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THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: RES closes Carthage plant

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 06 Mar 2009, 15:07:50

highlander wrote:
pstarr wrote:No one is gong to pay us for our waste. Kids don't expect a gold star for picking up their dirty clothes and putting them in the hamper. Why should we?


You are quite mistaken. Yellow grease (mostly from fryers) is a valuable commodity. I pay my suppliers to protect my source of raw material for my biodiesel. Brown grease (grease trap, offal, etc) is also a valuable commodity.

We have had the "biofool" discussion before. You can keep on insulting me and I'll keep motoring with other folks waste.
Have you ever heard the expression that "the solution to pollution is dilution?" Tony Soprano doesn't care what color the grease is. Even red will do. :twisted: How much of your grease was needed by the soap or related industries? Won't they have to get it somewhere else?

Highlander it's great that you may have diverted some grease from the landfills (into the air?) and employed yourself and others. But at what cost in additional energy? You need to bone up on net-energy analysis. How can we hope to replace failing oil supplies with a material that is the consequence of the oil supply. There nothing about your original feedstock (fossil-fuel farmed soybeans) or your reprocessing that does not depend wholly on fossil fuels.
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Thermal Depolymerisation and Free Electricity For All

Unread postby Brendonmcm » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 08:08:10

I've been browsing the Internet recently and came across some interesting articles regarding the above. Incidentally, I'm no "expert", so the following observations are simply my own thoughts, but could mean lower energy costs and reduced CO2 emissions, world-wide!

The first articles refer to Thermal Depolymerisation (TDP), the Thermal Conversion Process (TCP) and Pyrolysis Reforming. These processes recycle almost all waste materials ,including rubber and plastics, to reproduce renewable fuels, thereby minimising the environmental effects from the combustion of waste or the need for landfill sites.

The second article regarded Nikola Tesla, who was regarded as the father of modern day electricity. He invented, among many things, a generator, capable of producing electricity from "thin air", which, because of its portability, could be set up anywhere in the world and generate free electricity for all consumers. The process would mean the near 3 billion people on the planet, who currently do not have electricity, would, for the first time, have access to electricity

I know that there are companies already involved in TDP, I'm also aware that there are companies selling plans for Tesla Generators, but ideally everyone should have access to this free electricity in their own homes, offices, factories, schools, libraries, hospitals, etc., where electricity could be used, for little or no cost! There would be little or no need for nuclear energy, gas, coal, diesel, petrol or oil, or the harmful emissions they create. Furthermore, I'm led to believe that the planet will run out of fossil fuels in the next twenty or so years, so we need to look for alternative, affordable, long term solutions now.

IF we produce free electricity without using fossil fuels, would the knock on effects result in tumbling prices and lower inflation? Would it help to create world-wide employment opportunities? Would it help end the current financial recession, which, I'm led to believe, is caused by high fuel prices? Having said that, if we continue extracting the remaining fossil fuels from the earth, the surplus fuel produced could still be exported to other countries, that hadn't yet converted to "Tesla Power". However, that point is academic as fossil fuels will eventually run out.

I wonder if the world's Governments have looked at either of the above processes, or considered the massive ecological and financial benefits that could be made to our country and the world, were these processes implemented globally! As I said earlier,I'm no "expert", but I'm sure these systems or processes could be implemented for the benefit of all mankind. I realise all of these changes will not take place overnight, but I'd like to see the World's Governments promoting cleaner, cheaper, safer, renewable energy and a safer environment.You can read more by searching for Nikola Tesla, the Tesla Generator, Thermal Depolymerisation, the Thermal Conversion Process and Pyrolysis Reforming on any internet search engine.
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Re: Thermal Depolymerisation and Free Electricity For All

Unread postby Cloud9 » Fri 18 Mar 2011, 17:08:35

Show me somebody that has it up and running and I am game. I would be the first to say that our ancestors were every bit as smart as we are.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 17 Dec 2013, 10:29:56

GUELPH—The city is taking a hard look at utilizing advanced waste-to-energy—or energy-from-waste—technologies as part of its future waste management strategy.

