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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 11:00:01

The foundation behind the transition is already being laid into place whether doomers want to recognize it or not. The situation is quite different from what it was back in the Who Killed the Electric Car days. Even if the automakers need to rush EVs to market in an oil crisis situation I think they will be able to do that, and the longer the status quo continues, the more prepared they will be.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt .9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:21:09

Cog wrote:By the way the "Green" French president Macron just suspended his tax increase on diesel fuels. I guess he didn't care for the riots that ensued.

I had been seeing news about the riots. I was curious about the size of the fuel tax increase.

The first article I saw from a credible source (Reuters) shows that it's not just the fuel tax that has people outside the cities angry. It looks like he also scrapped a wealth tax and increased a social welfare tax. So all three of these things are likely to anger the (self-perceived) have-nots against the haves.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-fran ... SKCN1NY248

The Guardian says the proposed fuel tax increase was for 4 euro cents more a litre starting in Jan. Elsewhere I saw a mention of other increases planned over time. Apparently France's fuel taxes are roughly 60% already, which is roughly in the middle of the range for Western Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... or-thought

...

It seems to me that if they want to get an indication of how much just gradually raising the diesel tax upsets people, they need to JUST GRADUALLY raise the diesel tax, instead of doing multiple things at the same time, which will all obviously anger a lot of voters.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dolanbaker » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:33:41

Fuel taxes, all governments are doing it wrong, screwing the motorists is not the right way to do it.
What they should be doing is to have a high tax on those cars when they're bought new, actively discourage people from buying the gas guzzlers in the first place. Once a car is several years old, it's the lower income second/third hand owners who struggle to to pay for the fuel.

This proposed tax rise comes not long after another such rise that has already angered to population, other government actions could spark a complete overthrow of the government if they don't back down.

France has just experienced a near general strike, similar to one that happened in the UK about 15 years ago, after which the government left fuel taxes alone.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 04 Dec 2018, 15:51:03

dolanbaker wrote:Fuel taxes, all governments are doing it wrong, screwing the motorists is not the right way to do it.
What they should be doing is to have a high tax on those cars when they're bought new, actively discourage people from buying the gas guzzlers in the first place. Once a car is several years old, it's the lower income second/third hand owners who struggle to to pay for the fuel.

This proposed tax rise comes not long after another such rise that has already angered to population, other government actions could spark a complete overthrow of the government if they don't back down.

France has just experienced a near general strike, similar to one that happened in the UK about 15 years ago, after which the government left fuel taxes alone.

I respectfully submit that you're half right. Having a large gas guzzler tax on new vehicles that aren't efficient (and a smaller such tax on middling vehicles) would be a great incentive for people purchasing more fuel efficient vehicles.

However, having NO meaningful CO2 tax on fossile transport fuels means that people don't pay any consequence for driving gas guzzlers once they're used.

For example, that means anyone (wealthy or not) who wants to drive a giant truck or SUV, etc. could just buy a good 3 year old used car with low miles, and drive it lots until it wears out -- paying NO CO2 taxes on that fuel. (And such cars today are often better than a new car was a decade or two ago, so aside from preeners, buying such cars isn't giving up much).
That is exactly the opposite of a policy to incent people not to drive such vehicles, and drive them a lot.

If middle class people and below are struggling to pay for fuel, that should be all the more incentive for them to drive a very efficient vehicle, or take public transport, bike, walk, etc.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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EVs are just better!

Unread postby baha » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 10:13:28

This is not some pie in the sky thread about EVs. There are hundreds of pages on this website speculating about EVs and their economic viability. This thread ain't like that. This is just the facts...with a little personal bias thrown in :)

Our new EV was delivered yesterday. They said NC requires people to pick them up at a delivery site and sign paperwork. In some states they deliver to your house. That's OK. I enjoyed seeing their temporary Raleigh facility. There were hundreds of Tesla's waiting to be picked up. They were spilling over into the Sam's club and Target parking lots. The place was buzzing like an anthill. We showed up, did paperwork, and were on our way in an hour.

While I was waiting for delivery I did some research. The new buzz phrase for comparing EV efficiency is kilowatts/100 miles or watts/mile. Did you know that the Model 3 is 24% more energy efficient then a Model S? The Model 3 averages 260 watts/mile. The Model S uses 340. This difference is mostly due to improvements in the battery technology in the last 5 years. The Model 3 can charge faster and deliver power more reliably while getting better watts/mile. Just wait another 5 years :)

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSe ... owLimit=10

Notice the new Jaguar I-pace is next to last on the list at 440 watts/mile. This is what you get when a Legacy car company throws something together based on their current technology. Sorry Dudes...back to the drawing board :)

We got the RWD version of the Model 3. We don't need a Dual Motor, it's harder to cut doughnuts. I originally thought the RWD version was more efficient. But that's not the case. It turns out the dual motor has a bigger motor in the rear for acceleration and handling with a smaller motor in the front for efficient cruising. The AWD version is more efficient. Let's see you do that with an ICE powered vehicle.

And here's something else you will never do...In track mode the car powers into the curves with the oversteer of a RWD vehicle and then at the apex of the curve it engages more FWD to understeer and pull you out of the curve. They are breaking all kinds of track records. And it's all done with software :)

https://insideevs.com/how-tesla-model-3 ... ode-works/

But most folks are all about economics and money.

My 2015 Ford Transit Connect mini-van is cutting edge ICE technology. It has a 1.6 liter, turbo, intercooled, direct injected ICE engine with variable valve timing and a variable oil pump. It's a very efficient ICE vehicle. I get 30 mpg going down the road with a washer and dryer standing up in the back.

But plug in the numbers and turn the crank...and you find that is .03333 gallons/mile or 1219.9 watts/mile. So a cutting edge ICE vehicle uses more than 4 times the energy of an EV.

Not convinced? Let's look at the money.

At $2.50/gallon and 30 mpg it costs me $8.33 to go 100 miles in my van.

Duke power forced me to go on a time of use plan when I installed the solar. During the winter the high rate is 25 cents/kw-hr from 6am to 9am. It's 12.2 cents from 9am to 8pm and then it's 6 cents at night. I have already configured my Powerwall to automatically cover this period. It saves power until morning and starts at 6am. Duke did this to maximize their profits.

So I will charge the car at night for 6 cents/kw-hr. At that rate it will cost $1.56 to go 100 miles. That's for you...my power is free :) I already have over 1200 kw-hrs stored on the grid.

Cog, I don't know what math you use to determine economic viability, but this is the math I use.

I have relocated my eguage to the main panel. I will be monitoring the house, the PV, and the EV charger separately. I will be able to produce graphs that show the charge curve as well as energy used to pre-heat the car. I will give you real data to consider before you buy your next car. Just be patient.

It may be awhile because we got 6 months of free Supercharging. We're gonna hit the road :)

[attachment=0]Our EV.jpg[/attachment]
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 12:28:28

Congrats on your new Model 3. Sounds like a wonderful car.

Apparently the average Model 3 buyer is paying ca. $60,000 for the car, Elon Musk's promise to bring the Model 3 to market for a price of ca. $35,000 notwithstanding.

tesla-model-3-average-selling-price-asp-59300-surveys-find

There is some concern that TESLA and its high priced cars will have big problems in the coming recession, but with loyal supporters like yourself I'm sure they'll come out OK.

Again, CONGRATULATIONS!
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 13:38:45

I take it you qualified for the full Federal tax rebate by taking delivery in 2018 of a 2019 model?

I like the color. My first Jeep Wrangler, a 1997 4-cylinder model that I gave to my kid when she graduated, was very similar, Chrysler called it "Patriot Blue".
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby baha » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 18:24:38

Thanks Plantagenet :)

Elon is maximizing his ROI. Why not sell expensive cars as long as you can? If the sales numbers start going down he will start selling the cheaper model. Seems like a good business plan.

And he plays on the vanity of computer geeks like the big automakers play on car geeks. There was never any thought on our part to pay $5000 for self driving. I like to drive. I'm not a computer or car geek anymore...I'm an energy geek :)

Yes KJ, we got the car in time for the rebate. 33 days from order to delivery. I special ordered my van and it took 3 months. I didn't get to pick the color. I like Race Red :)

The Model 3 has a 32 AC amp built in charger. It will charge at 30 miles per hour at home...7.6 kilowatts. I put a 60 amp circuit on the Tesla home charger just because I could :)

We used a Supercharger today just for fun. It charged at 130 mph. I have read that when the battery is low it can charge at 380 mph at the newest chargers. That is a full charge in less than hour. Just enough time for PIzza :)
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 23:18:44

Congrats on your Model 3 Baha. I hope the car works out great for you.

