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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 20:08:52

vtsnowedin wrote:
asg70 wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:Exactly. It just amazes me how infrequently this possibility of living close to work (or taking the bus) to save money is seriously discussed.


It's the 21st century. Most white-collar work is electronic in nature, hence telecommuting.

Eliminating all unnecessary travel and a shift towards telecommuting would probably add more years to BAU than all unconventional reserves combined. And that's not even factoring in EVs.
Realize now that the white collar work just covers the planning and clerical work of a project. The blue collar work, digging the holes, tieing the rebar, placing the concrete etc. have to be done in the field and can not be done by a telecommuter. The administration cost of jobs back when they were building the Interstate highway system varied between five and fifteen percent. Today the big dig and other modern projects has the white collar (and incompetent) fraction up around thirty percent of the total cost.
We need to rethink how we go about these projects.

I knew it. I felt it in my bones. So 5% bureaucratic BS has metastasized to %30 waste. The paper boys run the world and get a cut of every real job. It's an oligopoly worse than commie Russia. Or even Trump America lol

There's a little known theory about the way this our crap works. Google the "Waste Distribution System" sometime. It's a yuck.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 03:08:21

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/8/17308744/bullshit-jobs-book-david-graeber-occupy-wall-street-karl-marx

there are millions of people across the world — clerical workers, administrators, consultants, telemarketers, corporate lawyers, service personnel, and many others — who are toiling away in meaningless, unnecessary jobs, and they know it.


Bullshit jobs are jobs which even the person doing the job can’t really justify the existence of, but they have to pretend that there’s some reason for it to exist. That’s the bullshit element. A lot of people confuse bullshit jobs and shit jobs, but they’re not the same thing.


Bad jobs are bad because they’re hard or they have terrible conditions or the pay sucks, but often these jobs are very useful. In fact, in our society, often the more useful the work is, the less they pay you. Whereas bullshit jobs are often highly respected and pay well but are completely pointless, and the people doing them know this.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 12:12:11

Y - I've never worked for a company that paid for a worker it didn't need. But I have worked companies that needed more workers but instead worked existing employees harder. Yes: the Rockman has worked 60 to 70 hrs per week for a fixed salary. And glad to have the job.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 16:45:45

Oops. Dup post. My bad.
Last edited by Outcast_Searcher on Mon 20 Aug 2018, 16:53:57, edited 1 time in total.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 16:52:47

ROCKMAN wrote:Y - I've never worked for a company that paid for a worker it didn't need. But I have worked companies that needed more workers but instead worked existing employees harder. Yes: the Rockman has worked 60 to 70 hrs per week for a fixed salary. And glad to have the job.

Yup. I, and MANY people in computers (information technology) jobs did as well.

When I was 35, I LOVED my job and literally couldn't have imagined wanting to retire before 52, where I could have full retirement benefits, including my IBM pension.

Then came Gerstner and all the cost saving mentality that hit IBM and a huge proportion of other companies in the US. For me it wasn't just the escalating hours (for no extra pay and small raises) -- it was the stupidity and complete lack of respect the IT workers got.

So by the time I was 42, I'd have preferred to leave, and by the time I was 45 I was literally saving over half my after tax income, trying to get the hell away from there ASAP, as things just kept getting worse.

...

It's easy to write a book and claim that many jobs are bullshit jobs. Given how hard companies try to save money, I'll believe it when meaningful proof is offered.

That sort of thinking reminds me of the liberal idiots who think some government administrator should determine what everyone is paid in the name of "fairness".

And that jobs would be paid by what it superficially looks like someone does (example, sit at a desk, or not). So these people would pay a low skilled clerk the same as a CEO of a giant complex company.

Yeah, THAT system would make a country an economic peer of Venezuela over time. Brillinat! (NOT)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 19:12:23

So these people would pay a low skilled clerk the same as a CEO of a giant complex company.


Who said that? Citations? I've seen it said that everyone should make a living wage, and that top executives shouldn't be paid hundreds of times what the lowest paid workers are making when they aren't making a living wage, but I don't recall anyone suggesting that the guy in the mail room should be paid the same as the CEO.

.... or maybe a rare moment of hyperbole?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 22:03:50

GHung wrote:
So these people would pay a low skilled clerk the same as a CEO of a giant complex company.


Who said that? Citations? I've seen it said that everyone should make a living wage, and that top executives shouldn't be paid hundreds of times what the lowest paid workers are making when they aren't making a living wage, but I don't recall anyone suggesting that the guy in the mail room should be paid the same as the CEO.

.... or maybe a rare moment of hyperbole?

Note that I didn't say all or most liberals.

And I understand that most folks are looking for a balance between pay and responsibility, and that everyone should receive a living wage.

I was talking about a specific idea where government administrators would determine "fair" pay. And the problem with them being able to do so in any reasonable way.

This was a few decades ago, and I can't remember if this was in a magazine article or book or some water cooler discussion of capitalism vs. socialism. (Sorry). I'm not finding good web hits -- but I might well be using the wrong words to search on.

