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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 12

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 18:19:12

Doly wrote:What I've always wondered about electric vehicles is: are they really more energy-efficient, as it's been claimed? As in, when you count the energy needed (probably fossil fuels) to generate the electricity, aren't you using up more energy overall? Peak oil and peak gas are supposed to happen close to each other anyway, and coal is certainly not a popular fuel for power stations because of climate change.


Great Question----You've put your finger right on a big problem with EVs. Its something the dishonest EV fanbois won't admit, but the data is very clear on this subject.

And the second big problem is that carbon footprint of an EV is about 70% LARGER then that of of a comparable ICE car to start with because mining and refining and building the Li-battery system releases almost as much CO2 as building the car itself. Again dishonest EV fanbois lie about this, but its clearly true.

So EVs start way behind ICE cars when it comes to their carbon footprint. Now if that EV is powered 100% by solar cells or windmills or nukes or geothermal in a few years the ICE car will surpass it in carbon emissions, and over the lifetime of the car and its way better for the climate to be driving an EV if you've got carbon-free power to put in it.

BUT, if the EV is fueled by what are called "carbon-intensive" power plants, like coal-fired electrical power plant, then the EV never catches up and is actually equal or even worse then an ICE car.

AND, when you look at global electrical generation, there are a heck of a lot of coal-fired and NG-fired power plants. For instance, most of the world's EVs are in China and run on coal-fired power.....same thing in INDIA---mostly coal-fired power. Same thing in parts of Europe and the USA....lots of coal-fired power plants. AND same thing through much of the 3rd world.

Image
when you look at electrical generation systems, there are a heck of a lot of coal-fired and NG-fired power plants out there.....and they emit a lot of CO2.

Personally, I think EVs are great technology......but it can get better. And to maximize the benefits of EVs we need to decarbonize the electrical power grid.....and thats a hard thing to do.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 20:18:25

Plantagenet wrote:
Doly wrote:What I've always wondered about electric vehicles is: are they really more energy-efficient, as it's been claimed? As in, when you count the energy needed (probably fossil fuels) to generate the electricity, aren't you using up more energy overall? Peak oil and peak gas are supposed to happen close to each other anyway, and coal is certainly not a popular fuel for power stations because of climate change.


Great Question----You've put your finger right on a big problem with EVs. Its something the dishonest EV fanbois won't admit, but the data is very clear on this subject.


As a claimed EV owner, are you a dishonest fanboy/girl about yours?

How do you charge yours at the cabin again? You seem to be very vague about why you even bought yours in the first place? :)

Plantagenet wrote:Personally, I think EVs are great technology......but it can get better.


Why didn't you wait a little longer to get yours then? Why did you settle for less better now?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 30 Nov 2021, 21:35:16

AdamB wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Personally, I think EVs are great technology......but it can get better.

Why didn't you wait a little longer to get yours then? Why did you settle for less better now?


I would think the answer to that is obvious. We all have to live in the real world. That means using the technology that is actually available now.

Now let me ask you a question.

What state do you live in?

Check out the map of the USA in my post above showing the amount of CO2 released in various regions of the USA as a consequence of burning coal to generate electricity.

The central USA is the a region of the USA that relies most heavily on coal to generate electricity, according to the map I posted.

Is that where you live?

Thanks in advance for a courteous reply to my question.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 01 Dec 2021, 00:51:49

Plantagenet wrote:
AdamB wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Personally, I think EVs are great technology......but it can get better.

Why didn't you wait a little longer to get yours then? Why did you settle for less better now?


I would think the answer to that is obvious. We all have to live in the real world. That means using the technology that is actually available now.


Quite true. So what EV did you purchase to avoid the fires you are fascinated with? Certainly my Leaf doesn't have much of a reputation for spontaneous combustion....did you get one that does?

Plantagenet wrote:
Now let me ask you a question.

What state do you live in?


Unlike those terrified of answering questions, I trend loquacious. :) I live in Colorado.

