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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 15:03:58

Washington Post, August 3, 2018; "You might think there are more vegetarians than ever. You’d be wrong."
Five percent of Americans identify as vegetarian, a rate that has remained unchanged since the previous survey in 2012. In 1999, when the survey was first taken, as well as in 2001, 6 percent of Americans identified as vegetarian. Rates of veganism have followed a similar trajectory.

Seems less American are less willing to sacrifice good health and good taste for the vegetarian myth.
SA has peaked. OPEC has peaked. So goes the world.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 16:48:17

"Seems less American are less willing to sacrifice good health and good taste for the vegetarian myth."

Nice double-negative smarty-pants.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 22:57:44

" include animal products in most meals"
!!!!!


Wow, so you have witnessed the preparation of the majority of meals by all East Asians over the last 10,000 years, and can now report accurately about them to us today...very, very impressive!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you basing this WAG on your visits to your local Chinese restaurant? You do know that restaurant food from a particular culture is generally not the best indication of what most people from that culture actually eat on a day-to-day basis, right?

But let's say you are correct. If the vast numbers of poor who have made up the vast majorities of the population managed to get a bit of meat flavoring and scraps in their food, I would still categorize that as 'mostly vegan' i.e. very, very little meat, especially by modern Western standards.

Again, I offer data, you offer supposition and your own self-serving definition of meat. The second definition in Meriam Webster (after the historically earlier one of simply 'food' which presumably does not apply here) is " animal tissue considered especially as food." It is reasonable to assume that this study was using this default definition of meat, but yes, it would have been nice if they spelled that out for the Debbie Doubters around here! :-D

I want to make it clear that one of my points is that you don't have to be a 'pure vegan' to make a huge impact. Mostly eating no meat or dairy, or only having relatively tiny amounts in your diet--as this study shows was the norm for most humans up to about 60 years ago--would probably be a sustainable diet for the planet. (But, yes, yes, that would be much easier the fewer people there were on the planet to feed!)

So I am in spirit agreeing with your point that the goal needn't be 'strict' veganism or even 'strict vegetarianism.' But most people on the planet do have to get back to something much closer to the kind of plant-based diet this study shows was the norm not long ago. Those who have any care for the planet and want to go on eating meat, should be the first in line to cheer on vegans and vegetarians of any stripe, for the more there are of them, the more probable it is that some people would still be able to eat something closer to current levels of meat without spiraling the planet (even further) into chaos.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... al-welfare
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 05:05:29

Dobhoi, just admit it- agriculture is the most destructive thing ever invented . When the topsoil is gone( within 60 years from now) the game is over no matter are you vegan, vegetarian or carnivore.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 08:51:29

Try to stay up to date, Y. The main reason for erosion is plowing, and no-till ag has pretty much taken over.

On the other stuff, it strikes me that people might be getting hung up on terminology. If you want to replace 'vegan' and 'near vegan' with 'plant based' and if that will make you happy, knock yourselves out.

"A plant-based diet is a diet based on foods derived from plants, including vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and fruits, but with few or no animal products."

"As of the early 2000s, it was estimated that four billion people live primarily on a plant-based diet"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant-based_diet

So to rephrase, through most of history and still today, most people in most countries have been living a mostly plant-based diet most of the time.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:27:51

dohboi wrote:"A plant-based diet is a diet based on foods derived from plants, including vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and fruits, but with few or no animal products."

"As of the early 2000s, it was estimated that four billion people live primarily on a plant-based diet"

So to rephrase, through most of history and still today, most people in most countries have been living a mostly plant-based diet most of the time.


How do you define history? Neanderthal Man migrated out of Africa 400,000 ybp and Homo Sapiens Sapiens first appeared in undeniable form at least 120,000 ybp and possible twice that long ago.

Because Earth today is grossly overpopulated in some places and this restricts animal sourced protein in those places doesn't make that situation a historical fact, it makes it an overpopulation anomaly. The last 200 years since we passed a billion human beings is a tiny tiny blip on that 120,000 year existence of our species, not a normal condition. Taking the broader view that it all comes from Agricultural crop growing only gains you back to say 12,000 ybp by being extraordinarily generous with the definition of agriculture and even that most generous standard only gets you to 1% of human existence.