Obviously, the way this would be handled, could be all over the map. We have what I would consider to be one of the worst ideas possible, from Karl Marx, aimed at "fairness" re "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."

Ayn Rand did a nice job of pointing out how well THAT would work out in the real world in "Atlas Shrugged", IMO.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Aug 2018, 07:10:43

ROCKMAN wrote:Y - I've never worked for a company that paid for a worker it didn't need. But I have worked companies that needed more workers but instead worked existing employees harder. Yes: the Rockman has worked 60 to 70 hrs per week for a fixed salary. And glad to have the job.


Roc,
I have. And I’ve seen it elsewhere with companies I consulted for.

And yes, I too have worked those dame long fix salary jobs, while drones sit in the sidelines making my same salary. Who’s the idiot?

The worst abusers were public service entities; some public transit. But the mentality seemed to weep into the engineering/consulting field. I’ve regularlly recommended we cut specific staff, only infrequently acted upon. It’s really bad having a slider in an office, it wears everyone down. Folks realize the companies health relies upon productivity. At some point letting someone go actually increases moral, “what took you so long?”

Then we had folks who were good workers with a specific skill set. We would hold onto them trying to find a project where they could contribute. Makes sense to a point, but when that slides into 18 months to 2 years no one is happy. Even the employee, if he’s with his salt, knows it can’t go on so he becomes edgy, sullen. Why the company did this, and it was more than one, I can’t say.

Some transit agencies have too few workers, some have too many, one is as bad as the others. Unionizing the managerial and engineering levels seems to be disastrous.

I was far happier Willem if construction jobs. Here the unions represented a source of skilled temporary workers you can draw from. It’s a great model. It’s where I’ve seen unions at their most effective.

Can’t think of a way to tie this back to the topic other than most of the work I’ve done has been related to electric propulsion transit systems.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 22 Aug 2018, 17:50:07

Roc,
I have. And I’ve seen it elsewhere with companies I consulted for.


I also have. My last job was complete bs. It lasted 5 years and then they finally ended it. As much as I know they have continued to constantly downsizing in personnel. Most of the the day I was just sitting behind the desk browsing internet. The salary was also quite good.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby dolanbaker » Thu 23 Aug 2018, 02:02:19

I've been in jobs where in between projects, you're expected to turn up at the office and basically do nothing!
It made no sense at all, it would have been better if we were given "gardening leave" until the next project came along.
When we were busy, we were busy.

Anyway, nothing to do with EV's.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby GHung » Thu 23 Aug 2018, 08:03:32

New tariffs on Chinese products kick in today including the types of motors used for electric bikes, etc. The final "second tranche" of products seeing 25% or more tariffs includes:

Electric motors of an output of under 18.65 W, synchronous, valued not over $4 each
8501.10.60
Electric motors of an output of 18.65 W or more but not exceedin
g 37.5 W
8501.20.40
Universal AC/DC motors of an output exceeding 74.6 W but not exceeding 735 W
8501.31.40
DC motors, nesoi, of an output exceeding 74.6 W but not exceeding 735 W
8501.31.80
DC generators of an output not exceeding 750 W
8501.32.20
DC motors nesoi, of an output exceeding 750 W but not exceeding 14.92 kW
8501.32.60
DC generators of an output exceeding 750 W but not exceeding 75 kW
8501.33.20
DC motors nesoi, of an output exceeding 75 kW but under 149.2 kW
8501.33.30
DC motors,
nesoi, 149.2 kW or more but not exceeding 150 kW
8501.52.40
AC motors nesoi, multi
-
phase, of an output exceeding 750 W but not exceeding 14.92
kW
8501.53.60
AC motors, nesoi, multi
-
phase, 149.2 kW or more but not exceeding 150 kW


https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/en ... ranche.pdf
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 23 Aug 2018, 20:22:23

There has been an EV sighting in Bankrupt Ireland. Sorry, it was false. I know why the irish politicians don't drive BEV's. Its because they were designed for Chumps...the suckers who will be declared rich people who will allow the bankrupt governments to screw over royally. Thats why the second hand value of EV's is zilch. There will be no escaping their accounts being emptied for being suckered by a religion.

Oh, did I mention all the wind farms are either up for sale or going bankrupt?

http://irishenergyblog.blogspot.com/201 ... mment-form

Meanwhile, not one Irish politician drives a fully electric car. All fly around the world in fossil fuel powered aircraft. All state vehicles are fuel powered.
There is no escaping The Oil Apocalypse and there will be no survivors.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby EdwinSm » Fri 24 Aug 2018, 03:38:36

Russia's challenge to Tesla: a Kalashnikov's CV-1. I wonder what extras it comes with 8O :roll: :razz:

Image

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45292028
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 24 Aug 2018, 14:33:14

EdwinSm wrote:Russia's challenge to Tesla: a Kalashnikov's CV-1. I wonder what extras it comes with 8O :roll: :razz:

Image

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45292028

When I saw this, my brain screamed "FUGLY!!".

