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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 30 Dec 2018, 16:57:53
by Newfie
Then this is where I don’t get excited about the 1%. A lot of that value they are claiming is simply not real to begin with. It’s all this BS and baloney money. Stuff that exists on paper only.

So who dies if 16T in derivatives are wiped out? If it’s no one or even if it’s a few my point is made. There may be SOME small initial value in this ballon but most is vapor ware. Same with stocks. Gates is worth X billions, supposedly. But he can’t sell the stock, it must remain in the vapor. If MS stock drools 90%, who dies? Probably a few folks who are living on those dividends or who had hoped to sell to fund retirement will be hurt. But that was never real money, it is and remains Maddoff money until it is sold and transfered into something more tangible.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 30 Dec 2018, 18:34:44
by onlooker
Newfie, on a perfunctory superficial view, what you are saying seems true, but on closer analysis it could not be more wrong. "It is clear that the establishment view hasn’t changed. The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has made recent statements saying that the UK should double the size of its financial sector over the next 25 years, salivating at the idea that Britain could ‘become the investment banker of Europe’ after Brexit. But the banking and finance sector is by its nature rent-seeking, and so gets bigger through wealth extraction from the rest of the economy. This makes its growth a cause for concern, rather than celebration.

Furthermore, less than 10% of new lending goes towards productive purposes which support the real economy. The vast majority is lent to property and financial markets, resulting in an economy skewed towards housing bubbles, finance, and asset price inflation, whilst people have to rely on taking on more and more debt to top up falling incomes."

The key point, is the exploitation and extraction of wealth from the real Economy. That is what has been happening within every rich country and in the relation of rich countries to poor ones. Mainly via the Debt based system and Markets. So, the finance sector and these digits may not seem real or have real world implications but they do. They are hedge funds buying up property in Africa, they are rich countries imposing onerous debt on poor ones, they are poor class neighborhoods bulldozed away to make way for high price housing and hotels etc. They are the neglect of the infrastructure of this country because corporations and their stockholders do not see gain in attending to this. It is about the highest rate of return, cutting costs, cutting jobs, cutting wages etc. It is the world we have now that is so unequal, whereby a few people have more money than millions and even billions and basically corrupt fully the political process.

So, this exorbitant amount of money is being put to use to attain more money and sometimes to foolishly leverage and push the market into speculative bubbles like the real estate subprime mortgage one. When countries are forced to change their agricultural sector to one catering to exporting, it has real world definite impacts of making poor people already on the edge, fall over into utter destitution, famine, disease and war. So even as the middle class of the US has been hollowed out and weakened with policies from some administrations, it is the roughshod exploiting methodology of the Finance sector which truly sets the tone for a more and more unequal and unjust world with benefits for few and the rest see their living standards get ever worse.

https://www.redpepper.org.uk/ten-years- ... f-control/

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 30 Dec 2018, 18:55:02
by Newfie
Extracting wealth from poor folks has been going on as long as civilization. It predates this high faulting economy we have, hell it predates money. So it that exploitation existed before this economy then something else is going on.

Furthermore, less than 10% of new lending goes towards productive purposes which support the real economy. The vast majority is lent to property and financial markets, resulting in an economy skewed towards housing bubbles, finance, and asset price inflation, whilst people have to rely on taking on more and more debt to top up falling incomes."


There is much truth to this. At its core money represents a mans value to society. Someone mines ore and converts it to steel, there is much added value there. He has MADE something. All the rest, 90% you say, OK then 90% is BS manipulation. If you haven’t made something, done something of added value, then it’s, by definition, not creating wealth. It’s smoke and mirrors BS. MADDOFF MONEY. it does not truly exist. You may think it exists, you may be convienced it exists, but it doesn’t. Here is a simple test. What happens if it disappears? If nothing happens then it didn’t exist in the first place. Whining and being distraught don’t count.

