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Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 11:01:31by tita
And if the Force in Star Wars was in fact this ZPE ? Pure energy fluids surrounding everything, controlled by the mind to make stuff levitate!
Yeah, cool, maybe David Copperfield already know how to do all these stuff! Maybe he will save the world!
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 11:16:37by RdSnt
tita wrote:And if the Force in Star Wars was in fact this ZPE ? Pure energy fluids surrounding everything, controlled by the mind to make stuff levitate!
Yeah, cool, maybe David Copperfield already know how to do all these stuff! Maybe he will save the world!
David Copperfield has an identical twin brother.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 11:18:36by Doly
RdSnt wrote:David Copperfield has an identical twin brother.
Called Luke Skywalker?
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 13:29:16by FoxV
I find it hard to believe that this topic made two pages let alone that ZPE actually exists.
anyways, anybody care to put up what ZPE is, or is its description as elusive as its feasiblilty (I'd do it myself but i think I've wasted enough time on this topic just writing this reply
)
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 13:44:08by MarkR
[q]I find it hard to believe that this topic made two pages let alone that ZPE actually exists. [/q]
There are a number of scientific theories that predict ZPE, or theories that are very neatly explained by ZPE, but without it are almost incomprehensible.
The amount of ZPE in an empty volume of space can be calculated and is absolutely vast - a completely ridiculous number (something like there's enough energy in the space the size of a coffee cup, to boil and evaporate all the water on earth). However, so far no one has managed to harness its energy, nor indeed is there even a satisfactory theory which would allow the ZP energy to be tapped.
There are astronomical observations and theories that lead to a suspicion that ZPE may be at work. E.g. Stephen Hawking's theory of black holes suggests that they are able to tap the ZP energy and convert it into pure matter. There are a few problems for a terrestrial implementation of this:
1) The energy tapped is only a loan. The black hole has to pay the energy back by destroying it's own matter and returning the energy back to the ZP vacuum. As a result black holes a believed to 'evaporate' after a while because all their matter is destroyed.
2) Capturing the ZP energy requires powerful forces. The forces required would likely disrupt the entire solar system.
3) The energy actually capturable is quite low. Even supermassive black holes - some of the most powerful objects in the universe - can caputure only small amounts of power: around 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 Watts.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 13:58:28by eric_b
Zero point energy's bunk. Most of the people supporting ZPE (Like Tom Bearden
and his (perpetual motion) MEG device) are either cranks, crackpots, deluded, or
outright frauds.
My conclusion after researching this entire area.
Sure, they can talk a good talk. These people would do well writing the pseudo
science dialogs for Star Trek.
But they can't walk the walk. Look, if there was anything to these devices, which
have supposedly been around for years, they'd be selling like hotcakes.
ZPE - just another name for perpetual motion.
maybe... just maybe!
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 15:48:54by merecat
The universe is a fine example of zero point energy in action. With regard to the laws of thermodynamics, surely they should be called the 'theories' of thermodynamics, to call something a law is suspicious in itself.
For anyone wishing to push the envelope of their belief system (aw go on, just for a little while) then do check out this
link.
Re: maybe... just maybe!
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 16:18:14by MacG
It is
always this "Nearing Pre-Production Stage" and "next year" and similar.
Always!
Re: maybe... just maybe!
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 16:24:23by eric_b
merecat wrote:The universe is a fine example of zero point energy in action. With regard to the laws of thermodynamics, surely they should be called the 'theories' of thermodynamics, to call something a law is suspicious in itself.
For anyone wishing to push the envelope of their belief system (aw go on, just for a little while) then do check out this
link.
Energy, light - itself, must somehow be 'eternal', that's what the universe tells us.
The cosmos is a game, but it does appear there are certain rules or locks
or limitations on the flow and transformation of energy.
The first three laws are the best 'big picture' laws we've been able to come
up with regarding energy flow in the universe.
If the ZPE people have an extension or adjunct to the first three established
'laws' of thermodynamics that's fine. But they have yet to provide a working
ZPE device, so their claims remain imagination and conjecture.
Re: Zero point energy (ZPE) - a new energy source
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 17:33:11by agni
Graeme wrote:New science is opening the way to fuel-free power and propulsion and a turnaround of Global Warming. Conventional wisdom suggests we will be dependent on oil, gas, coal and nuclear power for the foreseeable future. Alternative energy is thought to be limited to solar, wind, fuel-cells and biofuels, etc. However, a revolutionary family of energy conversion technologies has emerged that is likely to prove extremely important. This breakthrough requires no fuel and produces no pollution. It opens a path to cost competitive electric power, automotive, and later aerospace propulsion.
Research by press releases or even worse, websites, doesn´t work. I´ll believe in it once I see a working prototype or the idea published in a mainstream peer-reviewed journal. While ZPE does exist and there have been ideas proposed to extract it, none have been realistic.
These guys are proposing Mach 4 planes before extracting a single Joule of energy. They sound more like the Baghdad Bob than scientists.
-A
Zero Point Energy
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 18:19:58by Novus
Looks like zero point energy might not just be the rantings of mad scientists after all.
http://pesn.com/2005/06/17/9600113_Magn ... roduction/
Here are a few excerpts from the article:
Magnetic Power Inc. is Nearing Pre-Production Stage with Zero Point Energy Modules
Modules built with off-the-shelf components are expected to generate electricity anywhere, any time, for less than 1 cent per kilowatt-hour. One kW modules expected for market early next year.
