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The Greenland Thread

Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 19:15:23

Ummmmm.....I kinda doubt that Greenland has drained all of the heat out of the earth's molten core! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 21:07:32

vtsnowedin wrote:
kanon wrote:
Plant I did check it out months ago, see my old posts, at current rates it will take 15,000 years for all the ice to melt.

What happens if it rains? What is the possibility of a hurricane moving over Greenland and dropping a lot of liquid water? I suspect the chances of that type event are increasing.
Even at the height of the summer melt season a hurricane type storm would be a snow event over much of the island because of the altitude. The top of the ice pack averages 7000 feet above sea level.
A major storm might power scrub the coast and push back the glacier ends inland a bit but the main mass of ice would just shrug it off and might even gain from the increased snow fall.


I think your math is kind of fuzzy. Adiabatic cooling with altitude averages 3 degrees F for every 1000 feet or 21 degrees for 7000 feet. A tropical rainstorm event with 60 degree F raindrops will still be dropping 39 degree raindrops at 7000 feet and rainwater at that temperature can melt a LOT of ice.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 18:28:41

dohboi wrote:Ummmmm.....I kinda doubt that Greenland has drained all of the heat out of the earth's molten core! :lol: :lol: :lol:
No of course not but any extra heat sent up under Greenland fifty million years ago has already dissipated to some level less then when it first occurred and today most certainly has less impact then it did during the last ice age 20,000 years ago.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 18:33:13

Tanada wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
kanon wrote:
Plant I did check it out months ago, see my old posts, at current rates it will take 15,000 years for all the ice to melt.

What happens if it rains? What is the possibility of a hurricane moving over Greenland and dropping a lot of liquid water? I suspect the chances of that type event are increasing.
Even at the height of the summer melt season a hurricane type storm would be a snow event over much of the island because of the altitude. The top of the ice pack averages 7000 feet above sea level.
A major storm might power scrub the coast and push back the glacier ends inland a bit but the main mass of ice would just shrug it off and might even gain from the increased snow fall.

I think your math is kind of fuzzy. Adiabatic cooling with altitude averages 3 degrees F for every 1000 feet or 21 degrees for 7000 feet. A tropical rainstorm event with 60 degree F raindrops will still be dropping 39 degree raindrops at 7000 feet and rainwater at that temperature can melt a LOT of ice.

What makes you think that a cyclonic storm at those Latitudes would produce rainfall at sea level at 60 degrees F.??
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 18:36:35

No of course not but any extra heat sent up under Greenland fifty million years ago has already dissipated to some level less then when it first occurred and today most certainly has less impact then it did during the last ice age 20,000 years ago.


there are a host of papers out there on the subject of the Icelandic hot spot and its trace across Greenland along with estimates of current Greenland heat flow. As I pointed out that direct measure is above that which will cause basal melt on glaciers. Note the heat does not carry up through the entirety of the ice sheet that is quite thick but does have an impact on the ice/bedrock interface. Realize there is already some amount of pressure melting as a consequence of the heavy gravitational load. If you think of the P/T relationship in the appropriate phase diagram it is easy to see how increased basement heat flow would allow for greater basal melt. The same relationship is noted in Western Antartica, again with a number of recent publications that outline measurements and indirect estimates.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 19:05:29

rockdoc123 wrote: If you think of the P/T relationship in the appropriate phase diagram it is easy to see how increased basement heat flow would allow for greater basal melt. .
But how would an event fifty million years ago cause an increase in heat flow today?
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 19:52:08

But how would an event fifty million years ago cause an increase in heat flow today?


The high heat flow is a relic of the passage of Greenland over the Icelandic hot spot.

Martos, Y. M. et al, 2018. Geothermal heat flux reveals the Iceland Hotspot Track underneath Greenland. Geoph Res Lett, https://doi.org/10.1029/2018GL078289

Curie depths beneath Greenland are revealed by spectral analysis of data from the World Digital Magnetic Anomaly Map 2. A thermal model of the lithosphere then provides a corresponding geothermal heat flux map. This new map exhibits significantly higher frequency but lower amplitude variation than earlier heat flux maps and provides an important boundary condition for numerical ice‐sheet models and interpretation of borehole temperature profiles. In addition, it reveals new geologically significant features. Notably, we identify a prominent quasi‐linear elevated geothermal heat flux anomaly running northwest–southeast across Greenland. We interpret this feature to be the relic of the passage of the Iceland hotspot from 80 to 50 Ma. The expected partial melting of the lithosphere and magmatic underplating or intrusion into the lower crust is compatible with models of observed satellite gravity data and recent seismic observations. Our geological interpretation has potentially significant implications for the geodynamic evolution of Greenland.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 18:22:41

He has one hell of an engineering academician thesaurus working for him there, but I fail to see anything he says translates into English saying that the underside of Greenland is hotter today then it was ten thousand years ago.
He is just a bull s#!ter looking for his next research grant and salary.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 27 Aug 2018, 19:51:40

He has one hell of an engineering academician thesaurus working for him there, but I fail to see anything he says translates into English saying that the underside of Greenland is hotter today then it was ten thousand years ago.
He is just a bull s#!ter looking for his next research grant and salary.


