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THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 11:18:10

Outcast_Searcher wrote:But by all means, take that functioning "braincell" of yours, and show us how substantively, the dems are so much different than the GOP on policies that significantly reduce CO2.


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If the democrats were so ineffectual, then why is Trump working so hard to rollback what Obama did, like rolling back limits on coal powered plants and car mileage mandates? How about drilling our national parks while we're at it? Do I have to lead you by the collar to every single flagrantly anti-environmental policy move Trump has made? Should I start with Scott Pruitt? How about Exxon's Rex Tillerson of all people as Secretary of State for a conflict of interest? Should I back up and go over George W and his oil cronies? Are you that ignorant?

Look, if you want to be a perfect is the enemy of the good person and say it's all a drop in the bucket one way or the other, fine, but there is a huge difference in environmental/energy policy between the parties whether you're willing to admit it or not. To spend all your energy bashing the democrats comes across as just an attempt to lift up the GOP. At the very least it puts forward a fatalistic learned helplessness which is useless.

But I get it. Some people here are driven more by wedge social issues like gay marriage than they are about environment/energy policy. Shows how people's priorities are out of whack even after they become malthusians.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 11:30:01

GHung wrote:Maybe O_S needs to go at this the other way around. I googled "Republican proposed climate change legislation" and got ONE return:


Republican lawmaker pitches carbon tax in defiance of party stance

Representative Carlos Curbelo has proposed a tax on carbon dioxide emissions but Republicans are expected to block it
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ate-change


Maybe O_S can point us to the many Republican initiatives we haven't heard about.


Even McCain/Palin at least had clean energy as component of its kitchen-sink Lexington Project. Things have only gone downhill since then as the GOP have fully embraced brown-tech and only brown-tech, even to the point of trying to stymie the end of incandescent bulbs.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 11:53:26

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:A let's not pretend that the dems are truly much different


I don't really see what's to be gained in trying to establish equivalancy between the parties. Something (via the democrats) is worth more than nothing in my book, even though something would be woefully inadequate at this late stage of the game.

What I've noticed is that most of the people who hang around here are on the right end of the spectrum and they're suffering from severe cognitive dissonance as they attempt to simulateneously provide spin-control for Trump and the republicans while simulataneously claiming to give a damn about peak oil or the environment. Trying to paint the democrats as though their record is just as bad as the republicans is part and parcel of servicing that cognitive dissonance. I've got to imagine what's fueling this is a longstanding tribal affinity for the republicans and core republican causes that predate them becoming doomers, but it looks really really silly to anyone with a functioning braincell.


A Dante-esque explanation of this is that Democrats are Purgatory and Republicans are Hell. Neither represents where one wants to go. I'm actually a Pagan and Hell seems like fun, except Republicans can inhabit the blandness of heaven AFAIC and the Democrats can remain in Purgatory :-D
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:50:42

asg70 wrote:
GHung wrote:Maybe O_S needs to go at this the other way around. I googled "Republican proposed climate change legislation" and got ONE return:

When the dems have PASSED a significantly large national CO2 tax to try and curb CO2 production, be sure and get back to us.

It's easy, as I said, to talk about it. To make proposals. To pretend one cares. Outside of California, not much of substance gets done.

I'm not saying the GOP is doing much. I'm saying neither are the dems, aside from talking about it to try to get votes.

I gave Obama full credit for the best thing he did while president (IMO) -- the meaningful improvements on the US CAFE standards.

...

Trump is an outlier. He's not the whole GOP party.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 01:01:51

OS, did you see my earlier post? almost all of the 15 most co2 polluting states are red. Almost all of the 15 least co2 polluting states are blue. Seems to me the dems did a lot more than just propose and talk. They got actual results.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 01:24:48

kublikhan wrote:OS, did you see my earlier post? almost all of the 15 most co2 polluting states are red. Almost all of the 15 least co2 polluting states are blue. Seems to me the dems did a lot more than just propose and talk. They got actual results.

