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Liamj wrote:Haven't either, sorry Graeme, but am interested, if only as a mobile energy storage. I think even the transport use will ultimately play second fiddle to that function. Aren't all other energy storages less postpeak friendly, due to high technology, materials or infrastructure requirements?

Thats a tough one. Can't answer. Ask Amory Lovins.

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid490.php

Graeme

Hardly anything we do is zero pollution. How about the energy needed to compress the air?

One big problem with anything that needs electric to power to compress air, is that if a significant number of people switched, it would put the grid down.

As we have said before, any personalised transport is going to find it difficult to survive peak oil because of its uncontrolled nature of fuel consumption. It's a great thing to have but by its nature energy inefficient because it promotes unwarranted, uncontrolled trips. This a point people very often don't 'get', but think it's the future because it's personal and convenient. It doesn't take the wider issues on board.

Compressed air as an energy carrier has the advantage of simplicity (except for the high pressure tanks) but IIRC the efficiency is lousy, less than 50%. Batteries can do much better but OTOH need less common and more energy intensive materials. What could be more readily available than steel and air? Problem is that air tends to heat up as you compress it and lots of energy is thrown away. Could find some niche uses though.

Ta info all (tho not particularly enamoured of Lovins).

Can i ask Antimatter, how exactly is the efficiency low? I'd like to see (but don't realistically expect) a quantitative study of cost/effort of accessing, extracting, refining & transporting other fuels, + nonrenewable premium, + ICE pollution costs.
Sure they wont be ready-any-time for go-anywhere travel, but thats not how i'm imaging their use anyway.

What are the various ways air pressure could be created to 'fuel' these?
1.Solar PV or Wind gen. + electric air pump : particularly heavy duty pump reqd? Could you run one off flexible PVs on car, even if full recharge takes days?
2.Hydro ram pump : if a height&volume of water can pump water it surely can pump air?
3.Mechanically : does a device/product exist that could sum variable mechanical inputs (e.g. beast of burden, bikes in series) to pressurise air?

What i like is the simplicity & self-contained-ness of pressurised air.. no global supply lines, no toxic waste, no energy'prize' to fight over, no exotic materials or manufacturing processes(?) reqd.
What skilled trade works with pressurised air? Boilermakers?

There was a thread about air cars earlier:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic2645-0-asc-15.html

Wade past the crap from dontworryaboutpeakoil lol and look for the posts by devil and pilferage at the bottom. Efficiency seems pretty poor. If the efficiency was higher it would be a good energy carrier. You could probably use a compressor powered by just about anything but it needs to be able to go to high pressures and probably won't work well unless turned over slowly by an animal etc. I'd imagine a 300 bar capable compressor would be quite a complex peice of machinery.

Personally, I am skeptical about this product ever coming to market any time soon. I have done quite a bit of research on it because it sounds like a great vehicle for the future and potential investment but the vehicle does not get the published range on a 220V charge and the company has not made any significant progress in its development because of lack of funds.

The company has run out of money for further improvements so its in a current stalemate. Unfortunately greed is part of the problem for the developers. The way the company is trying to raise money to finish development of the vehicle will probably take lots of time (done through licensing to build the product in territories). Who wants to put tons of capital into something that you are going to get a small piece of the pie yet incur lots of risk.

The developers are not willing to go to public markets either for revenue because they want to maximize their potential returns.

It frankly sucks if another potentially useful technology is being held up due to financial wranglings.

I did some fairly extensive research on compressed air cars a couple of years ago. There are a couple of significant pluses to the system.

"Filling stations" can run off the electric power grid, and by using surge tanks, can take advantage of intermittent power sources such as wind.

"Recharge time" at a filling station is about as fast as the time needed to fill up with gasoline, i.e. significantly faster than recharging the batteries on an electric vehicle.

The technology is inherently simple and achievable now, which can't be said for hydrogen and automotive fuel cells.

No toxic materials to dispose of, unlike batteries in electric vehicles.

The power storage capabilities of a vehicle do not decline quickly, unlike batteries which normally have to be replaced every five years.

From what I read, these things were in beta-test mode and the Mexico City taxi service had a standing order for a decent number of them. Some were reported already operating in that capacity.