If you can't understand what is being said in the paper then you really have no business questioning the interpretation. But apparently, you know better than the various authors who have published a number of papers on this topic (this is just the latest one) as well as all the associate editors who were involved in peer review. If you can argue scientifically why their interpretation of a "quasi-linear elevated geothermal heat flux anomaly" running across Greenland is incorrect then have at it. Or maybe you have access to a scientific paper that indicates there is no geothermal anomaly below Greenland, please share that with us all.

Otherwise it would appear you are the "bull s#!ter"
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 09:14:16

[quote="rockdoc123]
a "quasi-linear elevated geothermal heat flux anomaly" running across Greenland [/quote]
An almost, but not quite, straight line increase in bedrock temperature change from the historic or expected average running across Greenland.!!….
A lot of words to say not much at all other then they can still measure the tract of the magmas course. That does not lead to the conclusion that the bedrock under Greenland is getting warmer today then it was say 10,000 years ago. Only readers whose eyes glazed over reading the self aggrandizing text would draw that wrong conclusion.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 28 Aug 2018, 09:33:51

A lot of words to say not much at all other then they can still measure the tract of the magmas course. That does not lead to the conclusion that the bedrock under Greenland is getting warmer today then it was say 10,000 years ago. Only readers whose eyes glazed over reading the self aggrandizing text would draw that wrong conclusio


the paper is not arguing it is getting warmer, what it is arguing is that there is a region of increased basement heat flow as a consequence of the passing of the continent over a hot spot. Based on another recent paper

Rysgarrd, S et al, 2018. High geothermal heat flux in close proximity to the Northeast Greenland Ice Stream. Scientific Reports,8, 1344

The Greenland ice sheet (GIS) is losing mass at an increasing rate due to surface melt and flow acceleration in outlet glaciers. Currently, there is a large disagreement between observed and simulated ice flow, which may arise from inaccurate parameterization of basal motion, subglacial hydrology or geothermal heat sources. Recently it was suggested that there may be a hidden heat source beneath GIS caused by a higher than expected geothermal heat flux (GHF) from the Earth’s interior. Here we present the first direct measurements of GHF from beneath a deep fjord basin in Northeast Greenland. Temperature and salinity time series (2005–2015) in the deep stagnant basin water are used to quantify a GHF of 93 ± 21 mW m−2 which confirm previous indirect estimated values below GIS. A compilation of heat flux recordings from Greenland show the existence of geothermal heat sources beneath GIS and could explain high glacial ice speed areas such as the Northeast Greenland ice stream.


that measured heat flow is at a level which would accentuate basal melt, much as has been demonstrated for the West Antarctic ice sheet. The bottom line here is that attribution of glacier melt or flow speed totally to surface or ocean warming is incorrect. This is important to predictions of future behavior.

Also I need to point out that heat flow is not something that is static, it changes considerably. Measurement taken over the years from the East Arican rift system show considerable fluctuations. In the case of Greenland the overall picture is further complicated inasmuch as a portion is transitional crust rather than continental crust, meaning the heat flow is naturally higher.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Sep 2018, 17:06:18

Here is a short article about research in Greenland

https://gcaptain.com/harsh-climate-the- ... evel-rise/

Also here is a short book that is very well written. A story of a man and his two sons who visit the French base in Antarctica. Very remote. It gives a glimpse of what artic research is like, warts and all. Download is under $6.

I have an online acquaintance with the skipper, quite a knowledgeable young man. Very impressive.

https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Petrel-Tuck ... B0091EP4B6
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 22 Sep 2018, 09:52:36

Climate modeling discussion moved to the correct thread CLIMATE please reserve this thread for Greenland specific posts.
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 03 Oct 2018, 17:45:23

Atmospheric rivers melt Greenland

Nature Climate Change 8, 857-858, DOI: https://doi.org/10.1038/s41558-018-0297-4

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-018-0297-4

Abstract: "Recent years have seen increased melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet, contributing to accelerated rates of sea-level rise. New research suggests that this melting is due to an increased frequency of atmospheric rivers, narrow filaments of moist air moving polewards."
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Re: The Greenland Thread

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 17:22:26

dohboi wrote:Atmospheric rivers melt Greenland

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