Page 16 of 16
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 09:41:06by Subjectivist
Ibon wrote:Newfie wrote:Ibon,
My only disagreement with your above posting is you cast it entirely in light of conservatives. The liberals own their fair share of this analysis. Note: not criticism, analysis. The two extremes are ripple gangers, each is reacting to pressures, they just whine about different injustices.
I have seen intolerance, arrogance and disdain on the left. Self entitlement. But the left in the US anyway is not authoritarian and hasn't been to my knowledge. Or?
Authoritariansm takes many forms. When regulations pass through bureacracies unoppossed that limit more and more freedoms they are just as unwelcome as any other unjust law enforcd by gun toting government employees.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 09:49:35by Cog
Given the accelerated efforts to ban guns of all kinds in California, it's hard not to see that as left authoritarianism.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 11:09:07by Ibon
OK noted on the last couple of posts. One mans authoritarianism is another mans right. Like guns and abortion. Don't restrict my access to a gun and don't restrict my access to an abortion. Pure libertarian ism actually.
Perhaps more relevant to this site I would pose a question which really should not have a partisan position.
Let's assume the predicted consequences of peak oil and climate change start really kicking in. To maintain social stability the government will increasingly have to regulate fuel consumption and revamp building zones etc. Restrict water usage another example. Even prohibit or tax luxury consumption items like jet skis. You guys could add many other examples but you get the point.
How are we going to move from where we are today viewing government regulations as an impingement to individual freedom (or even as fascism) and get to a point where as citizens we embrace regulations as part of the common good to keep some semblance of resiliency.
Are we going to see an epic battle unfolding culturally around this along partisan lines or do you see the draconian nature of the consequences mentioned acting as a force to unify?
I think we are within the window of a decade or two where this question needs to be addressed not as theory but as pragmatic planning.
Opinions?
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 12:09:40by Cog
A free man doesn't love government or regulation. He only puts up with it to the extent that anarchy does not reign.
But I would not expect a socialist at heart to understand freedom.
But not to worry Governor Newsom in California is going to create free health care for all including illegals. I'm just here to watch the comedy and misery that will create.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 12:30:22by evilgenius
It's an interesting question about gas taxes and whether they will go up in the US as a result of scarcity. It seems to me that every time there is a run up in the price of gas someone calls for gas taxes to go down. I think that's related to the "God given right" crowd. Logically, you would expect gas taxes to go up, so as to restrict use and provide a form of rationing. For people who drive gas powered vehicles for a living the mileage deduction would simply go up. Those drivers would pay the same at the pump, but they would pay less tax (income and SS) as the price went up to compensate. Everybody would pay more, but people who drive for a living would still be able to afford to work. There might be a greater incentive to drive gas powered vehicles for a living up to a certain point, past which there would be an incentive to go alternative. The government would, of course, have to make certain that the two deduction rates were not too far apart, so as to prevent the fall to using alternatives from ushering in too great a discrepancy with taxes so that it prevented alternative adoption.
The whole idea of gas taxes as a means to pay for roads also comes up. As more alternative means of powering vehicles comes along there is less money taken from gas taxes to pay for roads. In the UK, where no thumb drive is safe in the hands of a government worker, there is a lot of talk about using GPS to track people, and make them pay per mile. Being a more socialist system there is more acceptance of an idea like that, which comes with what is practically an invitation to invade privacy. There isn't a push back based upon the fact that cars have odometers which can be checked yearly, or at some sensible interval. I guess there isn't because the powers that be also want to charge for things like congestion, and a GPS system would work for that too. They trade privacy for saving a little money. I'd say that was just socialist, but the idea has also been floated in the US, and hasn't had that sort of thing said there to refute it either.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 12:34:41by KaiserJeep
I think the whole premise that peak oil and climate change will force culture to change is silly. The means of restricting consumption and ensuring fair distribution of limited supplies of anything is built into the free marketplace. If gasoline or diesel passes $10/gallon, we won't consume as much, and even less when it passes $20/gallon. If it costs you $1000/month to heat your home, you will move into the basement which can be heated for $200/month. If electricity is $1/kWh, you will consume less electricity.
Those at the top of the income ladder will not care. Those at the bottom will require more government assistance than they presently do. The Middle Class will adapt, and continue to shrink.
Expensive energy magnifies the difference between affluence and poverty, making everything cost more. But we will react by painfully adapting every aspect of our infrastructure to use less energy. I have said more than once that we possess the technology to have lifestyles comparable to today while consuming 1/6th the energy. I do believe that.
There is NOTHING about hardship that need result in additional powers of government. The US Culture did not change as a result of WW2, for example - after years of hardship, American life resumed with a vengence. The US Constitution forbids the government from giving itself more power over people. The document is not going away.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 14:24:09by Cog
It continues to amaze me how reasonably intelligent people can slobber the knobs of government bureaucracy so thoroughly.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 14:47:47by Ibon
Cog wrote:It continues to amaze me how reasonably intelligent people can slobber the knobs of government bureaucracy so thoroughly.