As a Tesla watcher, I wonder what the service experience will be like for those who aren't in blue states.

I see there are three Tesla service centers in NC, at least according to this Tesla page. Two in Raleigh, and one in Charlotte.

https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/servi ... d%20States

I just wondered whether you plan on using the mobile service (and if it is available in NC), a NC service center, or do it yourself, since you have expertise on electric batteries, etc.

...

I'm looking forward to a variety of BEV offerings from various mainstream car companies in the next several years. Lots of consumer choice would seem like the best thing to ensure one can get good service, at least to me.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 22 Dec 2018, 23:24:12

baha wrote:We used a Supercharger today just for fun. It charged at 130 mph. I have read that when the battery is low it can charge at 380 mph at the newest chargers. That is a full charge in less than hour. Just enough time for PIzza :)

I've read about battery issues with fast charging. And Tesla slowing down the fastest allowable charge rate for Model S users who use lots of fast charging (at superchargers), to preserve the battery life.

I don't know if the newer batter chemistries will alleviate that for very fast charging rates or not.

Probably not an issue if you do mostly home charging -- I'm just thinking people shouldn't just assume they can charge willy-nilly at the fastest supercharging speed they can find all the time, unless they're sure their battery can handle it.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Dec 2018, 00:35:22

I don't begrudge anyone from buying a Model 3 but the value proposition still isn't there, even with the new "medium range" model they cooked up to keep punting the standard-range into the future. It's still a high-end car. Also, the quality control and reliability on Teslas is a chronic issue which fanbois keep saying is getting better but really isn't anywhere near where it should be for cars in this pricerange. So expect the excitement bubble to deflate as you begin to grapple with issues.

I really think the Hyundai Kona and Kia e-Niro are the smart buys if you can get them, and if VW follows through with ID line, I see them sweeping the floor with Tesla due to their greater manufacturing capability and dealer network.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby baha » Sun 23 Dec 2018, 07:06:23

Thanks OS,

NC is not a blue state. The republican congress is gerrymandering and trying to limit the power of the democratic governor as fast as they can. This is the political process we are left with :( Whatever...

I will treat this car just like every car I have ever owned. I don't like other people working on my cars. That's just me. I will let them as long as they pay for it. The warranty is 4 years/50k miles on the car body and 8 years/unlimited miles on the drivetrain, including the battery.

Tesla is different. They are an IT company. The first step is to call Tech Support. They can access your car remotely and run diagnostics. They will either send a service vehicle or send you to a service center. I will not call them for minor body fit and finish issues. I will fix it myself. So far the car is perfect. There are no rattles or squeaks. The body panels are properly aligned. I'll let you know when I have an issue.

I do service work. There are a certain percentage of spoiled americans that think they deserve perfection. They will hound you until everything is perfect. I understand, they have had everything they wanted all their lives and that's what they expect from everything. I'm not like that. I know the world is not perfect. As long as the wheels stay on and I can go visit my sister I'm happy.

I have done this so many times it's natural. By the time the warranty is done the service manuals will be available. I will take up my own maintenance and keep the car as long as it makes me happy. If it's not worth the trouble, I'll take it apart and use the battery in my antique VW :)

People criticize Tesla for slowing their charge rate...I want them to care for my battery. I don't need to know if the battery can 'handle it'. Tesla will take care of that for me. Every time I charge anywhere they know. They keep a record and modify my charge curve accordingly. This is the service I am paying for. Do you think Jaguar is doing that? I don't have time to study my batteries behavior and modify the charge curve...let Tesla do that.

