Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 25 Oct 2018, 13:39:43

Newfie wrote:And population reduction is something we, as a species, can not abide.

Oui, what a mess.


It's a short term mess. And actually we do abide to population reduction by paradoxically bringing it on by default. So in this crazy perverted way as we zoom along in collective inaction this is actually tacit support to bring about population correcting consequences.

Most people actually want to surrender control over to a higher being which for some may be god, for others the overshoot predator. At a critical point the individual loses his relevancy as the collective becomes an unmanageable juggernaut. At that point the individual surrenders control to the deity of his choice. For those with religious persuasions this can be the invisible man in the sky. To those with ecological persuasions this can be the overshoot predator.

Which one is more real?

I hardly even give this much of a thought anymore because thoughts and even actions are no longer relevant to the reality that is unfolding. This takes you back to your friends and loved ones and to your garden in the backyard, the boat, the little piece of land you protect. Nothing else matters.

Discussions or on line forums about this topic is just a bunch of chattering noise that is like a flywheel not connected to a drive chain. It spins but does no work.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6607
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 25 Oct 2018, 15:44:36

Still good to air out thoughts, not able to do that much elsewhere.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby baha » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 07:51:22

Ibon wrote:It's a short term mess. And actually we do abide to population reduction by paradoxically bringing it on by default. So in this crazy perverted way as we zoom along in collective inaction this is actually tacit support to bring about population correcting consequences.


Yes, I will take this as a given and make decisions based on it. There will be a die-off, but there will be survivors. Pockets of people who are resilient and help each other instead of shooting each other. Sign me up as a survivor.

Ibon wrote:Most people actually want to surrender control over to a higher being which for some may be god, for others the overshoot predator.


Both of these are human concepts. I will not surrender control to a concept. It doesn't matter how hungry I am.

Ibon wrote:At a critical point the individual loses his relevancy as the collective becomes an unmanageable juggernaut.


How about now? I have felt irrelevant all my life. I have been pushed by the juggernaut and forced to play the game. The money game, the competition game, the rigged political game that is part of the juggernaut. Only recently have I broken loose and been able see it from the outside. IMHO the world is spiraling out of control. The political parties are retreating into their corners and refusing to answer to the public. Divisiveness is the story of the day. Let's cause as much hate and discontent as possible.

I think there is a sense in the collective that we have serious problems. That we are headed for a crash. But everyone is so blinded by their own pet peeves they can't see the real problem. There is just not enough room or resources to keep everyone happy. If I get enough you will starve. You want me to send you food, but if I do that I will starve. It's really been that way for a long time. There are always starving people. If you feed them they just make more!!

We mask the problems here in the US by printing the world currency. It works as long as we have a surplus of resources. It's easy to be magnanimous when you are fat and happy. The problems start when there is no more excess. I think we still have a few more years, maybe ten.

Unless we can steer the juggernaut onto a new course...But you're right! That ain't gonna happen. So what do you do?

You insert yourself in the middle. You make friends on both sides who are also moderate. You develop a local reputation for clear thought and strong ethics and then you wait. When the system comes apart you are there to help pick up the pieces. You show people how to build a strong base while caring about others. You don't criticize, you encourage.

This crazy system of ours is going to come down. It has been incremental so far but weather and energy constraints are going to push it over the edge. Our JIT system is going to start having holes in it. Maybe the power goes out, maybe there are lines for gas, maybe fresh vegetables are just not available in winter. It's not the end of the world but some people will die...The stupid ones who don't keep three days worth of food. Or they could freeze because the fuel truck didn't come on time.

The first step is resilience. Be able to take care of yourself for a few weeks. Prepare to help your neighbors, not shoot them. I did this. As I approached my goal I looked up and realized I can't do this totally by myself.

The second step is community. I realized my best bet to survive is to make myself useful to the community and make sure people know me and respect me. I have been putting myself out there to be seen. Attending meetings, volunteering my time. Smiling, cracking jokes, and never attacking anyone. I can agree to disagree.

I have developed a following :) As the collapse continues I will be the voice of reason who has been there all along saying the same thing...

We have to get used to living on less.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
I will see your google and raise you an infinity!

