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PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby jawagord » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 09:53:35

Watched some of the new PBS series last night, they analyzed the effects of Hurricane Sandy, some things that caught my attention:

New York gets hit by a super storm every century, Hurricane Sandy was not an anomaly.

New York's 1821 (super) storm surge was higher than storm surge from Sandy, even though Sea levels were 2 feet lower in 1821.

The areas of New York flooded matches up with infill land that has be added to New York since 1640 about 4(?)sq. miles. The flooding was a man made occurrence.

A variety of protective solutions are being planned for New York from large engineering barrier structures to simple solutions like using inflatable bags to barricade tunnels so they don't flood.

https://www.pbs.org/video/sinking-citie ... rk-twghqw/
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 12:07:33

jawagord wrote:New York gets hit by a super storm every century, Hurricane Sandy was not an anomaly.

I remember watching the pundits on CNBC pontificating on how Sandy demonstrates climate change, as the storm was gearing up.

They shouldn't do that, pointing to single weather events, no matter how dramatic they might be. That behavior is no better than, for example, the climate deniers claiming that any warming is mostly due to solar variation, etc. when science clearly shows that is wrong.

I recently researched it a bit and it was discussed on (I think) the global warming thread a few weeks or so ago, and a common timeframe used to measure climate is 30 years, per NASA, NOAA, etc.

But (in case this is what you're implying), just because huge storms appear over the long run in various cities, that doesn't mean AGW isn't occurring. It also doesn't mean sea levels aren't rising, or that the rise isn't accelerating. (And I'm talking overall -- I'm well aware some local areas are sinking and others are rising due to geological processes, such as the rebounding occurring near the Great Lakes since the last ice age).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 12:18:12

Nor was even hurricane Katrina an anomaly in the NOLA area. I have spoken before about living in Metairie, a suburb of NOLA that was flooded the last time a hurricane breached the levees in the 1950s (specifixly, Hurricane Audrey in June 1957). The only difference was that there were strong building codes then, and a much smaller population. You just do not forget watching boats and canoes in the street in front of your house. But if the street is 10' below the home's foundation, the house is undamaged and habitable, along with the stored water and canned food and hurricane lanterns everybody had. Your car won't be moving from the carport for a few days, and you won't have electricity for that long, but it's not a tragedy. We didn't even lose our refrigerated food, because we lived next to the milkman. He got the remnants of yesterday's ice out of his truck, and gave everybody a bucketfull to set in their refrigerator.

Homes were of hurricane-resistant brick construction, perched on poured concrete foundations that were poured around the tops of "piles", which were 40+ foot long creasote-treated poles that resembled telephone poles, driven down to bedrock with a steam-powered "pile driver". Contrast this to homes that started sinking in the ooze the day they were built, and whose wooden frames blew away in the storm. Anybody remember the tale of the three little pigs and the big bad wolf?

So as the freezer contents melted, we ate that, and before we had eaten through the still-chilled-by-the-pail-of-ice refigerator section, the power was back. Most of the canned stuff was never touched, even though it was more than a week before we could shop for food.

Those that ran out of food in a week were regarded as unprepared. Heck, the Mormons were keeping months of food, even then. Medical emergencies were handled by the usual emergency crews, in boats. They were never that busy rescuing people, as nobody needed rescuing.

There WERE areas in NOLA that were underbuilt, but the (largely White and well-off) suburbs were not among the distressed areas during Audrey. But the Metairie area (Jefferson Parish) did quite well, compared to lower-lying areas. Note that the hurricane I am discussing had a 20 foot storm surge, and Katrina is rated at 22 feet and occurred when sea levels were 1' lower than when Katrina struck.

Still, the areas that Audrey destroyed included the Black parishes that were fairly safe until Katrina destroyed them again. The buildings that Katrina destroyed were largely built following Audrey in 1959-1964.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 14:20:43

I forgot to say that I watched the entirety of PBS's "Sinking Cities: New York" and it was worth an hour of time.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 19:50:42

My last job for the company was in aNyc And I had to look at flood plain maps to see which of our sites were vulnerable. From that exercise, which was not comprehensive, I saw that a lot of the cities infrastructure was built in low lying, flood orobe areas. Makes sense, the city gets the dregs of the real estate barrel to work with. Lots of train yards are vulnerable and airports.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby MD » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 08:42:35

drainage, sewage, water supply, subways. all under water if the power goes out for any length of time. I wouldn't live there without a safe and fast exit plan.

I wouldn't live there, period.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 10:55:27

Add busses, trains, airports.

The most sure way out is by boat.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 11:00:48

During WWII they were worried the Hermans would blow up the Pennsylvania RR tunnels into Penn Station. So they installsed flood gates and plugged all the conduits in the tunnels.

Early in my career we had to pull additional cables and those plugs were a serious problem. And the flood gates had been made inoperative.

Later in my career we had a task to look at removing the flood gates.

Still later a friend of mine was tasked with replacing them.

Inflating big bags won’t work, you have to seal off all the interview, the tunnels have a lot of junk on the walls and ceilings. Various cables, third rail, walkways, conduits, air ducts, escape hatches.
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Re: PBS: Sinking Cities - New York

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 23:14:43

Newfie wrote:Inflating big bags won’t work, you have to seal off all the interview, the tunnels have a lot of junk on the walls and ceilings. Various cables, third rail, walkways, conduits, air ducts, escape hatches.

Which, after 40+ years of fooling around with computers, I can tell you one thing for SURE -- no plan of any type is worth the paper it's written on, unless it has been successfully TESTED -- to prove it works in the real world.

But with government, it's often about being cheap, and having a CYA defense of a huge stack of paper, should something go wrong. And why should the government care? It's only the taxpayers' money they're wasting, and they can't successfully sue anyway, due to government rules.

And of course, liberals will say that if we only had much more taxation and government and spending, then everything would be just dandy, since government is so great. Let's just say I'll disagree until that is PROVEN -- and history has been decidedly MIXED on that theory.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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