State results aren't national results. Why are you going back a whole decade? What does this have to do with national CO2 taxes?

It seems to me more like looking for something, anything to claim the dems are so much better via finding some old state statistics. Nice that there's some difference, but that still doesn't answer my claim re serious CO2 taxes to reduce AGW on a national level. Box score for both major parties is pretty much a zip.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 02:30:56

Outcast_Searcher wrote:State results aren't national results. Why are you going back a whole decade?
That is not decade old data. The report gave values for a wide range of years, from 2000-2015. The dollars are pegged to a mid point year, 2009, so you can compare results across the years. However the actual data I linked to is from 2015, the most recent data available. Sorry OS, but you're wrong here. If you want to look it up yourself the link is below:
Energy-Related Carbon Dioxide Emissions by State, 2000–2015

Outcast_Searcher wrote:What does this have to do with national CO2 taxes?
You asked the question:

Outcast_Searcher wrote:show us how substantively, the dems are so much different than the GOP on policies that significantly reduce CO2.
OS, you were asking how dems and the GOP where different on policies that significantly reduce CO2. I showed you exactly that. Your original question was not so narrowly defined to talk about only a national co2 tax. And BTW, I think your first question makes a heck of alot more sense than your new question. Why are you restricting the conversation to only the national level? Change can happen at any level: national, state, local. It makes little sense to dismiss real results just because they happened at the state or local level as opposed to the national level. Also, why are you restricting your question to only a national co2 tax? There are a plethora of ways to influence co2 levels. And they can be just as effective if not more so than a national co2 tax. Example:

* Eleven U.S. states[all blue] use market-based approaches to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

* State-based market policies to reduce greenhouse gases have been in operation since 2009.

* More than a quarter of the U.S. population lives in a state with carbon pricing. These states represent a third of U.S. GDP.

Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI)
Enacted in 2009, RGGI is the first U.S. cap-and-trade program to reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from the power sector. Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, and Vermont are members. CO2 emissions from power plants throughout the region are capped, and the regulated power plants trade emission allowances. Since the program started, covered emissions have fallen by about half from their 2005 high, and investments from allowance auctions have generated almost $3 billion in economic value for the member states. RGGI states announced in August 2017 their intent to reduce covered emissions another 30 percent between 2020 and 2030.
Market-Based State Policy — Center for Climate and Energy Solutions

To me, that sounds like the dems producing actual results that significantly reduce CO2 levels. Would you agree?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 12:14:11

Those statistics are pretty old, and they represent the status at the end of two terms by the R POTUS George W. Bush. Obama was attempting to jump start the economy at that time following the housing bubble, and was years away from effective environmental regulation. Not to mention that he was so inept at politics that most of what he did by Executive Order - such as CAFE limits and Clean Power Plan - could be undone via other EO's from Trump.

I just don't see a lot of progress anywhere but California, which is a quarter of the US economy, a quarter of the US population, and (in 2009) was #4 from the bottom in carbon emissions. Any stats that neglect state population and are not "per capita" are fairly meaningless IMHO.

My suspicions were aroused by states #1-#3, which were New York, Massachutsetts, and Connecticut. In case you have not visited the area recently (I got back a week ago) the NE states are the very place where dense human populations live in close proximity to large numbers of coal power plants, and people die at much accelerated rates from respiratory diseases.

Lastly, the financial centers of the country distort GDP statistics for New York (NYC is the #1 banking capital of the US), Massachutsetts (Boston is the #2 banking capital) and Connecticut (Hartford is the center of the Insurance racket). I happen to not respect GDPs that result from digital bits flipping inside computers, myself. By the time you reach California, the GDP statistics represent grain, vegetables, beef, cheese, tree nuts, wine, etc.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 13:03:00

As I mentioned in my previous post, those statistics are not from 2009. They are from 2015. They are however listed in 2009 dollars. That is because even though my post only gives the 2015 values, the entire report gives the values for the years 2000-2015. So they give chained dollars for the year 2009 so you can compare the values across years without worrying about inflation. The CO2 data itself however is from 2015. As such all the other points about 2009 are irrelevant.

