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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 05 Nov 2018, 22:33:58

KaiserJeep wrote:Baha, don't forget the basics.

A charging station that recharges from the (78% FF-powered) grid is simply moving pollution from a car exhaust to a FF power plant.

Using actual data instead of intuition, for the US, BEV's are generally produce less CO2 vs. ICE vehicles over their useful life by a LOT. An exception is WV, where they use almost all coal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 07:59:18

baha wrote:You're right KJ, this is a compromise.

But I'm not blind...I'm focused. I have to take this one step at a time.


That is exactly how humans will move through the ecological bottleneck of overshoot. One step at a time. That is also exactly why it is foolish to be constantly stressed out over the impossibility of resolving our dilemma. It resolves itself through the slow grinding process of one step at a time.

Obsessing over human overshoot leads to paralysis.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 12:44:27

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:Baha, don't forget the basics.

A charging station that recharges from the (78% FF-powered) grid is simply moving pollution from a car exhaust to a FF power plant.

Using actual data instead of intuition, for the US, BEV's are generally produce less CO2 vs. ICE vehicles over their useful life by a LOT. An exception is WV, where they use almost all coal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM


OS, let me take a wild guess that you live in an urban area. Because the problem is that the (totally defective) argument in the above video was made by an urban dweller and not a realist. That you found his argument credible is why I am guessing that you also live in a city.

First of all, throughout this entire video, he used the word "car". A car is DEFINATELY NOT the typical road vehicle, in fact the most popular vehicle in the USA is the Ford F-150 medium-sized pickup truck, and the extended cab, 2-bench-seat models of this vehicle are quite numerous as well. The second and third and fourth most popular vehicles are also pickup trucks from GM, Dodge, and Toyota, and again large multiple seat versions are popular. Then we begin with the SUVs. As a matter of fact, only one single "car" exists within the "Top Ten" most popular vehicles, and that is the Toyota Camry, classed as an intermediate sedan. Small cars and BEVs are WAY DOWN that popularity list, which any resident of the country or even the suburbs would understand.

Which is why I was carefull to use the words "a simple small fuel-efficient car" when I described the vehicle that was less harmful to the environment than the typical BEV. I was careful to make apples-to-apples comparisons, which the above analysis was not. His figures included weighted fuel consumption averages for pickup trucks, SUVs, minivans, and large/intermediate/small cars, plus Hybrids (which far outnumber BEVs). We won't even talk about the RVs and the 6.8-liter diesel tow vehicles for boats and trailers and other toys, which also get used for commuting to work.

Things are never so simple when one discusses averages, either. I have said before that about 80-90% of all the BEVs are in California, which is true, and that this state also produces far more green energy for our power grid than the nearest competitor, which is completely true. But it's also true that all four of the (probably illegal) Latinos who are landscaping my home are driving large contractor-style diesel pickup trucks, almost new and probably not paid for yet, and I'm sure I don't want to know whether or not they have legal registrations or insurance in this "sanctuary" state/county/city, as it would only depress me. Multiply the four of them by another four million, and you begin to see the problem with all the statistics we are throwing at one another.

Thats the great thing about numbers and the Internet. You can find useless numerical support of any argument you want to make. In fact, if everybody were driving EITHER the BEVs you favor or the "a simple small fuel-efficient car" I was comparing those BEVs to, we would be a lot better off than we are. Because niether of those vehicles are typical of what one actually finds on the roads today.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 19:29:32

Based on the price of the Tesla Model S sporty sedan ($130,000), the Tesla camper if it ever ships will cost over $1M. Just like the average Model 3 is $80K, when he said he was gonna make a $30K affordable car.

I have several times seen electric semi truck prototypes here in Silly Valley. None are in production yet, and it's the same chicken/egg sort of problem as with the BEVs and chargers. The larger vehicles are intended to swap batteries versus recharge, and the infrastructure has to exist before anybody will buy them.

I weary of pointing this out, but here I go again. To replace ICE vehicles requires more than good vehicle design. Tesla HAS good vehicle design. You also need a complete manufacturing design for your vehicle (Tesla's is marginal at best), the charge or battery swap infrastructure, really really cheap high quality batteries, and lastly you need to overcome the huge marketing resistance to BEVs that the public has.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 13:09:39

baha wrote:The take away I got from that video is EVs are more environmentally friendly than ICEs. End of story...EV Trucks will be that much better than ICE trucks.