SEBASTOPOL, CALIFORNIA, USA -- At their present rate of progress, Magnetic Power Inc. (MPI) says they could have 1 kW Magnetic Power Modules™, anticipated to generate electricity for less than one cent per kilowatt-hour, ready for sale by strategic partners next year. "Nothing else would come close," says Mark Goldes," chairman and CEO...
NASA data suggests there is far more than 20 times the Zero Point Energy available anyplace on earth than solar energy at the peak of the day, and it is available 24/7...
In the near-term, MPI is focusing on pre-production prototypes of Demonstration Devices, which can be made available to schools and universities, as well as a 1 kW generator. MPI expects that these will be manufactured by strategic partners under license next year. Another early application would be portable or emergency generators. Additionally, early on, a few linked modules could provide enough power for homes...
Goldes cites a number of reasons why he believes we do not have a lot of time as a nation or world in terms of energy stability, and that the need for alternative, clean energy is not just a matter of economics, but of grave urgency. For example, he cites a number of extremely well qualified experts who have stated that a shortage of natural gas may cause major shortages of electricity in the United States as early as next year.
I have been researching zero point energy for a while and I really like the math behind it as a unified theory in physics. Zero point energy resonates at 10^30 hertz. Plug that into the below equation will tell you how much energy that is. There is a lot of energy just floating around everywhere. It is about time we put some of it to use.
Reading from the last paragraph has me worried though. Will we have enough time to deploy this before the window runs out and we end up with chaos and die off?
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 18:29:02by julianj
I'm non technical.
When can I get a ZPE module from the store to power my home?
how much does it cost, what's the shipping, EROEI (sigh).
Hold on, when you get ZPE, you can teleport it directly into my kitchen!
So the only real problem is how do I sign that I've received it?
Re: ZPE modual cost and EROEI
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 18:50:40by Novus
Like any new technology the first prototypes are going to cost over a million dollars and then the first production models costing about a tenth as much as the prototypes. Second run models then costing half as much as the first run models. This is were the time window comes into play. Will there be enough time develope and deploy these things on any sort of scale before the age of cheap energy ends.
When these things get going they will likely have an EROEI that is twenty times greater then solar voltaics. So maybe we are looking at EROEI around 25 or so if the modual runs near maximium efficeincy. Not as good as light crude but still good.
From the theory as I understand it ZPE can only be teleported half the width of atom.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 18:54:15by Jack
Already posted
HERE along with extensive comments.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 19:04:16by julianj
Gawd,
this really is clutching at straws.
I'm non technical and arty, but I really didn't feel I was going to get out my credit card and become and angel to these guys.
When I can go down to B & Q and buy a Zero Point Energy Generator off the shelf and walk out with it, then I'll believe this stuff. Otherwise, to me its down there with Abiotic oil and the 12 foot lizards.
Smeg me. This is an evidence-based site. Show us the prototype. Hey - get Pup and Devil and Aaron and Monte to test it. What would it cost you? The word of mouth marketing would be immense...
...if it worked...
I somehow think this won't ever happen..
RE: already posted
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 19:08:16by Novus
That other thread makes no mention of Gold's 1kW power module. People here seem to think ZPE is bunk and unprooven. This thread is not about the theory behind zero point energy but about bringing ZPE designs into primetime use. Zero point energy is real and it works and the question is now a matter of logistics in bringing it to market.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 19:10:46by julianj
Sorry, and Enviro Engineer and whole loads of other PO.com people who would cream their Kecks at getting their pseudopods on a new energy source....
Yeah, right.
Show me the money... I mean energy, right now. Put up or shut up.
Re: RE: already posted
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 19:43:57by eric_b
Novus wrote:That other thread makes no mention of Gold's 1kW power module. People here seem to think ZPE is bunk and unprooven. This thread is not about the theory behind zero point energy but about bringing ZPE designs into primetime use. Zero point energy is real and it works and the question is now a matter of logistics in bringing it to market.
No, it doesn't work. There are no functioning MEG devices, or at least none that
have been substantiated. Just a cute unproven theory.
See my comments on the ZPE thread in 'Current Events'
Last update to the MEG builders site ...
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm
...
03-22-03.
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 20:09:56by Dezakin
These are the guys who brought us the ultraconductor scam... the room temperature polymer superconductors that no one has actually seen or used.
Be very skeptical of a teeny tiny microcap that claims to have invented two world changing technologies at once but just hasn't gotten around to production yet.
Bullshit makes the flowers grow, one by one, row by row.
Re: RE: already posted
Posted:
Thu 23 Jun 2005, 20:10:10by Jack
Novus wrote:That other thread makes no mention of Gold's 1kW power module. People here seem to think ZPE is bunk and unprooven. This thread is not about the theory behind zero point energy but about bringing ZPE designs into primetime use. Zero point energy is real and it works and the question is now a matter of logistics in bringing it to market.
That right? And where might I purchase this miraculous module? Since he claims to have a major advance in physics, what publications has he made in peer reviewed journals - in the field of physics? What proof does he offer?
If the MM (short for miracle module) were workable, he could sell it to any nation's military and make arbitrarily large sums of money. No doubt he is such a self sacrificing sort that he wishes to serve man.
By the way - I alude here to the Twilight Zone episode regarding "serving man".