If you prefer per capita statistics, the data is very similar:

Top 10 most CO2 polluting states per capita (in metric tons, 2014 data)
Wyoming 112
North Dakota 75
West Virginia 52
Alaska 47
Louisiana 45
Montana 32
Kentucky 31
Indiana 31
Nebraska 28
Oklahoma 27

Top 10 least CO2 polluting states per capita (in metric tons, 2014 data)
New York 5
California 9
Vermont 9
Massachusetts 9
Oregon 10
Connecticut 10
Rhode Island 10
Idaho 10
Maryland 10
Washington 10
List of U.S. states by carbon dioxide emissions

The above link is 2014 data. My earlier link gives 2015 data if you want something more recent(but it is sorted alphabetically instead of by CO2 emissions).

And as far as coal deaths per capita go: New York, Connecticut, and Massachusetts have far fewer per capita deaths compared to states like West Virginia, Kentucky, etc.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 13:43:23

Let's try to concentrate and get back on track. This conversation is distracted, it's wavering kind of stumbling around.

Teslaquila': Elon Musk may soon be selling Tesla-themed booze

Elon is a visionary. He see things other folks don't. Like pink elephants and mauve flying dragons.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 22:35:53

GHung wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Democrats, but am being compelled to detest Republicans. Sucks being an Independent these days.


Both sides are pretty disgusting. They just attack it from different angles. That said, they make a glorious circus for us Anarchists to watch.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 23:38:59

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:
GHung wrote:Maybe O_S needs to go at this the other way around. I googled "Republican proposed climate change legislation" and got ONE return:

When the dems have PASSED a significantly large national CO2 tax to try and curb CO2 production, be sure and get back to us.

It's easy, as I said, to talk about it. To make proposals. ......


Not for lack of trying, but maybe you think they can just wave their little magic congressional wands and get legislation passed.

Early in 2018, two bills on carbon pricing were re-introduced in the Senate and the House. The first is the Healthy Climate and Family Security Act (H. R. 4889 and S.2352), a bicameral effort from Representative Beyer (D-VA) and Senator Van Hollen (D-MD), calling for a national cap-and-dividend. The second bill, the American Opportunity Carbon Fee Act (S. 2368 and H.R. 4926), would implement a carbon tax and was introduced by Senators Whitehouse (D-RI) and Schatz (D-HI), and Congressmen Blumenauer (D-OR) and Cicilline (D-RI). ....

.....Earlier in 2017 another similar carbon pricing bill, the America Wins Act, was introduced by Climate Solutions Caucus member Rep. John Larson (D-CT) and co-sponsored by 16 other Democrats.
https://www.eesi.org/articles/view/is-t ... ted-states


.... but one need only follow the money to see why nothing's getting done:

Several conservative groups have also opposed such proposals, with groups raising concern regarding the possible negative impact on the U.S. economy. Tim Huelskamp, president of the free-market advocate and climate action opponent Heartland Institute, said that “a carbon tax will jack up our utility bills and harm America’s competitive place in the world.”


.... and I'm sure the Kochs and all friends are all for it
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 11:42:09

Outcast_Searcher wrote:It seems to me more like looking for something, anything to claim the dems are so much better


Man, you're the one shifting goalposts.

You do realize, btw, that during Obama's tenure he was dealing with the Tea Party wave and the "party of no" in trying to pass legislation, and now the House and Senate are still controlled by the GOP? So it's perfectly relevant to point to state policies.

You have our permission to start walking back your position now.

Image
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:11:57

Let's get this discussion going again . . . for the sake of Mankind and the Singularity. It's Elon's newest product. You can fly!!!!! [smilie=5propeller.gif]
Image
NEW YORK, Oct 16 — After electric cars, space rockets, tunnel-boring technology and high-speed transportation systems, Elon Musk appears to be branching into booze.

Musk had Twitter tongues a-wagging, after posting a simple tweet that read “Teslaquila coming soon...” and linking to a CNBC article revealing that the entrepreneur had filed an application with the US Patent and Trademark Office to trademark the name “Teslaquila”.

That tweet was followed by a photo titled “Visual approximation” featuring a red bottle label with a banner that reads “Teslaquila” under the company’s signature Tesla logo.


It has a label already! But then so does Elon's automobiles.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 14 Dec 2018, 12:25:18

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12- ... ut-working

As production and manufacturing hell continued, Musk went from mad genius to simply mad, according to the report. He would occasionally interrupt meetings and insist that coworkers watch clips of Monty Python movies on his laptop. He'd play the se clips more than once, laughing each time. When he split up with Amber Heard, Musk would reportedly miss meetings or cancel at the last minute.

Elon Bot has one too many screws loose. Should drop that Steve Jobs Insoluable Fruitarian Diet, tighten up and drop the 'genius' routine
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 14 Dec 2018, 14:50:23

asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:It seems to me more like looking for something, anything to claim the dems are so much better


Man, you're the one shifting goalposts.

You do realize, btw, that during Obama's tenure he was dealing with the Tea Party wave and the "party of no" in trying to pass legislation, and now the House and Senate are still controlled by the GOP? So it's perfectly relevant to point to state policies.
You have our permission to start walking back your position now.

BS. Excuses are like a**holes. Everyone has one.

Obama gets full credit from me for the CAFE standards improvements. That's the best thing he did in his entire time in office, IMO. Yet, re other meaningful national climate change legislation, it's crickets, IMO.

And Obama was shockingly for lots of military spending (not exactly great for the environment) during his tenure, vs. promises he made while campaigning. Not too surprising, given his overall record of promises vs. actions.

But let's pretend you and the dems moving the discussion from national to state policies is ME moving the goalposts. Sure. :roll:

And Trump is a real bad actor, re climate denial. But pretending like Trump is the entire GOP is clearly nonsense. Let's not forget that it was Nixon who started the EPA, for example.

But, I know, it's politics, not the search for rationality, much less truth. :!:
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Re: THE Tesla Thread (merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 14 Dec 2018, 15:03:10

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:It seems to me more like looking for something, anything to claim the dems are so much better


Man, you're the one shifting goalposts.

You do realize, btw, that during Obama's tenure he was dealing with the Tea Party wave and the "party of no" in trying to pass legislation, and now the House and Senate are still controlled by the GOP? So it's perfectly relevant to point to state policies.
You have our permission to start walking back your position now.

BS. Excuses are like a**holes. Everyone has one.

Obama gets full credit from me for the CAFE standards improvements. That's the best thing he did in his entire time in office, IMO. Yet, re other meaningful national climate change legislation, it's crickets, IMO.

And Obama was shockingly for lots of military spending (not exactly great for the environment) during his tenure, vs. promises he made while campaigning. Not too surprising, given his overall record of promises vs. actions.

But let's pretend you and the dems moving the discussion from national to state policies is ME moving the goalposts. Sure. :roll:

And Trump is a real bad actor, re climate denial. But pretending like Trump is the entire GOP is clearly nonsense. Let's not forget that it was Nixon who started the EPA, for example.

But, I know, it's politics, not the search for rationality, much less truth. :!:

All this squabbling :x You fanbois really should be cooperating with each other and Elon. Without your crucial dedication and necessary allegiances, the cynics will continue to gnaw at the edifice. Tearing down all Elon has worked so hard to bring to the magisty of robotics to the yearning masses. Where is the loyalty?

Fight I say. Fight the Good Fight for Elon. Be brothers :-D 8O
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