I know style is in the eye of the beholder, but somehow Russian "style" from the 70's makes a modern day typical middle class car look like a great work of art.

A FOX review I just saw mentioned the top speed was 50 MPH. Somehow, unless these things cost under $20K and can be easily serviced, I don't think Tesla has much to worry about until they get serious.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby Zarquon » Fri 07 Sep 2018, 17:07:38

Instant collector item. Like a Tesla, but much harder to get on eBay in 2025.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 07 Sep 2018, 17:22:42

Look a a Zil limousine from Russia. This particular style must have
appeal based on legacy cars in Russia, that, or the tooling was
from something earlier and to be had inexpensively. Russians
are good at perfecting legacy designs, like the Soyuz for example.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 8

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 08 Sep 2018, 04:21:28

Maybe so, but the aerodynamics will be awful and will probably take several Km off the range.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 08 Sep 2018, 14:44:49

KaiserJeep wrote:IMHO, nobody's opinion of pot-smoking Elon Musk really matters. The problem with the Tesla Model 3 and all other plug-in vehicles is that after years of sales, in the USA for example, and counting BOTH Hybrids and BEVs, the 2017 sales were 1.15% of the total light duty vehicles.

Nobody much cares, outside of this thread. They certainly won't be doing much to soften the blow of running out of cheap oil.


In my shared driveway are parked 8 vehicles, 3 of which are hybrids, Toyota Prius's. One other should also have been a Prius as the student just drives 5 miles to school and back everyday. I hardly drive, but once in a while I want to go 500 miles in a day. The hybrids, in general, seem like a good choice. For the long distance commuters, with unpredictable travel times, all-electric vehicles are out of the question (except Tesla's, but, Tesla's don't seem to be a value proposition).
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 3

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 09 Sep 2018, 11:35:04

KaiserJeep wrote:They certainly won't be doing much to soften the blow of running out of cheap oil.


It's a hallmark of a site like this to forecast many years in the future as you're doing here. Since this site is now what, close to 15 years old, it's also a hallmark that these forecasts turn out to be wrong.

People are short-term thinkers for sure. That explains why truck and SUV sales are through the roof and sedans are going the way of the dodo. At the same time, the Model 3 reservations two years ago indicate that there is a viable market for mass producing EVs. But it has to meet these criteria:

a) Over 200 miles range
b) cost under $40K (preferably with the tax credit available).
c) not look like crap (Bolt fails)
d) have decent battery management (Leaf currently fails)
e) decent fit-finish and reliability

The current Model 3 doesn't meet all these criteria because it's highly-optioned, tax credit is phasing out, and showing itself to have poor fit-finish and reliability. It is selling like hotcakes due to being on the tail-end of the hype cycle and due to no viable competion.

Cars like the new thermal-managed Leaf, Kona, and Niro will satisfy all those criteria, but will be limited by battery supplies.

Beyond those, the next car I think will make a dent will be the first round of ID vehicles from VW. VW has made it a point that its offerings will be affordable. That's NOT the case with iPace, EQC, Polestar, Taycan, eTron, etc... These higher-end vehicles will follow the Tesla Model S/X pattern of establishing a beachhead but not really making a serious dent in overall carbuying patterns.

GM also is going to make an aggressive play in the early 2020s. We just don't know the full details yet.

This is also completely ignoring the impact of traditional hybrids and plugins. There's not much of a cost premium to a hybrid anymore. The Niro hybrid (not plugin) get 49/52 MPG. That is exceptional for a car of its size. The new Insight (basically a Civic) Hybrid gets 49/55 MPG. Both are in the low $20K range. So even just a wholescale shift away from pure ICE to hybrid would save tons of gas. Heck, even the Kia Stinger is a stop-start hybrid. Why burn gas idling at signals anymore??

But no. On sites like this, perfect is the enemy of good and only complete electrification matters.

Unless you expect the world to make a swift sharkfin turn into Mad Max territory, I'd say there's plenty of time for this transition to continue to play out, even if you completely exclude Tesla from the mix.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 09 Sep 2018, 12:29:25

jedrider wrote:"For the long distance commuters, with unpredictable travel times, all-electric vehicles are out of the question (except Tesla's, but, Tesla's don't seem to be a value proposition)."


That is not true :( All you need is a plan, to wit:

--drive 50 miles for the first leg of your exciting journey. Stop for a recharge and slice of pie. Enjoy the pie, fries, coffee yesterdays's newspaper and a game of scrabble with a Tesla Trucker. And study the nice day.

--drive 100 miles while enjoying the mountain scenery. Remember to check battery status . . . OMG 5% . . . pull into nearly abandoned strip mall shopping center and search out 110 plug. Open the Tesla's funky front trunk and set up camp

--after a day of exploring colorful services tattoos tae kwon do you choose an oriental manicure and massage while the kids explore the train tracks . . . then it's back on the road.

--Back on the road. Day Eight. Almost out of town lol
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