to create diesel which is in high demand in the area. But this is not new to anyone who actually works in the business and it is published all over the place. An example in diagrammatic form here from Oilsands Magazine:

Image

the bottom line is that if the refinery owners wanted to they could retool their current refineries to deal with a much greater volume of LTO or instead they could build simple refineries (which are much cheaper) to process LTO without blending it just as it has been done elsewhere for decades.

According to these figures a little more than half of the shale production in the US would have to be considered as a diluent. 


Well I guess first we have to translate that sentence from Moron speak to English. I assume what you were trying to say is “a little more than half of the shale production in the US would have to be considered as condensate” given you clearly do not have the capacity to understand what the term “diluent” means in oil and gas terminology.

And even that statement would be incorrect given that half of the total US production is from the shales which amounts to ~5.5 MMbbl/d in 3rd quarter 2018. Half of that is ~2.7 MMbbl/d and according to EIA condensate production was around 600 Kbbl/d. So your math appears to be way off. :roll:

But one only has to do a simple sense check to see if there is really any inherent problem with US LTO oil production at the moment.

As I said total LTO is around 5.5 MMbbl/d and the US is importing just shy of 5 MMbbl/d of heavy crude from Canada and Venezuela. In a previous post I pointed out that typical blends for distillation in FCC refineries in the southern US is 41% LTO to 59% heavy crude. Currently, that means there is very little surplus LTO to deal with. Canada would gladly ship more heavy oil to the US if there were adequate means of transport which would make prices more attractive so greater production of LTO would likely not be a big issue. And if it was, the existing refineries can be retooled for more distillation capacity or smaller simple refineries can be commissioned which deal exclusively with LTO. The EIA wrote an analysis paper on this subject in 2017 that says almost the exact same thing.

Shortonbrains hand-wringing exercise on this subject is nothing more than a tempest in a teapot I'm afraid.
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 21:31:02

I just graduated from the Econocyst School of Nothingburgers with honors for finding key formulas. Watch for my new book in 2019 entitled "Wreckonomics: Just Keep Piling Up Debt Forever and Fuggetaboutit"

"Renewables" "Energies" = -(Infinite Energy)
Capitalism = EveryoneIsAnOilImporterSoWhat?
Progress = Growing Dope and plastering the Human with Wearable Electronics and Fluidics implants
Democracy = Price of Oil = 0
Total Collapse is Imminent
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 21:37:38

The Oil Industry has been bankrupt since 1990. The Prudhoe Bay Gas Station went dry and flatlined in early 2000's and thats what killed the stock of GE. rockdoc and the rest of his non-idiot CEO's couldn't find a Prudhoe Bay if it was right under their feet.

Bullshitter rockdoc in summary:

Fraudulent Reserve Accounting (that was changed after 2008 when oil companies went broke)
All Oil is the same (don't look inside the barrel to see the shale horse piss worth $0.05)
Bullshit productivity "Improvements"(change the narrative)
Thinking that drilling millions of wells is an Oil Industry when its manufacturing.

All total bullshit

Show me a Prudhoe Bay, he cannot do it.
Total Collapse is Imminent
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 22:19:38

Sounds like they found a Prudoe Bay:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/poli ... w-oil-find


[b]The U.S. Geological Survey announced Thursday that it discovered one the largest new sources of oil and natural gas under Texas and New Mexico.

"Christmas came a few weeks early this year," Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke said as he unveiled the new find. "American strength flows from American energy, and as it turns out, we have a lot of American energy."

Zinke said the new assessment makes him even more bullish that "American energy dominance is within our grasp as a nation."


The new shale oil and gas formation known as Wolfcamp, which is adjacent to the oil-rich Permian region in Texas, contains an estimated mean of 46.3 billion barrels of oil, 281 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and 20 billion barrels of natural gas liquids, according to the U.S. Geological Survey.

"The results of this most recent assessment and that of the Wolfcamp Formation in the Midland Basin in 2016 are our largest continuous oil and gas assessments ever released,” said Dr. Jim Reilly, director of the U.S. Geological Survey. “Knowing where these resources are located and how much exists is crucial to ensuring both our energy independence and energy dominance.”

The oil and natural gas estimates are based on what can be produced using the technique known as hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, that has made the U.S. the largest energy producer in the world in under a decade
[/b]
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 22:40:42

Well that is great discovery but
World currently consumes around 100 million barrels per day and BP estimates that number will go up by another 10% before levelling off.

So lets see simple math, 46.3 billion barrels of oil so:
100 Million ×10= 1 billion × 46= 460 days
So in a little over 1 year that amount will be consumed
NOT Comforting 8O

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-43138948
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Re: Is EROEI Important Pt. 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 23:18:22

So in a little over 1 year that amount will be consumed
NOT Comforting 8O


If you want to look at these things as the glass is almost empty rather than half full I suppose. The issue is that one field or one discovery is not expected to support the consumption of the entire world.

The best way to look at this is through reserve life indices. BP does this each year on a regional basis:

Image

And the thing to remember this is just Proven Reserves, it does not account for the movement of Probable to Proven or Possible to Probable and then Proven. There is a considerable amount of discovered reserves beyond this. So the 30 years or so for the US considers only Proven reserves, and much of the shale accumulation is not held in Proven category as of yet given additional drilling and testing is required.
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