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Solar Advocate
Solar Advocate
 
Posts: 1063
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 13:27:46

Baha, That is inspiring and you are a testament of something I have often mentioned. It is the erosion of organic community that has caused the divisiveness. And when your community is eroded you look to social media as a replacement which then takes you down the anti social road toward tribal divisiveness. In your case you have developed resiliency by integrating deeply across the political spectrum in your community. Being involved in empowering people toward self reliance in energy only enhances this. So you are an exception, an early adapter, an example.

This is totally relevant to the greater question of human overshoot. Early adapters put resiliency above consumption, above accumulating wealth and status. It is in the act of service to others and ones community that one finds value and well being, not in how big your stock portfolio is. Contrast yourself and the tone of your posts to Cog for example who like a rat in a hole focuses on his stock portfolio as he mires in the swamp of divisiveness and anger and grievances. He is a fossil, you are riding the arch of history and change.

You strengthen the nation with the fiber of community while those living in the isolation of individualism will fall prey to populists promoting empty nationalism. As constraints start to squeeze this demarcation will become even clearer.

Stay on the high road Baha.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6607
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 13:42:28

Vote nationalism not the dead end of communism and socialism.

Baha is a useful idiot for communist propaganda who they will willingly execute when his usefulness to the party is over.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11059
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 14:15:31

Baja,

I’ve taken steps in a similar direction. I’ve sought to institute myself into a community in a place that is likely to care relatively well. And I’ve striven to remain flexible in my plans.

Being able to view the system from the outside is critical to clear headed thinking. When you take that distant observer view you can start to see how the many pieces are all starting to wobble, and withou knowing which keystone will go first or when, seeing that the whole mess is unstable.

I think many people “get” this on some subliminal level, even if they don’t talk about it.

But there are still far too many who are caught up in short sighted bickering over silly labels. They are corrosive to the whole. The left/right stereo bleating of sheep who can only follow but never have origional thoughts. This is the stuff of CNN/FOX. While they think the dicothomy is left/right oriented the real difference is between the chaos of the opera pits and the scenic overlook.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 14:20:26

You don't even vote Newfie and then complain how no one in government represents you. What is wrong with this picture?

Image
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11059
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 14:34:33

Show me where I said that. I don’t buy into their drivel. It’s interesting theater, and interesting to discuss, kinda like sports teams. But it’s irrelevant to the way the world moves.

No one in the government represents me whether I vote or not. Our votes are irrelevant because all high public officials bend knee to the same interests. Essentially the NY monied elite.

Neither party addresses in any manner my 5 top concerns. No one in power has the least sense of biophilia, they are disconnected. It’s like watching autisitc children play chess. Perhaps entertaining for a bit, but nothing I want to join.

If you want to start a thread on the power of voting in the USA, please do. I’ll join the discussion. But this thread is about immigration.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 15:10:19

One party wants open borders, the elimination of ice, and millions of illegals flooding the usa. Voting is absolutely germane to immigration.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11059
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 15:16:44

Not at all germane to this topic of 2°C warming.

I think we have an immigration thread.

Ah ha, found it.

the-immigration-legal-and-illegal-thread-merged-t29992-180.html

Strikes me as a relevant thread, I recall other recent posts on the topic that should have gone there.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 15:33:53

Well said guys. The political governing structure worldwide is hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual and offer zero plans for adaptation or even survival. Quite the opposite, they dare not mention the underlying limits to growth issues that are truly germane to the coming contraction. Instead, they offer the same empty jargon of economic growth and codified left/right prescriptions to the ailments of society. In fact these prescriptions do nothing to establish any coherent reply to the underlying profound problems. That is why Newfie comparing to a circus is so apt.

So, that is why the ideas you guys offer and your insight is so keenly astute and accurate. Individual and community preparation and await the now only effective remedy. That being what Ibon coined so eloquently, the Overshoot Predator who will instill order in the disorder of human affairs, though in ways not necessarily to our liking.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9779
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby jawagord » Fri 26 Oct 2018, 16:16:45

Tanada wrote:
A mere half a degree could spell the difference between the Arctic being ice-free once a decade and once a century; between coral reefs being almost entirely wiped out and up to 30 percent hanging on; and between a third of the world’s population being exposed to extreme heat waves and a tenth.