ASG, I appreciate you not begrudging my new car. You enjoy those foreign cars. I am proud to drive a car built by my neighbors. Maybe you'd like to move to Korea. Cog would like that :)

Do keep in mind. Guilt does not come in degrees. You are guilty or your not. It doesn't matter whether you fly around in jet planes or drive an ICE vehicle...your still guilty. :x
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Dec 2018, 10:53:44

"I am proud to drive a car built by my neighbors. Maybe you'd like to move to Korea"

I don't believe in judging products on a sliding scale purely due to country of origin.

I also feel that now that you're (study your vs. you're btw) a Tesla owner that you have a vested interest in defending your decision and avoiding the humiliation of buyer's remorse. All you have to do is peruse the Tesla forums to see that phenomenon on display where people report things like rear windshields splitting in half or complete drive unit failures (sometimes on the way home from the delivery center) and still at the end of it proclaim their loyalty. They seem to be gluttons for punishment.

No amount of patriotism will compel me to tolerate that sort of BS.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby baha » Mon 24 Dec 2018, 05:30:56

Yes, ASG, I know. The import export business is not as straight forward as I would like it to be. My Ford van was built in Valencia Spain. I used to think I was still keeping my money at home but now I know I am just funding the 1% while they take the jobs overseas. This is a pet peeve of mine and I have continuously lost the battle. Please don't take it personally :)

I do have a vested interest in Tesla. I don't want to suffer buyers remorse. I want to smoothly continue down the path I have chosen. But life ain't like that. Sometimes you stub your toe before you start down the path. Shit happens! But I won't give up and neither will Tesla. I do feel some loyalty because they are the only company that is moving in the same direction I am. But my self-worth is not tied up in my car.

You should know that am willing to take my lumps and admit my errors. I will tell you the whole story of my Tesla experience, good and bad. But this is not an auto revue site, it's an energy site. I try to stick to the energy related issues.

But if the damn thing breaks I will tell you :)

We put 500 miles on it this weekend. We went to Wilmington yesterday to eat seafood. When we got there the battery was below 20% and it started charging at a Supercharger at 480 mph. We went 340 miles on that trip and charged for about an hour.

All Model 3's come with 30 days free auto-pilot. I tried it out. It's pretty cool but still has issues. It can be jerky. It slows down and speeds up quickly. It doesn't like a lot of traffic around. It is very mechanical. I can drive much smoother than it. My wife? not so much :( She was really freaking out when it made quick maneuvers. You tell it to change lanes and it starts and then decides there is too much traffic and swerves back. And it will fight with you a little before it lets go. It's ok but not worth $5000.

When I'm old and tired and need a chauffeur I will reconsider :roll:
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Mon 24 Dec 2018, 13:20:35

Everything That's Wrong With My Tesla Model 3 - Quality Problems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSLTNjGI8hw

I Bought A Tesla Model 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfIjMxyg00o
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Dec 2018, 17:55:11

baha wrote:Do keep in mind. Guilt does not come in degrees. You are guilty or your not. It doesn't matter whether you fly around in jet planes or drive an ICE vehicle...your still guilty. :x

With respect, if it didn't matter how much CO2 you produce, then the whole issue re AGW would be a non-issue.

Clearly producing less is better. Clearly we will all produce some, just by living. So I just have to completely disagree with your idea that (re AGW), guilt doesn't come in degrees.

Your vs. you're. Education matters. Lack of education is a big reason science denial (and the many problems stemming from that) is so popular in the US.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby baha » Mon 31 Dec 2018, 08:06:57

Ha ha...Ur both wrong! Gotta keep up with the times, Dudes :)
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby GHung » Mon 31 Dec 2018, 11:50:03

baha wrote:Ha ha...Ur both wrong! Gotta keep up with the times, Dudes :)


Who's "both wrong'? I was wrong to post someone's review of their new Model 3?
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby Pops » Mon 31 Dec 2018, 11:54:51

baha wrote:Ha ha...Ur both wrong! Gotta keep up with the times, Dudes :)

Found the solution to that "your vs you're" problem, kudos.
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Re: EVs are just better!

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 31 Dec 2018, 14:52:02

Pops wrote:
baha wrote:Ha ha...Ur both wrong! Gotta keep up with the times, Dudes :)

Found the solution to that "your vs you're" problem, kudos.
:lol:

I like your thought process and you're correct of course. :)

As for EVs, I'd buy one this year if I had the money, but I will get one sometime in the near future.
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