What those technologies and facilities might look like is not yet known, but a survey of residents conducted in September found a strong majority of respondents favour the approach as a way to divert waste that can not be recycled or composted away from landfill sites.

Rather than getting specific about what types of waste-to-energy technologies might be considered, the survey used the general waste-to-energy term. There are a number of these technologies in use around the world, including gasification, depolymerization, and pyrolysis—all carried out within sophisticated facilities with highly advanced contaminant collection systems.

While many of these processes use intense heat to break down garbage, such as plastic bottles, medical waste, or automotive tires, into useable energy, the thermal treatment they use goes far beyond what we think of as incineration, a University of Guelph expert in solid waste management said.

"When you say incineration people get really worried that we are going to have dioxins and furans," said Brajesh Dubey, a professor in the U of G's school of engineering. "Nowadays, our air pollution control system has improved so much that it is not that much of a problem. We are capturing it all within the plant itself."

Heather Connell is Guelph's manager of integrated services in solid waste resources. She explained the city is looking at alternatives to sending waste to landfill sites. Material that is not compostable or recyclable generally ends up in landfill, but waste-to-energy technology can keep much of that waste out of landfills and put it to good use generating electricity or other forms of renewable energy.

http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-story ... to-energy/

More at the link, looks like TDP isn't quite as dead as some people thought.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 13 Mar 2015, 13:35:39

This came out last week, it sounds like someone is finally making money off of the Thermo Depolymerization process.

Pyrolyx AG, a Munich, Germany-based company involved in the recovery of carbon black from scrap tires, has announced a partnership with Colorado-based CH2E Group. CH2E Group owns what it calls the largest tire landfill in the United States with a volume of roughly 600,000 tons.

Under the letter of intent signed Feb. 18, 2015, Pyrolyx says it will start by erecting a production plant on CH2E’s site in Hudson, Colorado. CH2E will provide shredded scrap tires and the land required to build the plant.

CH2E’s proposed Colorado facility uses tires as its primary source of raw material. CH2E’s thermal depolymerization system has been designed to convert waste tires into diesel fuel, activated carbon and steel. The company says its activated carbon has been formulated to be used in carbon injection systems or where there is a need for stringent flue emission controls.

Commissioning for the Pyrolyx project is scheduled for 2016, after which Pyrolyx, together with CH2E, will have the right to build further production lines for the recovery of carbon black from end-of-life tires. Pyrolyx claims that by today's standards this will be the world's largest plant for the production of recovered carbon black.

Pyrolyx has developed a patented process in which carbon black is obtained from scrap tires in what it calls a sustainable closed recycling loop. The carbon black can then be used to manufacture new tires.

“By partnering with the CH2E Group, we have now taken the strategically important step of entering the U.S. market, the second-largest in the world,” says Niels Raeder, CEO of Pyrolyx. “With Pyrolyx carbon black now having been successfully tested by the tire industry, we'll be able to produce a significant amount of recovered carbon black in the U.S. when the plant is complete. This will make a significant contribution to reducing the world's scrap tires.”
http://www.recyclingtoday.com/pyrolyx-ch2e-tire-recycling-colorado.aspx
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 03 Feb 2017, 14:23:33

Researchers Find Way To Convert Sewage Into Biofuel
Washington: It may sound like science fiction, but wastewater treatment plants may turn ordinary sewage into biocrude oil, thanks to this new research that took place at the US Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL).

“There is plenty of carbon in municipal waste water sludge and interestingly, there are also fats,” says Corinne Drennan, who is responsible for bioenergy technologies research at PNNL, at Richland, in Washington.

“The fats or lipids appear to facilitate the conversion of other materials in the wastewater such as toilet paper, keep the sludge moving through the reactor, and produce a very high quality biocrude that, when refined, yields fuels such as gasoline, diesel and jet fuels,” Drennan noted in an official statement.

Can Fuel Created From Sewage Be The Future

The technology is called hydrothermal liquefaction and mimics the geological conditions Earth uses to create crude oil.

Quick Fact: Hydrothermal liquefaction (HTL) is a thermal depolymerization process used to convert wet biomass into crude-like oil which is also referred as bio-oil or biocrude.

This process uses high pressure and temperature to create biocrude oil to within a few minutes. To put this in perspective, the same process would take millions of years to yield this naturally. The biocrude obtained is similar to petroleum pumped out of the ground, with a small amount of water and oxygen mixed in. This biocrude can then be refined using conventional petroleum refining operations. – Researchers Of US Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
With this technology, a single person could generate two to three gallons of biocrude per year, according to an estimate by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory.

Sewage, or more specifically sewage sludge, has long been viewed as a poor ingredient for producing biofuel because it’s too wet.

The approach being studied by PNNL eliminates the need for drying required in a majority of current thermal technologies which historically has made wastewater to fuel conversion too energy intensive and expensive.

Hydrothermal liquefaction may also be used to make fuel from other types of wet organic feedstock, such as agricultural waste, according to the researchers.

Using hydrothermal liquefaction, organic matter such as human waste can be broken down to simpler chemical compounds.

The material is pressurised to 3,000 pounds per square inch – nearly one hundred times that of a car tire. Pressurized sludge then goes into a reactor system operating at about 660 degrees Fahrenheit.

The heat and pressure cause the cells of the waste material to break down into different fractions -biocrude and an aqueous liquid phase, the researchers explained.

In addition to producing useful fuel, the technology could give local governments significant cost savings by virtually eliminating the need for sewage residuals processing, transport and disposal.


http://swachhindia.ndtv.com/can-fuel-cr ... ture-3707/
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 03 Feb 2017, 15:12:56

Sub - OK: so how much does it cost to make a gallon of diesel using this tech?
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby baha » Fri 03 Feb 2017, 16:00:56

I love it!! Now I can just shit 3 gallons of oil each year :)
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 03 Feb 2017, 20:24:19

Rockman: I think you have to know how the local fat consumption profile to estimate diesel yield.

The true shame of this is that the mix of feedstock methane, so useful to create the process heat at the depolymerization plant, is wastefully discarded at each individual "well head" in the supply community and not able to be captured as well. This methane is not burned off for safety reasons and is instead just vented to the atmosphere. Claims of burn off, and isolated examples have taken place, but were novel experiments and under conditions that did not represent the normal operating conditions of said feedstock supply apparatus whatsoever.

I do know the process is viable and works. I just can't see the energy budget scaling up in any major
viable way.

Hydrothermal areas are scarce and sewage treatment is widely dispersed. And 3,000 PSI is a lot of embedded energy as well in addition to process heat. The cost of thermal depolymerization would replace the cost of sewage treatment in this scenario for a community and only if it was cheaper would it save them money.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 06:53:06

New portable Japanese machine converts plastic back into crude via dry thermal deplolymerization.

https://youtu.be/Qgd0F0cp4kw
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 12:43:15

Oregon-based Agilyx Corp. has secured a financing option for its pyrolysis facility near Portland. The conversion facility can process up to 10 tons of polystyrene scrap per day using the patented thermal pyrolysis technology and will convert the scrap into liquid styrene monomer, which can be sold to refiners for the production of oil. The company, along with other giants such as Dow Chemical, has been a part of Hefty Energy Bag program that converted enormous plastic debris into high-value synthetic crude oil. This oil was further refined and could be used to manufacture fuel and various petroleum products, including gasoline, jet fuel, diesel fuel, and lubricants. The crude oil could also be transformed back into plastic. These developments reiterated the commercial viability of recycled plastic and plastic waste to oil technologies.


LINK
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:09:48

That good, I think.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:19:32

Newfie wrote:That good, I think.


Ten tons a day? Not sure which "ton" they are using, but that's around a whopping 69 barrels of oil equivalent, or maybe there are some conversion gains. Hopefully they are getting more than $51/barrel for the stuff.

Looks like a loser on paper.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:24:16

Tanada, glance up at this page and then reflect on the ageless failure of your hopeful calls upon this net-energy scam. The Carthage closing is a decade old. It was to be the poster child for commercial New Age Energy. TDP was always a green scam. From 2004;
b. The company's own website says that the process inputs 126 mmbtu/hr of energy, and only gets out 107 mmbtu/hr out the other side. It's kind of an interesting trick . . .

http://www.changingworldtech.com/pdf/Ge ... 3_3_04.pdf

Why associate yourself with hopeless BS? You are an unusually smart guy/gal who wouldn't under normal earthly circumstances fall for such malarkey. Why here and now?
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:47:39

Even if it's not a net energy source it could be a useful way of disposing of plastic waste that doesn't involve it ending up in the ocean.

Of course, the Japanese already just incinerate their plastic waste. Which is about as good as you can get.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 13:59:27

diemos wrote:Even if it's not a net energy source it could be a useful way of disposing of plastic waste that doesn't involve it ending up in the ocean.

Of course, the Japanese already just incinerate their plastic waste. Which is about as good as you can get.

The US has been burning plastic waste as a power plant feedstock for decades. Longer.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 23 Nov 2018, 14:56:17

Tanada wrote:This came out last week, it sounds like someone is finally making money off of the Thermo Depolymerization process.

Pyrolyx AG, a Munich, Germany-based company involved in the recovery of carbon black from scrap tires, has announced a partnership with Colorado-based CH2E Group. CH2E Group owns what it calls the largest tire landfill in the United States with a volume of roughly 600,000 tons.

Under the letter of intent signed Feb. 18, 2015, Pyrolyx says it will start by erecting a production plant on CH2E’s site in Hudson, Colorado. CH2E will provide shredded scrap tires and the land required to build the plant.

CH2E’s proposed Colorado facility uses tires as its primary source of raw material. CH2E’s thermal depolymerization system has been designed to convert waste tires into diesel fuel, activated carbon and steel. The company says its activated carbon has been formulated to be used in carbon injection systems or where there is a need for stringent flue emission controls.

Commissioning for the Pyrolyx project is scheduled for 2016, after which Pyrolyx, together with CH2E, will have the right to build further production lines for the recovery of carbon black from end-of-life tires. Pyrolyx claims that by today's standards this will be the world's largest plant for the production of recovered carbon black.

Pyrolyx has developed a patented process in which carbon black is obtained from scrap tires in what it calls a sustainable closed recycling loop. The carbon black can then be used to manufacture new tires.

“By partnering with the CH2E Group, we have now taken the strategically important step of entering the U.S. market, the second-largest in the world,” says Niels Raeder, CEO of Pyrolyx. “With Pyrolyx carbon black now having been successfully tested by the tire industry, we'll be able to produce a significant amount of recovered carbon black in the U.S. when the plant is complete. This will make a significant contribution to reducing the world's scrap tires.”
http://www.recyclingtoday.com/pyrolyx-ch2e-tire-recycling-colorado.aspx

A bit of follow up would have revealed this from two years ago;

Reklaim's (previously Pyrolyx) idled Oregon recycling plant to be auctioned
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Zarquon » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 09:56:13

Plastic to diesel fuel: that's basically a DIY technology, as long as you can get pure PE or similar as a feedstock. 100kg plastics yield ~95l in fuel and some black carbon. This thread contains the details, and enough pictures to convince me that it's real. The guy claims it takes about 8 cents of electricity per liter, that's where I smelled a rat at first. Unfortunately he doesn't mention until later in the tread that he built this in Indonesia in 2010, where the economics worked out...

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable ... eaply.html

But a little googling will turn up companies selling you a complete, large installation that can produce thousands of liters per day.

P.S.: I do not recommend building a plastics pyrolysis device at home, like this guy did. License and safety issues alone could probably land you in prison. But the comments and questions of the people responding to the post are... priceless. "Great idea! Can I use a steam cooker instead?"
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Zarquon » Thu 06 Dec 2018, 22:49:24

I've read some more in this old 2010 thread I mentioned above and I don't know what kind of forum this really is, but it's amazing. First, the amount of interest this post about how to refine your own fuel from garbage got. 146 pages, last post from this year. One guy responds who claims he's been driving for over a year now with homemade fuel from plastics.

Second, the almost total ignorance of some people. The more you read, the more you want to tear your hair out:

"Can I use a pressure cooker?"
"Can I use an old electric stove?"
"Have you tried shredded CDs/DVDs?"
"Thanks! I'm thinking about starting a business making and selling this fuel. Can somebody here advise me on the legal stuff? There might be some issues, but I don't know."
"If you use PVC, any way (not necessarily EPA-approved) to somehow vent chlorine gases?"
"The recycling firm asked £400 for a ton of shredded PE. That's how corporate interests try to prevent us from making our own fuel! Conspiracy!"
"Hey, I need some questions to be answered regarding plastic conversion back to biofuel, mind helping?"
"My first batch did not heat well. The tank I used was a 25 gallon air compressor tank and with only a few inches of barrel to insulate it; it was not enough. I was using sand and fiberglass and a simple propane weed torch for the heat."
"I used to do a little work at a plastics recycling plant, in the UK, that made plastic garbage cans. His whole plant ran off fuel he made but he never told me how he did it."
"What if I filled the reactor with the wood shavings and then filled the rest with used motor oil, would I then be able to make this work?"
"Has anyone done anything with ABS plastics (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (number 7 on the resins identification scale)? It may be off topic here but has anyone attempted a similar thermal de-polymerization process with waste motor oil/transmission oil."
"The fuel oil goes into my furnace usually mixed with used motor oil or vegetable oil that i get for free and the same into my Listeroid 16/1 diesel engine running a 12kw china st gen head making about 10Kw."
"Hi to all, This is what I am doing. It is in principal the same as with the plastic, but I am using waste motor oil. No temperature control, insulation or any safety devices! Do not inhale the fumes if you want to try this!"
"I dit somme testing with eps isomo,disolve in aceton is fast but 3€ for 1 liter. So I dit a test with 200° hot cookingoil(wvo)and it disolv fast like aceton. I will do some more testing with old plastic flowerpots nobody wants."
"These are just my thoughts and when I get back home on the 15th I will get to work on it and let you know if it worked or not and if I don't right back that means things went horribly wrong and I am to embarrassed to admit my mistake or it went kaboom and I no longer have to worry about energy."
"Would it address this if i 'bubbled' the exhaust from such a burning through something, to capture the dioxin.If so, then what do I do with it?"
"scares the living be#@$& of every one and doesn't follow up with his assumptions about Dioxins escaping into the atmosphere...if you are out there come in with some scientific proof and set our minds at rest...could be a sitin from the petro company's scarring us ..."
"An addon project would be to try putting together an engine which could utilise this unadulterated fuel to its full potential. An engine that could do 200 miles to the gallon (be it US gallons (≈ 3.79 L) or UK ones (4.55 L)), would really make the container store go a long way."
"Do you think you could just pour concrete in around the chamber as an insulator?"

FREE FUEL! LIKE, FOR FREE! FREE! Then all higher brain functions lock up. I'm only on page 6 now, and that's the first time somebody there mentions dioxin and that it's probably not too good for your health. Or other people's health. Not that many people responded to that, with FREE FUEL on their mind. Apart from the idea of total amateurs handling gasoline fumes heated to 400°C while burning off the propane...

Makes me wonder how many people are already doing this.

P.S: Apparently, the OP did this in Latvia, not Indonesia.

P.P.S: A picogram of dioxin is considered a dangerous amount of carcinogens. By burning this fuel in your car or furnace you don't destroy it, you just spread it around the neighborhood in a very fine mist. But you know there's no risk because the guy from the garbage company told you the plastic he sold you is clean.
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Re: THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 08 Dec 2018, 05:36:11

Do you have stats on how bad dioxins actually are? I have a brother in law who was exposed to dioxin laden agent orange during his service in vietnam. Hes not the healthies 70 year old around, but it hasn't killed him yet either.
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