Plantagenet wrote:The central USA is the a region of the USA that relies most heavily on coal to generate electricity, according to the map I posted.
Is that where you live?
Thanks in advance for a courteous reply to my question.
Cheers!


My electricity mix begins with about 40% of my total kWh coming from the panels on the roof of the garage. The other 60% is, and I'm quoting not from a generic central USA map, but the distribution % I get directly from my utility webpage for my state in particular, 37% renewable (wind and solar), 37% natural gas, and 26% coal. Which, when reconfigured for my panels contribution, means that my EVs are fueled from, and house of run off of, 62% renewables, 22% natural gas and 16% coal.

The breakdown strikes me as reasonably weighted against coal, but I didn't buy my EV because of altruism related to climate change any more than those who globe trot. I got mine because they are cheap to run, and no longer require me to pay money to the jihadi support stations most of the rest of the US is forced to visit at regular intervals.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 01 Dec 2021, 01:14:04

AdamB wrote:I didn't buy my EV because of altruism related to climate change .... I got mine because they are cheap to run, and no longer require me to pay money to the jihadi support stations most of the rest of the US is forced to visit at regular intervals.


Fair enough.

Although I hope you aren't trying claim some kind of moral high ground over "most of the rest of the US" because you aren't paying money to "jihadi support stations"....

Its true that when you bought your EV you avoided buying gas and sending money to the middle east....but instead you bought lithium batteries and you sent your money straight to the Chinese Communist Party.

Because China ....where a million Uyghurs are held in concentration camps.....is where Tesla gets its lithium batteries from.

Another classic example of TNSTAAFL

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 01 Dec 2021, 09:58:57

Plantagenet wrote:
AdamB wrote:I didn't buy my EV because of altruism related to climate change .... I got mine because they are cheap to run, and no longer require me to pay money to the jihadi support stations most of the rest of the US is forced to visit at regular intervals.


Fair enough.

Although I hope you aren't trying claim some kind of moral high ground over "most of the rest of the US" because you aren't paying money to "jihadi support stations"....


Not a shred of moral superiority. Only a nice economic advantage in the family budget, and a hedge against oft-claimed but rarely seen peak oil effects.

Plantagenet wrote:Its true that when you bought your EV you avoided buying gas and sending money to the middle east....but instead you bought lithium batteries and you sent your money straight to the Chinese Communist Party.


It didn't stop you from buying your EV, why would it bother me? The entire developed world subsidizes the ChiComs, the Forbidden City is probably on your travel list, if you haven't been there already.

And tell us a bit about your ChiCom battery purchase, I answered your questions straight up, how does your EV work in the weather in Alaska? Do you charge it at the cabin or at work? What precautions have you taken to make sure your fear of spontaneous combustion doesn't happen?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 01 Dec 2021, 15:11:50

AdamB wrote:... the Forbidden City is probably on your travel list, if you haven't been there already.


I've been twice, actually. Its turned into kind of a tourist disneyland now with organized tours and thousands of visitors but the first time I went....shortly after the Tienamien square massacre---- it was basically abandoned because the Chinese communists didn't know what to do with it, and I happy wandered around the forbidden city by myself. The buildings and furnishings (what was left after the site was stripped) are incredible. I went everywhere for hours and saw almost no one there. Its all different now.

Image
The Forbidden City in China is a spectacular historic site....don't miss it if you are ever in Beijing

AdamB wrote:What precautions have you taken to make sure your fear of spontaneous combustion doesn't happen?


I don't have "fear of spontaneous combustion" but I'm certainly aware that it is a problem in EVs. So is NHTSA who is conducting multiple investigations into EV battery fires right now.

You have to face facts, Adam. Lithium batteries have a long and well documented history of spontaneously bursting into flames. And lithium batteries are the power source for EVs.....right?

This has occurred in everything from cell phones to EVs. I assume you've never been on airplane or used the post office because they both have restrictions on shipping lithium batteries because of this history of spontaneous combustion. At least one airplane crash has been attired to an lithium battery fire during flight. I don't know how you could have missed all the the stories about this long standing problem.

And when it comes to EVs, there have been many many model recalls because of the multiple incidences of spontaneous combustion in their lithium battery systems. Some EV manufactures have even issued warnings not to park their EVs in garages or even near houses because they may explode into flames at any moment.

This problem also affects Teslas --- most recently a Tesla parked in a guys garage and charging up suddenly combusted a couple of weeks and destroyed the car, the garage, and burned down the entire house. I posted a link about this new story a bit higher in the thread.

A person has to be very poorly informed not to acknowledge this reality, IMHO. I shopped carefully before I bought my EV, but this problem seems to be endemic in lithium batteries and it affects every single kind of EV there is.

Image
A Tesla was caught on film undergoing spontaneous combustion in a parking garage a couple of years ago in China...watch this TESLA GO BOOM! due to spontaneous combustion of the EV battery system

PS: I'm willing to discuss the thread topics with you, Adam, but I have no interest in discussing my personal vehicles with you because this whole subject seems to unhinge you. A month ago for no reason you started blasting me in post after post and calling me a stupid childish names. Thats been going on for weeks-----it is dumb and unneccesary. You toned it down in the last couple of days. Congrats!

May I suggest that we just discuss the thread topics in the future and avoid the childish personal attacks in the future.. They are just a waste of time

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 02 Dec 2021, 00:27:52

Plantagenet wrote:
AdamB wrote:... the Forbidden City is probably on your travel list, if you haven't been there already.


I've been twice, actually. Its turned into kind of a tourist disneyland now with organized tours and thousands of visitors but the first time I went....shortly after the Tienamien square massacre---- it was basically abandoned because the Chinese communists didn't know what to do with it, and I happy wandered around the forbidden city by myself.


So why would you think anyone else has any more moral concern with ChiCom batteries when you appear to be perfectly happy with supporting them without a quam?

Plantagenet wrote:
AdamB wrote:What precautions have you taken to make sure your fear of spontaneous combustion doesn't happen?


I don't have "fear of spontaneous combustion" but I'm certainly aware that it is a problem in EVs. So is NHTSA who is conducting multiple investigations into EV battery fires right now.


Go you bought an EV with this problem did you? And yours is SPECIAL and this won't happen to it? :)

Plantagenet wrote:PS: I'm willing to discuss the thread topics with you, Adam, but I have no interest in discussing my personal vehicles with you because this whole subject seems to unhinge you.


I don't believe you Plant. You might be willing to continue trolling as long as folks go along with it, but while an occasionally amusing troll, and obviously intelligient, I find trolls who need to lie to keep the game going repulsive. You were getting beaten with the EV experience argument versus your nonstop biased complaining. So you attempted to shut down that angle of attack. And were then trapped in the classic, once a liar, gotta keep lying scenario. That one step too far was all it took, and afterwards you just couldn't keep it up. Smacks of at least a hint of guilt over having done it, which is a good thing I suppose.

Don't know about what they teach scientist trolls in Alaska, but I've learned more by being wrong, figuring out why, and publishing the entire mess than being taught to duck and cover and hide from an oopsy. Even here.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 02 Dec 2021, 18:49:30

EVs are a lame joke to me, they are like a segway or a personal drone, just some techie dream that should never have left the concept stage. Oh I don't mean niche use ones, little cars to run around the CBD of cities or around amusement parks like disney land, that makes good sense, like the Electric forklifts they use in enclosed environments. But not for convention vehicles that must duke it out in normal city/highway landscapes. That's just pushing the envelope way too far.

The truth is the batteries make them too expensive for the average consumer, and the battery lifespan makes them next to worthless after a decade or less. Hardly sustainable is it? Which was the whole point of them in the first place. Then there is the range, it's appalling! A long range Tesla has 3/4 of a ton of battery pack and then where do you charge it when you have driven off into the countryside. They are like driving a car with a slowly leaking tire, the battery range issue is always in the back of your mind. "Where will I charge?" "How long will it take?" Ok for the inner city sure, or a run to the local beach, but not much else.

So many otherwise intelligent people have been sucked into this, just as they were into the Segway fantasy. It just goes to show the power of media advertising, especially when the government gets behind the idea. Now that should be a big Red Flag right there. We all know Government is corrupt, selling its influence to the highest bidder, hell they can't even keep the countries road infrastructure in decent order! Then they come along and subsidize these EV's and people point to that as a positive. It's a big contrary indicator in my mind.

Anyway, give it another decade, the reality will come home to roost, just as it is with the home solar push by governments. Here they recently reduced the Solar feed in Tariff by 25%, across the board. Why? Why do this when they are promoting a sustainable future? Because they know home solar isn't the solution to the elimination of coal powered electricity that's why. It suffers from the same constraints as the EVs, relatively short lifespan and expensive up front costs, combined with the fact it doesn't mesh well with the grid as it stands.

The explanation of this would take a thread or two in itself but the major cost of the grid is servicing it and cheap home solar exacerbates this servicing because it adds little revenue to the process at decent input tariffs. Coal pencils in at about 10 cents a kWh and out of that all the parasites up and down the food chain want their cut. I'm surprised home solar export is at 8 cents, there is nothing in that for the corporations that maintain the grid. Going off grid is little better if at all since the upfront costs there are horrendous for the average home. Down here it's $12,000 to $15,000 for a Tesla powerwall installation, and that on top of the cost of the panels inverter and installation. If the government wasn't giving away the panels as a subsidy the installs would have fallen off a cliff long ago.

There is no way out, no magic fixes. We are headed for much higher energy costs in the future for all our needs, and investing 70k in a car like a tesla is just piss*ng your wealth down the toilet as well as adding to the destruction of the planet..
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 09:58:52

theluckycountry wrote:EVs are a lame joke to me, they are like a segway or a personal drone, just some techie dream that should never have left the concept stage. Oh I don't mean niche use ones, little cars to run around the CBD of cities or around amusement parks like disney land, that makes good sense, like the Electric forklifts they use in enclosed environments. But not for convention vehicles that must duke it out in normal city/highway landscapes. That's just pushing the envelope way too far.


As another rider of big fast motorcycles I agree with you. But then I went and bought a couple and it turns out that they aren't any different from ICE powered machines at the end of the day, usually with a hefty acceleration advantage over ICE machines. And any motorcyclist familiar with big, powerful two wheelers knows, acceleration advantages are quite nice.

Turns out, the way you sell an EV is have someone drive one. After that, it becomes difficult to pretend that their ability to be all zippy zoomy isn't both fun, and of course will save you some $$.

theluckycountry wrote:The truth is the batteries make them too expensive for the average consumer, and the battery lifespan makes them next to worthless after a decade or less.


One of mine is 7 years old, the other 6. Another month, and it'll be 8 and 7. One was $26K, the other $8k. The batteries didn't make them any more expensive than if I had bought straight up ICE machines. Maybe things are different down under?

theluckycountry wrote: "Where will I charge?" "How long will it take?" Ok for the inner city sure, or a run to the local beach, but not much else.


The wife's boss has a Tesla S. She drives it across the country. Maybe your country isn't so lucky after all, if you can't find modern fueling infrastructure?

theluckycountry wrote:There is no way out, no magic fixes. We are headed for much higher energy costs in the future for all our needs, and investing 70k in a car like a tesla is just piss*ng your wealth down the toilet as well as adding to the destruction of the planet..


Way out of what? After 6 peak oils this century, are you beating that drum, or some other doomer porn idea? And higher energy costs are exactly why I've got 2 EVs now, because DAMN are they cheaper on running costs. Besides, someone driving big fast foreign motorcycles like you can afford higher energy costs, so why are you whining about something that won't bother you in the least?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Doly » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 13:43:07

After 6 peak oils this century, are you beating that drum, or some other doomer porn idea?


Winston Churchill started his history of the First World War explaining how, when he worried about the Balkans crisis, an older diplomat told him, with all the weight of his experience, that nothing ever happens in these diplomatic crises.