10 years living in Switzerland. 5 years in Canada. 3 years in the Philippines. 4 years in Thailand. 8 years in Panama. It did something to me, I guess I am no longer a true red blooded American.
In 1980's while living in Switzerland there was a folks referendum (you know, direct democracy) about increasing gasoline tax to finance a major investment on public transportation. The overwhelming majority of Swiss citizens voted yes to 7 cents per liter (came out to about 25 cents per gallon) tax to support this initiative. It was passed.
That same decade the state of Florida put on the state ballot a 1 penny per gallon tax increase on gasoline to help finance Everglades restoration and restoring the water shed. The citizens overwhelmingly voted it down.
Have you guys followed the news recently in Florida about the red tide blooms on both coasts?
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 29 Aug 2018, 15:27:26by KaiserJeep
Ibon, those are simply symptoms of overpopulation. Just as a rising atmospheric carbon dioxide content is a symptom of overpopulation. Just as is the sea water infiltrating the city of Miami. Just as is the sinkholes appearing all over the state, caused by overpumping deep water wells. The symptoms go on and on, there is no end to them.
The root cause is too many people. The cure is having most of them die. It's sad. It's going to be ugly. There is no help for it aside from finding new places off planet to live. Even that saves the species, not the people on the planet.
If the USA wants to preserve our way of life, we have to experience the hardships and the horrors, to give us motive. Then we have to close our borders and reinvent the country's infrastructure away from increrasingly expensive fossil fuels.
It's not hard to understand. It will be hard to do. Right now, we can't even get most people to correctly identify the real problem.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Thu 30 Aug 2018, 00:24:15by careinke
Cog wrote:A free man doesn't love government or regulation. He only puts up with it to the extent that anarchy does not reign.
But I would not expect a socialist at heart to understand freedom.
But not to worry Governor Newsom in California is going to create free health care for all including illegals. I'm just here to watch the comedy and misery that will create.
I think you are confusing Anarchy with Chaos. As a matter of fact Cog, a lot of your beliefs align perfectly present day anarchy thinking, especially Anarcho-capitalists.
Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, just no rulers.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Thu 30 Aug 2018, 11:51:56by Plantagenet
KaiserJeep wrote:If the USA wants to preserve our way of life, we have to experience the hardships and the horrors, to give us motive. Then we have to close our borders and reinvent the country's infrastructure away from increrasingly expensive fossil fuels.
It's not hard to understand. It will be hard to do. Right now, we can't even get most people to correctly identify the real problem.
Exactly right.
The Ds think that allowing more and more illegal immigrants into the country will benefit them at the polls, and so their policies are designed to encourage more illegal immigration. The Ds have mostly done this quietly in the past, but increasingly they are saying it out loud. For instance the new D nominee for governor of Florida wants to dismantle ICE---thats his campaign platform. That would mean giving up on all law enforcement and all removal of illegal immigrants within the US.
And amazingly, millions of Ds support this kind of nonsense.
Cheers!
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Fri 26 May 2023, 14:25:50by Tanada
Woke Fascism
A movement which attempts to enforce 'woke' views upon others via the use of intimidation, demonstrations, violence, shaming, cancelling, and other methods to silence discussion and dissent. Like other fascist movements the woke movement is intolerant of dissent and dismissive of actual facts and data. Like the National Socialist movement of pre-war Germany Woke Fascism identifies and oppressor group as the source of 'problems'. Similarly the use intimidation to prevent dissent and rational discussion drives an active move to silence free speech and contrary opinions, facts, and analyses.
Example: "Mike displayed his woke fascism when he organized a 'cancellation' of someone who disagreed with him."
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Sun 28 May 2023, 21:37:03by Newfie
Yeah, parallels abound.
Not MY President, FBI attempted blackmail, eventually led to Jam 6.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Mon 29 May 2023, 03:05:34by careinke
Newfie wrote:Yeah, parallels abound.
Not MY President, FBI attempted blackmail, eventually led to Jam 6.
Sounds like Treason to me.
Peace
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Mon 29 May 2023, 21:07:43by ralfy
Interesting thing about Switzerland: it essentially fulfills the Second Amendment through mandatory service.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 31 May 2023, 18:31:18by yellowcanoe
ralfy wrote:Interesting thing about Switzerland: it essentially fulfills the Second Amendment through mandatory service.
Also interesting that Switzerland doesn't appear to have a mass shooting problem despite the fact that a large number of military reservests are storing a military grade rifle in their home. The high shooting rate in the US is a function of societal issues and is not simply a function of the widespread availability of guns.
Re: THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3
Posted:
Wed 31 May 2023, 20:32:13by ralfy
yellowcanoe wrote:Also interesting that Switzerland doesn't appear to have a mass shooting problem despite the fact that a large number of military reservests are storing a military grade rifle in their home. The high shooting rate in the US is a function of societal issues and is not simply a function of the widespread availability of guns.
From what I read, mandatory service involves a lot of training, especially for safety, and it spreads even among those not taking military service. That is, they have a lot of ownership but also a lot of regulations.