Agreed. KJ seems to be distracted by squirrels or something again, per is response to this video.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 03 Dec 2018, 20:02:16

Trump considers ending the Federal tax credit for people purchasing EVs.

trump-looking-beyond-gm-seeks-to-end-all-electric-car-tax-credits-

Trump is considering the fact that Tesla sells too many cars now to keep the full credit, GM has stopped production of the Volt, and the Ford EV is a farce with next to no sales. This tax credit may wind up being a subsidy to Foreign EV builders, since US auto manufacturers are pulling back.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about the tax credit. It sounds like a good idea, but in practice it subsidizes rich people to buy expensive sports cars. I'd much rather see federal money go into high speed rail or trams for mass transit then for subsides for individual rich people to buy overpriced EVs.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 03 Dec 2018, 20:04:31

baha wrote:
I would look cool pulling into the campground in this.

tesla camper.jpeg


Not really.

The car would look cool but you'd look exactly the same.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 09:14:16

Plantagenet wrote:Trump is considering the fact that...


How convenient. Trump is really considering the fact that he is anti-green.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Cog » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 09:30:21

There is no current evidence that we are at global peak oil production. When that happens and the price increase of oil makes EV's more desirable, then that transition can occur. For the majority of the planet, price matters.

By the way the "Green" French president Macron just suspended his tax increase on diesel fuels. I guess he didn't care for the riots that ensued.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 11:00:01

The foundation behind the transition is already being laid into place whether doomers want to recognize it or not. The situation is quite different from what it was back in the Who Killed the Electric Car days. Even if the automakers need to rush EVs to market in an oil crisis situation I think they will be able to do that, and the longer the status quo continues, the more prepared they will be.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt .9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:21:09

Cog wrote:By the way the "Green" French president Macron just suspended his tax increase on diesel fuels. I guess he didn't care for the riots that ensued.

I had been seeing news about the riots. I was curious about the size of the fuel tax increase.

The first article I saw from a credible source (Reuters) shows that it's not just the fuel tax that has people outside the cities angry. It looks like he also scrapped a wealth tax and increased a social welfare tax. So all three of these things are likely to anger the (self-perceived) have-nots against the haves.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1NY248

The Guardian says the proposed fuel tax increase was for 4 euro cents more a litre starting in Jan. Elsewhere I saw a mention of other increases planned over time. Apparently France's fuel taxes are roughly 60% already, which is roughly in the middle of the range for Western Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... or-thought

...

It seems to me that if they want to get an indication of how much just gradually raising the diesel tax upsets people, they need to JUST GRADUALLY raise the diesel tax, instead of doing multiple things at the same time, which will all obviously anger a lot of voters.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:33:41

Fuel taxes, all governments are doing it wrong, screwing the motorists is not the right way to do it.
What they should be doing is to have a high tax on those cars when they're bought new, actively discourage people from buying the gas guzzlers in the first place. Once a car is several years old, it's the lower income second/third hand owners who struggle to to pay for the fuel.

This proposed tax rise comes not long after another such rise that has already angered to population, other government actions could spark a complete overthrow of the government if they don't back down.

France has just experienced a near general strike, similar to one that happened in the UK about 15 years ago, after which the government left fuel taxes alone.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:51:03

dolanbaker wrote:Fuel taxes, all governments are doing it wrong, screwing the motorists is not the right way to do it.
What they should be doing is to have a high tax on those cars when they're bought new, actively discourage people from buying the gas guzzlers in the first place. Once a car is several years old, it's the lower income second/third hand owners who struggle to to pay for the fuel.

This proposed tax rise comes not long after another such rise that has already angered to population, other government actions could spark a complete overthrow of the government if they don't back down.

France has just experienced a near general strike, similar to one that happened in the UK about 15 years ago, after which the government left fuel taxes alone.

I respectfully submit that you're half right. Having a large gas guzzler tax on new vehicles that aren't efficient (and a smaller such tax on middling vehicles) would be a great incentive for people purchasing more fuel efficient vehicles.

However, having NO meaningful CO2 tax on fossile transport fuels means that people don't pay any consequence for driving gas guzzlers once they're used.

For example, that means anyone (wealthy or not) who wants to drive a giant truck or SUV, etc. could just buy a good 3 year old used car with low miles, and drive it lots until it wears out -- paying NO CO2 taxes on that fuel. (And such cars today are often better than a new car was a decade or two ago, so aside from preeners, buying such cars isn't giving up much).
That is exactly the opposite of a policy to incent people not to drive such vehicles, and drive them a lot.

If middle class people and below are struggling to pay for fuel, that should be all the more incentive for them to drive a very efficient vehicle, or take public transport, bike, walk, etc.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 12:28:28

Congrats on your new Model 3. Sounds like a wonderful car.

Apparently the average Model 3 buyer is paying ca. $60,000 for the car, Elon Musk's promise to bring the Model 3 to market for a price of ca. $35,000 notwithstanding.

tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find

There is some concern that TESLA and its high priced cars will have big problems in the coming recession, but with loyal supporters like yourself I'm sure they'll come out OK.

Again, CONGRATULATIONS!
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 13:38:45

I take it you qualified for the full Federal tax rebate by taking delivery in 2018 of a 2019 model?

I like the color. My first Jeep Wrangler, a 1997 4-cylinder model that I gave to my kid when she graduated, was very similar, Chrysler called it "Patriot Blue".
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 23:18:44

Congrats on your Model 3 Baha. I hope the car works out great for you.

As a Tesla watcher, I wonder what the service experience will be like for those who aren't in blue states.

I see there are three Tesla service centers in NC, at least according to this Tesla page. Two in Raleigh, and one in Charlotte.

https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/servi ... d%20States

I just wondered whether you plan on using the mobile service (and if it is available in NC), a NC service center, or do it yourself, since you have expertise on electric batteries, etc.

...

I'm looking forward to a variety of BEV offerings from various mainstream car companies in the next several years. Lots of consumer choice would seem like the best thing to ensure one can get good service, at least to me.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 23:24:12

baha wrote:We used a Supercharger today just for fun. It charged at 130 mph. I have read that when the battery is low it can charge at 380 mph at the newest chargers. That is a full charge in less than hour. Just enough time for PIzza :)

I've read about battery issues with fast charging. And Tesla slowing down the fastest allowable charge rate for Model S users who use lots of fast charging (at superchargers), to preserve the battery life.

I don't know if the newer batter chemistries will alleviate that for very fast charging rates or not.

Probably not an issue if you do mostly home charging -- I'm just thinking people shouldn't just assume they can charge willy-nilly at the fastest supercharging speed they can find all the time, unless they're sure their battery can handle it.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Dec 2018, 00:35:22

I don't begrudge anyone from buying a Model 3 but the value proposition still isn't there, even with the new "medium range" model they cooked up to keep punting the standard-range into the future. It's still a high-end car. Also, the quality control and reliability on Teslas is a chronic issue which fanbois keep saying is getting better but really isn't anywhere near where it should be for cars in this pricerange. So expect the excitement bubble to deflate as you begin to grapple with issues.

I really think the Hyundai Kona and Kia e-Niro are the smart buys if you can get them, and if VW follows through with ID line, I see them sweeping the floor with Tesla due to their greater manufacturing capability and dealer network.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Dec 2018, 10:53:44

"I am proud to drive a car built by my neighbors. Maybe you'd like to move to Korea"

I don't believe in judging products on a sliding scale purely due to country of origin.

I also feel that now that you're (study your vs. you're btw) a Tesla owner that you have a vested interest in defending your decision and avoiding the humiliation of buyer's remorse. All you have to do is peruse the Tesla forums to see that phenomenon on display where people report things like rear windshields splitting in half or complete drive unit failures (sometimes on the way home from the delivery center) and still at the end of it proclaim their loyalty. They seem to be gluttons for punishment.

No amount of patriotism will compel me to tolerate that sort of BS.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Mon 24 Dec 2018, 13:20:35

Everything That's Wrong With My Tesla Model 3 - Quality Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSLTNjGI8hw

I Bought A Tesla Model 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfIjMxyg00o
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