Ecosystems: Coral reefs have already been battered by warming and acidifying oceans, with widespread bleaching in recent years. Reefs have one of the bleaker future outcomes: a temperature rise of 2 degrees C would eliminate 99 percent of today’s reefs whereas 1.5 degrees C could save a sliver of them, with losses between 70 and 90 percent. Other animals face major losses in places to live. The amount of climatically suitable habitat lost by vertebrates and plants would double from a 1.5- to 2-degree C regime, and triple for invertebrates.

REPORT


Corals grow in cold water, who new?

Corals get damaged/decimated by fishing, who new?

Corals regrowing despite CO2 acidification (a false made up term as oceans have an alkaline pH), who new?

Corals have survive on earth for over 500 million years of climate change, who new?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4878932
jawagord
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon 29 May 2017, 09:49:17

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 13:52:14

Recently the Trump Adinistration noted that the world will blow through the remaining carbon and stopping it is not technical or financially feasible.

See para. 5.4.4.1 (page 5-30) in the linked report.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.g ... deis_0.pdf

Here is an associated WAPO piece on this report.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

IMHO this is an opening for climate activists to engage Washington directly on this matter.

I’m suprised that none of the activist groups are picking up on this.

I would have expected to see the brighter lights suggest letters or petitions along the lines of:

Dear xxxxx,

The admin says it’s not techchnically feasible and financially impractical to avert 4°C warming. That being the case please tell me in detail what you are doing to right this situation. Are you supporting technical research? If so which and to what level. How do you propose to protect the economy from the expected effect of this warming? How will you protect Manhattan? What about the Naval Base in Norfolk? Do you intend to relocate Miami and at what cost? Many more questions come to mind but I think you get the gist.

To quote a great American Founder “A stitch in time saves nine.” What are you stitching up before our butt is exposed?
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Revi » Wed 31 Oct 2018, 07:02:34

So the Trump Administration basically said that we need to keep going until we're all dead. Great...We wouldn't want to do anything that hurts the "Economy". What's the point of an economy anyway?
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
User avatar
Revi
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6951
Joined: Mon 25 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Maine

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 31 Oct 2018, 11:49:01

Well I don’t know exactly they said that.

What they said was CAFE standards are nibbling around the edges of the problem which they accepted as the IPCC report.

They didn’t say anything about how to address the problem but did note that a fix was both technically and financially not feasible.

But that leaves a lot of questions on the table:
What is feasible?
How much damage to the economy do we have to do?
What are you Mr. Government official doing in light of this revelation.

My Wife went a letter Senator Tomey (R-PA) asking his response, no answer yet.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Revi » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 06:58:23

It turns out the oceans are absorbing heat at a much higher rate than previously thought. I can see it in Maine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/energy-e ... f77664e2a1
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
User avatar
Revi
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6951
Joined: Mon 25 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Maine

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 08:33:06

A student last year who works on his post doc at the Smithsonian here in Panama is looking at shifting vegetation patterns with altitude. I never will forget his comment, "It is so awesome to be able to actually witness in real time, in the field, the effects of climate change". That singular comment of course does not reflect his whole position regarding climate change but it was startling to me how he was feeling awesome about the scientific opportunity to witness in real time the changes.

Same with the oceans ability to absorb heat. Isn't this an awesome opportunity to see how our biosphere adapts and adjusts.

Not that I embrace this orientation but there is something perhaps noteworthy in this clinical and objective witnessing of the changes that are baked in the cake that you can do nothing about
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6607
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 09:44:29

Yeah, I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and see a new wrinkle, or find a new arthritic joint and say: “This is just awesome to watch my body approach death on a daily basis in real time. Just sooo awesome!”
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 13 Nov 2018, 08:56:40

Newfie wrote:Well I don’t know exactly they said that.

What they said was CAFE standards are nibbling around the edges of the problem which they accepted as the IPCC report.

They didn’t say anything about how to address the problem but did note that a fix was both technically and financially not feasible.

But that leaves a lot of questions on the table:
What is feasible?
How much damage to the economy do we have to do?
What are you Mr. Government official doing in light of this revelation.

My Wife went a letter Senator Tomey (R-PA) asking his response, no answer yet.


I will wager a hundred brownie points all she gets back is a standard form letter thanking her for expressing her concerns.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4342
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 06:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Is the 2°C world a fantasy?

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Nov 2018, 10:12:31

You would win that bet easily. In fact I’m not sure she even got to deliver it, last I heard was a bunch of German cursing about his PITA web site. Maybe they blocked her? ;)
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 11265
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests