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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Mon 29 Apr 2019, 13:40:03
by Ibon
radon1 wrote: They somehow find a doctor but the entire thing begins to fall apart in couple years time as nobody is available to maintain it. And this all is vastly expensive as a hospital for 100 people costs as much as the one for 10 000 in terms of building and maintenance. The solution is straightforward - bring people into clusters. Not only will they be able to visit a modern hospital, but also they will have a much greater choice in terms of available jobs and opportunities.


Wilderness is a refuge and no longer provides livelyhood for modern humans. So these huge wilderness areas that remain can be understood as a place for humans to visit to nourish the soul, not provide a means of physical sustenance. Wilderness is a spiritual church in this sense. Preservation of wilderness is laying the foundation for an alternative to consumption. this is not theoretical, you can see it practiced already by millions. Maybe these millions are still eclipsed by the billions of clueless consumers but it is an important start.

One example are the millions of bird watchers globally, folks that spend their free time going out out on their own or who join clubs and find natural areas closer to their homes to spend time observing the diversity of avifauna, observing and recording migration of hundreds of species of birds. I will give you a specific data. There are 300,000 members on EBird which is a citizen science site where bird watchers record their sightings Since 2002 there have been recorded 300 million specific bird sightings This data is valuable for monitoring changes of population etc. Compared to the global population of mindless consumers this may seem like a small fraction of humanity but it is a good example of a sizable population of human beings choosing to spend their time in nature and feeling a tribal alliance with others with a mission of sorts to protect birds. This is one of many examples actually. The Russians and Ukranians that are currently visiting have shared with me how popular it is in Russia to go out to surrounding forests and natural areas to collect mushrooms, how popular it is in Russia to have really robust back yard gardens that contribute an important percentage of their vegetable consumption. Etc etc.

I disparage the vast population of Kudzu Apes who have become mindless consumers but at the same time I acknowledge the viability of alternative orientations that already exist. The number of humans who derive well being spending time out doors. I am a host every year to hundreds of them.

Your point is well taken regarding the efficiency of modern life requiring humans clustering together in urban and suburban living.

If I think of the suicide statistics that Newfie posted and if I think of how many of our guests here come to find spiritual sustenance to heal what urban living is lacking then we can begin to not only understand the spiritual impoverishment afflicting the vast majority of humanity but also the remedy to this. If over consumption is one of the major causes of human overshoot then it is not hard to understand the important role nature plays in providing spiritual sustenance as an alternative to consumption. This does not require that everyone travels thousands of miles.

If we take a close look at the lifestyle of your average American, many no longer even understand the connection of the food they buy in grocery store and the plant or tree that was grown to provide this food. You can no longer recognize the plant or animal source of most packaged process food these days. Americans do not stand alone but they certainly are much more disconnected from natural processes then the majority of humanity. Think opiate addiction, suicide, addiction to media, obesity, the ease to which angry folks with grievances are susceptible to the hatred spewed by demagogue leaders and one begins to understand the depths of the spiritual poverty in the United States of America.

The Chinese pathological relationship with money was recently explained to me by a Chinese American... It seems the Chinese suffer a growing population of mentally deranged and hungry consumers as well.

Many pockets of deeply afflicted Kudzu Apes around the planet. Americans aren't alone but they are certainly well infected and well represented of this cultural decadence.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Mon 29 Apr 2019, 19:03:50
by Ibon
Continuing to derail this socialism thread with more musings about how nature has become an abstraction.

So there are articles that children should be outside 4-6 hours per day, that there is this thing called Nature Deficit Disorder when modern humans lose completely contact with the natural world.

The very fact that we now have a disorder with a name and the very fact that more and more children aren't spending time out of doors is something our grandfathers would have found unfathomable. And yet here we are.

Incredible really the growing percentage of our planets human inhabitants who don't know their planet.... except for digital abstract representations.

The planet that they do not know will not treat them kindly one day. That is the way that many will finally become introduced....

Leave it at that!

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Mon 29 Apr 2019, 21:29:55
by KaiserJeep
Ibon, consider that Nature is not kind in the action of evolution, either. The norms of every prior generation may - indeed, almost certainly are not - appropriate for a network of human minds that communicate with mobile devices.