Humans are omnivores and we developed as hunter-gatherer tribes who ate an omnivore diet. You can tell yourself from now unto forever that the world isn't what it is but you will not change the world.

It has been written that with a strict Vegan diet the Earth could house 18 billion humans. Is that your goal then, to double the mass of humanity and add some more on top? Because that goal requires farming every plan-able square meter of land. Personally I would far rather see us around 3 Billion persons eating healthy normal omnivore diets and having lots and lots of land set aside as permanent reserves and parks the former for natural ecosystems and the latter for humans to spend time out in a safer version of nature hiking/camping/hunting/fishing.

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:35:36

Try to stay up to date, Y. The main reason for erosion is plowing, and no-till ag has pretty much taken over.


No till will not save from depletion of the topsoil. Eventually the soil becomes depleted and the game is over.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 13:36:02

No till is applied only to maize corn. Not the rest of modern agriculture.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 14:15:08

pstarr wrote:No till is applied only to maize corn. Not the rest of modern agriculture.


In Ohio where it is applied it is used on Maize, Soybeans and Wheat/Rye at a minimum. Those are the main crops here and not all farmers use no-till as it requires lots of petrochemicals being applied.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Thu 29 Nov 2018, 23:51:09

Tanada Most of the worlds agricultural land is pastures which are usually no till and do not require petrochemical applications. The saying, penny rich and pound poor could apply here.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 12:57:14

Thanks to SH at asif for these facts, links and thoughts:

... The more effective you are at drilling down into the data, the closer you can get to identifying root cause and when you eliminate a root cause, you discover that you can improve multiple problems simultaneously.

This approach can be remarkably simple and clear as the data reveals itself. Fortunately, there is no lack of data that can be used to identify problems and root causes and fashion solutions. Here are some data that serves to reveal a solution.


• 50% of the world's habitable land has been converted to agriculture.
• 33% of agricultural land worldwide is used solely for livestock feed production.
• Agriculture is responsible for a staggering 80 percent of deforestation.
• Worldwide, forests serve as the habitat for over 80 percent of the world’s animals.


http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environme ... struction/

• 60% of land dedicated to agriculture is used for grazing.
• In total, 93% of agricultural land or 47% of all habitable land is dedicated to raising livestock.



http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5304e/x5304e03.htm


• 31% or 9.9 billion acres of the earth's land surface are covered by forest.
4.7 billion acres have been lost since the advent of industrialization.
• 18 million acres of forest are lost worldwide each year
.


http://www.earth-policy.org/indicators/C56/forests_2012


• Our current industrial agricultural model is heavily dependent on fossil fuels.

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2005 ... ndent-oil/


• People in the developing world eat 32 kilograms of meat a year on average.
• People in the industrial world eat 80 kilograms.

• Livestock account for an estimated 18 percent of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions, producing 40 percent of the world’s methane and 65 percent of the world’s nitrous oxide.

• An estimated 11 percent of deaths in men and 16 percent of deaths in women could be prevented if people decreased their red meat consumption to the level of the group that ate the least.


This data, easily accessible on the internet, highlights the health crisis that is meat production and consumption. It also vividly drives home the concept of root cause as meat consumption affects the health of our forests, most species, the overall health of the planet and, finally, human health.

If someone were to approach you today and tell you that you could dramatically impact the existential crisis that is climate change by adopting a few simple practices in your kitchen, what would you say or do?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 15:24:51

Again, you obstinately focus on one topic, ignoring common sense. If we make for healthier diets, or lower impact to the planet diets, we end up packing more people into an already overcrowded environment, one that is already collapsing in many places on the planet purely from human overpopulation. Always and forever more, the problem is too many people and not enough planet. We need to be managing populations lower, not higher.

Advocating and promoting high impact lifestyles is a way to reach global human capacity earlier and therefore do less damage overall, and to hasten the eventual recovery.

Think about it this way: the average meat-eating, liquor-swilling, pot-smoking, etc. American billionaire - such as Donald Trump for example - is better for the planet than your little academic, veggie-consuming, Marxist self.
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