Antimatter wrote:There was a thread about air cars earlier:

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic2645-0-asc-15.html

Wade past the crap from dontworryaboutpeakoil lol and look for the posts by devil and pilferage at the bottom. Efficiency seems pretty poor. If the efficiency was higher it would be a good energy carrier. You could probably use a compressor powered by just about anything but it needs to be able to go to high pressures and probably won't work well unless turned over slowly by an animal etc. I'd imagine a 300 bar capable compressor would be quite a complex peice of machinery.

Wow, did that ever cool me down. thanks.
So ballpark best efficiency 15%, & not insignificant devices to do the 'heavy lifting' of pressurising the air.
Any other runners/potential manufacturers in the market, JBinKC?

I'd still prob buy one, even if had only top speed of 60kmh & range of 120km, IF refueling capital could be owned/localised. When not refueling car, power gen could run rock concerts (no i haven't done any sums on that)

For some reason air cars keep coming up in topics, even though their energy efficiency is terrible.

There are other problems also, like the heat from compressing the air, and the fact that the storage tanks can drop very low in temperature when you take the air back out, which can cause icing.

check this out is the future now? www.starrotor.com

t wrote:check this out is the future now? www.starrotor.com

This device, if it were as good as is claimed, would be demonstrated by now. Their latest update:

In September of 2003 final assembly of the prototype StarRotor compressor was completed. The prototype is a 100hp compressor based on the StarRotor technology.

They have turned the compressor part of their engine at 100 rpm from an electric motor and, 18 months later, have no further news to impart. Nice!

Wake me up when they have an engine turning with their stated characteristics!!!

(Just a little detail - I noticed someone posted a press release about the air car, that's why I wanned to add some quick remark.)

Big advantages of the air car over battery or hydrogen powered vehicles are:

-no need for polluting materials as in the electrolytes of batteries (zinc, lead, nickel etc), reducing one of the world's most dirty forms of waste
-extremely simple and durable
-very fast recharge, compared to batteries (2-3 minutes at a gas station) - pretty much like filling her up with gasoline
-no need for expensive fuel cells (which most often, up till now, require platinum or other expensive materials for their catalysts or electrolyte membranes)
-no need for an entirely new infrastructure (as in hydrogen, or zinc-air batteries)

Compressed air may well be a cheap, simple and viable form of energy for basic transport needs.

Any skeptics of the concept?

(A big disadvantage for some: it was invented by a Frenchie )

Energy loss from compressing air. Too much energy goes into compressing than you get out. Multi-stage compressors help, but not enough. Range will also be too limited.

ArimoDave

Been discussed before. You only like it because it's French Lorenzo.

.

Air Car Caught in Turbulence

"But at MDI's grudging admission, the prototypes do not yet live up to their promised levels of performance. In fact, in the only published road test to date, one of the cars traveled a little over seven kilometers (4.5 miles) on a full tank of air."

The prototype they built supposedly
-weighed ~400kg more
-didn't incorporate the mechanical regenerative braking,
-didn't have an engine cut out at stops
-the engine itself wasn't what they intend to place in the vehicles
-heavier steel air tanks with less capacity
-inefficient engine/transmission position
etc...

http://www.theaircar.com/tests.html

So, it seems like they cobbled together a less than functional prototype. If they're correct about how much of an efficiency increase we'll see in the production model, then these things will probably be wildly successful.
If not, we still have bicycles!

I think it is the best idea there is.

Air compresion can be made anywhere with electricity. And electricity won't be that big problem if you combine nuclair and wind.

Why I think the industry doesn't like it. You can't sell that easy air compression. Everybody would be able to start in own aircompresion gas station without paying company's like BP, shell .... So they would lose enormes control. Thats why they realy would like hydrogen. They can control hydrogen... You need feul cells and the hydrogen. Not everybody can make that.

Thats why there is relative no investment in R&D for the Air option... While I think it would be te best option!

Just look out how many company's are busy with the air R&D and how many with Hydrogen.

I think you're spot on, Enquest.

The air car does not need a middle-man technology that can be controlled by big corporations. That's why it's such a threatening technology.

lorenzo wrote:I think you're spot on, Enquest.

The air car does not need a middle-man technology that can be controlled by big corporations. That's why it's such a threatening technology.

General Motors, Toyota and all the rest would be happy to sell you a car that runs on compressed air if it was a viable technology. The reason they are looking in other directions is because its not.

Is there anything that could be done with a compressed air car that couldn't be done with a battery car? Are air cars faster, cheaper, more efficient or have longer range than battery electric cars?