EXAMPLE: In 2008 no houses disappeared. Their INFLATED value was adjusted downward to their REAL value. But the house still provided its basic function of shelter. It’s true value did not change. The adjusted differential was MADEOFF MONEY.

I find myself a very wealthy person, I would not for one second trade places with Gates, and for damn sure not with Steve Jobs.

Saw his boat the other day in Grenada. He never got to sail on it, not that he could “sail” it anyway, he would have to be chauffeured around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(yacht)

Piece of shit, useless toy, vanity on display. Tulips. But it did spread a bunch of money around to folks who need it. And created a bunch of entropy, and hastened the end of civilization by a wee bit.

Follow the link below, there is a 15 min video about Nick Skeats. This fellow is, in my mind, a true 1%er, a very wealthy man. Sorry, I don’t know how to paste the video link directly.

http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/8 ... imple-boat

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 01:32:18
by ralfy
Newfie wrote:Then this is where I don’t get excited about the 1%. A lot of that value they are claiming is simply not real to begin with. It’s all this BS and baloney money. Stuff that exists on paper only.

So who dies if 16T in derivatives are wiped out? If it’s no one or even if it’s a few my point is made. There may be SOME small initial value in this ballon but most is vapor ware. Same with stocks. Gates is worth X billions, supposedly. But he can’t sell the stock, it must remain in the vapor. If MS stock drools 90%, who dies? Probably a few folks who are living on those dividends or who had hoped to sell to fund retirement will be hurt. But that was never real money, it is and remains Maddoff money until it is sold and transfered into something more tangible.


The problem is that the global economy also operates through the same vaporware, as fractions of those large sums are also used to gamble on prices of commodities, real estate, etc. The result of fallout from such risks is that most people worldwide suffer. Worse, if the government bails out the rich the debts are passed on to the latter.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 01:44:34
by ralfy
Newfie wrote:Extracting wealth from poor folks has been going on as long as civilization. It predates this high faulting economy we have, hell it predates money. So it that exploitation existed before this economy then something else is going on.

Furthermore, less than 10% of new lending goes towards productive purposes which support the real economy. The vast majority is lent to property and financial markets, resulting in an economy skewed towards housing bubbles, finance, and asset price inflation, whilst people have to rely on taking on more and more debt to top up falling incomes."


There is much truth to this. At its core money represents a mans value to society. Someone mines ore and converts it to steel, there is much added value there. He has MADE something. All the rest, 90% you say, OK then 90% is BS manipulation. If you haven’t made something, done something of added value, then it’s, by definition, not creating wealth. It’s smoke and mirrors BS. MADDOFF MONEY. it does not truly exist. You may think it exists, you may be convienced it exists, but it doesn’t. Here is a simple test. What happens if it disappears? If nothing happens then it didn’t exist in the first place. Whining and being distraught don’t count.

EXAMPLE: In 2008 no houses disappeared. Their INFLATED value was adjusted downward to their REAL value. But the house still provided its basic function of shelter. It’s true value did not change. The adjusted differential was MADEOFF MONEY.

I find myself a very wealthy person, I would not for one second trade places with Gates, and for damn sure not with Steve Jobs.

Saw his boat the other day in Grenada. He never got to sail on it, not that he could “sail” it anyway, he would have to be chauffeured around.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(yacht)

Piece of shit, useless toy, vanity on display. Tulips. But it did spread a bunch of money around to folks who need it. And created a bunch of entropy, and hastened the end of civilization by a wee bit.

Follow the link below, there is a 15 min video about Nick Skeats. This fellow is, in my mind, a true 1%er, a very wealthy man. Sorry, I don’t know how to paste the video link directly.

http://www.wavetrain.net/boats-a-gear/8 ... imple-boat


The difference is that the global population is many times larger now, and to sustain life expectancy rates large amounts of material resources and energy need to be used. Those amounts are in turn affected by diminishing returns plus pollution.

The rich are the main funders of economic activity involving such, and insist that such activity continue to rise so that their own wealth grows as well. Meanwhile, they use that wealth to buy what they believe are secure areas where they hope to ride out the effects of financial fallout, diminishing returns, and environmental collapse when all money (not just "Madoff money") vaporizes.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 06:38:31
by Newfie
Correct, not ALL just Madoff Money. But a large proportion. And I don’t disagree with your analysis above.

There are huge gaps between the rich and poor, the financial number exaggerate the breadth of that gap. There is a large nominal value to the money at risk in derivatives, but the real risk is exaggerated to the extent it is Madoff Money. Similar with debt. If there is a crash then a lot of this debt will not be repaid, but the basic physical Earth will be little effected.

I think where the real risk lies, and it is significant, is in the transition from the “system” we now have to some new “system” that likely has not been defined. That transition will be brought about by a crash, a loss of confidence in this confidence scheme we are no running. Once it crashes then the restart will be difficult because of trust issues.

A really big danger is in how to sustain global food shipments when you have a lack of a global money transfer system. When the food stops flowing then many, many will starve and be desperate.

At least that’s my fear. That’s how I see the danger unfolding. At that point some of the 1% need to pull a rabbit out of their hat and start a new and hopefully better system. Im thinking it won’t be quick or easy.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 10:06:35
by onlooker
I think you may have missed the point where Ralfy points out, that "Meanwhile, they use that wealth to buy what they believe are secure areas where they hope to ride out the effects of financial fallout, diminishing returns, and environmental collapse when all money (not just "Madoff money") vaporizes."

In any case, humanity has operated under the false assumption that we could continue to burden ever more the Environment with our economic and population growth. So, ultimately the limits of physics and Nature will impose themselves one way or the other. And our money will have no relevance to this process whatsoever.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 10:41:19
by Cog
We have not yet reached the limits of growth.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 11:10:00
by Newfie
Meanwhile, they use that wealth to buy what they believe are secure areas where they hope to ride out the effects of financial fallout, diminishing returns, and environmental collapse when all money (not just "Madoff money") vaporizes."


I didn’t miss it, I’ve DONE IT.

That doesn’t make the MADEOFF Money more real, it just point to the fact that the experts in it understand it is ephemeral. It makes my point.

They are all just riding the wave hoping to cash out before the wipe out. But putting a bit aside for when.

The bigger question is why haven’t all of us done it?

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 11:16:46
by onlooker
Newfie wrote:
Meanwhile, they use that wealth to buy what they believe are secure areas where they hope to ride out the effects of financial fallout, diminishing returns, and environmental collapse when all money (not just "Madoff money") vaporizes."


I didn’t miss it, I’ve DONE IT.

That doesn’t make the MADEOFF Money more real, it just point to the fact that the experts in it understand it is ephemeral. It makes my point.

They are all just riding the wave hoping to cash out before the wipe out. But putting a bit aside for when.

The bigger question is why haven’t all of us done it?

Yeah, and it seems the prevailing attitude is, that the Collapse will be pretty bad and it will be every man to himself

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 11:25:29
by Pops
Newfie wrote:The bigger question is why haven’t all of us done it?

Because capitalism's fundamental premise is competition.
There is no "all."

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 12:18:26
by Newfie
Irrelevant to the individual. It’s op to each one of us to make our own decisions, be personally responsible. By “all” I meant all of us here at PO.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 12:43:05
by Ibon
Why can't we just all stop fighting the inevitable and die with honor and humility and stop trying to outsmart that which cannot be conquered. For what? To live a few more days..........

I much prefer the here and now.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 12:54:12
by onlooker
Ibon wrote:Why can't we just all stop fighting the inevitable and die with honor and humility and stop trying to outsmart that which cannot be conquered. For what? To live a few more days..........

I much prefer the here and now.

I dare say because we are competitive creatures Ibon. And paradoxically death to some is seen as the ultimate defeat. :cry:

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 13:12:36
by Ibon
onlooker wrote:
Ibon wrote:Why can't we just all stop fighting the inevitable and die with honor and humility and stop trying to outsmart that which cannot be conquered. For what? To live a few more days..........