Point being, just because people see a problem coming for a long time and get the timing somewhat wrong, it doesn't mean that the problem was not, in actual fact, coming.

Discussing whether EVs are a good solution to peak oil is a fair discussion in a peak oil discussion board, I would think. Different people may disagree, but if you don't think peak oil is an actual issue, you better explain why you reckon that people are going to transition to a different energy source on time and without any major hitches, rather than giving a sweeping generic attack that quite frankly, lowers quite badly the level of the discussion to just feelings not based on any facts.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 15:45:23

Some call the first world war the first oil war. It's no coincidence perhaps that those rich oil fields in the old ottoman empire were seized by Britain after WWI, just at the time it was converting it's fleets from coal to oil. Leading up to the war Churchill was a huge advocate of this transition. A young man of vision for sure.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby gollum » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:04:10

theluckycountry wrote:Some call the first world war the first oil war. It's no coincidence perhaps that those rich oil fields in the old ottoman empire were seized by Britain after WWII, just at the time it was converting it's fleets from coal to oil. Leading up to the war Church hill was a huge advocate of this transition. A young man of vision for sure.



I think all wars are over some form of resources so I expect a lot more of them during this century.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:08:15

The US has followed the old british empire's war path ever since WWII hasn't it. Death Taxes and War, the three things you can count on. I just hope my nest up in the hills is far enough removed when the fighting starts.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:52:01

theluckycountry wrote:The US has followed the old british empire's war path ever since WWII hasn't it. Death Taxes and War, the three things you can count on. I just hope my nest up in the hills is far enough removed when the fighting starts.


If you are hiding in the hills, what will you do with your "spoiled First Worlder with more money to spend than sense" motorcycle? Hard to pretend to be a doomer when enjoying overpriced, make no sense in Amish country with no roads Australia, motorcycles isn't it?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby gollum » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 17:35:24

A motorcycle seems like a decent transportation option for hiding in the hills, especially if you can set it up to run on ethanol or better yet an electric bike powered by solar panels.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 19:32:57

gollum wrote:A motorcycle seems like a decent transportation option for hiding in the hills, especially if you can set it up to run on ethanol or better yet an electric bike powered by solar panels.

Yes I think electric bikes and motorcycles may well become mainstays of future transportation with solar panels or wind turbines providing the power.
Winter driving and hauling the groceries etc. will require heavier vehicles of course but your a short commute in good weather could be done cheaper on a bike or tricycle.
The question becomes can you afford to have both and change plans and modes based on the weather. Today few would put up with that daily question but in an energy short future I think our population will adapt as needed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 03 Dec 2021, 21:45:51

gollum wrote:A motorcycle seems like a decent transportation option for hiding in the hills, especially if you can set it up to run on ethanol or better yet an electric bike powered by solar panels.


150+ HP lightweight hyperbikes aren't usually for riding in the hills, more like doing, you know, stuff like they were built for. Assuming luckycountry isn't just a poser street rider of course.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 04 Dec 2021, 09:19:52

Well the light EVs will of course be adapted for their new jobs and be quite unlike any present vehicle. Think glorified golf cart with a ranges of fifty to a hundred miles with enough trunk space for a weeks groceries. Also electric tricycles with enough basket space between the rear wheels for a couple of reusable shopping bags with a windshield and canopy to keep the rider out of the weather.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 04 Dec 2021, 10:16:33

vtsnowedin wrote:Well the light EVs will of course be adapted for their new jobs and be quite unlike any present vehicle. Think glorified golf cart with a ranges of fifty to a hundred miles with enough trunk space for a weeks groceries.


Those have been around for years. Mine is called a Nissan Leaf. 70 miles of range, TWO weeks of groceries if I want to fill the back seat as well. Used it was pretty cheap to boot. That was before the supply chain problems of course, the dealership I bought it from offered to buy it back for what I paid for it. That got me curious, so I checked out its equivalents in real time and they are now $4G's higher than what I paid for mine, for the same age, mileage, amenities. And where there were like dozens of the things back in January in a major metropolitan corridor, there are like 5 now.
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