The network is persistent wherever it reaches. There are few places on Earth that do not have access. Once established, little in the way of infrastructure is required to retain network access. Mankind is now a networked hive organism, evolving towards a new species norm that may not even be life on the surface of a planet, but rather a space habitat.

Before the chorus of "Not that again!", note that your belief and acceptance of the concept is simply not required. In fact those of you who are truly awake and aware have already noted that society and culture are rapidly changing as a result of the omnipresent network.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Tue 30 Apr 2019, 04:52:10
by radon1
Ibon wrote:The planet that they do not know will not treat them kindly one day. That is the way that many will finally become introduced....

Overall I agree with the points, but a couple observations can be made.

The idea of the unification with nature may itself begin to sound like an ideology - ecologism, eco-socialism, naturalism or whatever. Once people are fed and have some leisure time, they probably want to have a free choice in respect if how they spend this leisure time. May be take dance classes, or chorus or biking, or posting on forums, go after mushrooms, or alter in between activities etc. If you force them into an activity, as well-intended as it can be, it may start to look a bit like dictatorship.

Second, the gardening activities in Russia and Ukraine are mostly done out of necessity, even if they have the added benefit of being healthy or enjoyable or else. People cannot fully utilize themselves within the existing world's economic system, and spend their spare hours engaged in primitive agriculture to compensate for it. This is definitely not something advantageous, as this is quite an inefficient allocation of resources. The existing system is unable to produce enough demand to accommodate their spare hours, and people, however talented/hardworking/ethical/whatever they are, have to leech off the natural resources pie that the authorities cut for them as is the case in Russia, or join the race to the bottom as is the case in Ukraine. Or emigrate with all the accompanying hassle and debilitating humiliation. Or do some optional gardening. The existing system is unable to deliver, as mush as its advocates state the opposite repeatedly.

And this is one of numerous manifestations of why people can be dissatisfied with the existing system for very down-to-earth, non-ideological, easy to understand reasons. No surprise that the appointed challenger was Zizek, a resident of the most successful post-Cold War east European country and altogether Melania's place of origin, but the country caught in the so called "middle-income" trap. While the protector was Peterson, a fatcat from one of the wealthiest spots on the globe. Look at the correspondent split on this forum - no difference. The debate is essentially between questioning the status-quo, and protecting it, as it has been for centuries before, but for some reason framed as "capitalism vs socialism".

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Tue 30 Apr 2019, 18:47:47
by KaiserJeep
Nobody ever said that "life" was a concept limited to planetary surfaces. The Sun, for example, could be a boiling hot cauldron of gases, teeming with - call them "micro-organisms" the size of Texas, who behave even stranger than Texans do. Perhaps the "dark matter" that surrounds our Solar System is a gigantic sea of near vacuum, and asteroids, comets, etc. are the living plankton equivalents.

We live on a particular planet with other carbon-based life. That does not mean that such biochemistry is the only possible one or that we would even recognize other forms of life if we saw them.

The idea that the Earth is the creche of the cybernetic hive mind entered my head slightly over three years ago. I do in fact believe that we will evolve off this ball of dirt and fecundate the Solar System. Whether we survive or become extinct is uncertain. What is not uncertain at all is that all of us, even myself, lack the imagination to anticipate the true shape of the future, or whether the human race will splinter into two or more species, the one that most of you would call "human" being the one that still lives on the increasingly toxic planet, and also begins rapidly mutating.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Tue 30 Apr 2019, 19:17:45
by Cog
The people in Venezuela are finding out what socialism brings you. 10 million percent inflation.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postPosted: Wed 01 May 2019, 06:39:38
by lpetrich
Cog wrote:
Newfie wrote:Cog,
What’s wrong with the United Nations? What’s wrong with folks from various countries talking?

I see no common ground with an organization dedicated to the destruction of capitalism and the USA in particular, in favor of global socialism. But a unique form of socialism in which the rich countries are bled dry to fund the poor ones.

How is that supposed to be the case? There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in the John Birch Society.