I much prefer the here and now.

I dare say because we are competitive creatures Ibon. And paradoxically death to some is seen as the ultimate defeat. :cry:


Chasing to extend horizontal linear time while sacrificing vertical depth of a richer spiritual life is not only a futile act but also missing out on life itself.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 15:37:39
by Newfie
Why must they be mutually exclusive?

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 17:25:36
by Ibon
Newfie wrote:Why must they be mutually exclusive?


That's a very good point. I am a bit guilty of creating a binary choice of something that should be integrated as you suggest.

It's a good question everyone should ask themselves in how well they are balancing both.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 19:49:50
by KaiserJeep
I would remind everyone that the US citizens on Welfare qualify in the 1% of the world. We forever seem to be forgetting that all of us PeakOil members are one percenters ourselves. Many members here are of the 0.1% class or better.

Personally, I think collapse began around 1800 and is getting noticeable now. Nothing is gonna happen suddenly, ever.

As one percenters, all of us have more options than 99% of the world. Either prepare for the future you believe in or don't, it is up to you.

I would point out that the most wealthy people on Earth have money that primarily exists as binary data in computers. There is little to sustain one in such wealth.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 20:05:35
by onlooker
Very evocative
"The machine does not care for the observances of solstices nor full moons, the bringing in of harvests nor the interring of the dead, the first flowering of hawthorn or the calving of the beasts. The machine gives no concern whether you have just fallen in love, or if you grieve, if the scent of blossoms on a spring day calls you to whimsy or the chill winds of winter summon you back to bed with your lover.
The machine celebrates in linear, burdensome ways: the beginning of work-days and the end of fiscal calendars, fourth-quarter earnings reports, and Black Friday sales. Nature is raw resources to it, as are the humans for whom the machine claims to exist. Neither is fêted nor celebrated, only extracted, oppressed, exploited and destroyed.
Separating humans from nature and the rituals which reminded us we are part of nature made it easier to turn us into machines ourselves, mere cogs, workers, and consumers in a vast order of capitalist misery. The few older celebrations with Pagan roots that survived this separation (Valentine’s Day, Christmas, Easter, Halloween) have been so sanitized by their imperialist Christian and consumerist overlays that they connect us not to nature’s rhythms but only to shopping malls and Amazon.com.
New Year’s Eve, however, despite being based not on any natural rhythm at all, has always seemed to me the most Pagan and anti-capitalist of holidays. The last day of the imperial calendar, the final day of its reign before the year begins again, New Year’s Eve bears with it a promise and a reminder: everything eventually ends."

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 31 Dec 2018, 21:17:59
by ralfy
Newfie wrote:
I didn’t miss it, I’ve DONE IT.

That doesn’t make the MADEOFF Money more real, it just point to the fact that the experts in it understand it is ephemeral. It makes my point.

They are all just riding the wave hoping to cash out before the wipe out. But putting a bit aside for when.

The bigger question is why haven’t all of us done it?


Most are not aware of peak oil, global warming, and the effects of increasing debt, or argue that there will be only one crisis or another (e.g., peak oil, but no global warming, or global warming "solves" peak oil, etc.), which is why they are not preparing (usually because they imagine one group or another will save humanity, including scientists working on "game changers," some world government regulating everything, and so on). The rich, meanwhile, imagine that collapse will be temporary (which is likely if one believes that several of these crises are simply above-ground problems, i.e., due to lack of political will, etc.), which is why they imagine that they can stay in secure areas with stockpiles. But given long-term collapse and increasing desperation, there will likely be no such places.

Ultimately, one begins to realize that preparing does not involve large amounts of money to buy land and to stockpile but learning skills needed to sustain life given a long-term collapse. They may include having to move around when various areas are affected by conflict, environmental damage, epidemics, etc.