[Sixstrings]

China says opposes 'illegal behavior' in Hong Kong

Hong Kong (Reuters) - China said on Sunday it opposes all kinds of illegal behavior in Hong Kong that undermines social stability as pro-democracy supporters geared up for a showdown with police as they push demands for greater political freedoms in the former British colony.

...

Violent clashes between Hong Kong riot police and students galvanized tens of thousands of supporters of the city's pro-democracy movement and kick-started a plan to lock down the heart of the Asian financial center early on Sunday.
http://news.yahoo.com/china-says-opposes-illegal-behavior-hong-kong-093610135--finance.html

Ok here's the upshot on this -- Beijing announced that Hong Kong can't elect just anybody anymore, but rather they can only pick from a slate of Beijing-approved candidates. So that's what the mass protests are about.

Interestingly, I recall reading about the Russian regional elections and voter turnout being so low over the same darn issue -- only kremlin candidates on the ballot.

So we shall see where this goes, and what China does about it.

People in Hong Kong want democracy, not dictatorship. Their student protests won a victory some time ago, that issue was about Beijing wanting to rewrite historical curriculum in Hong Kong schools.

I don't think Beijing will back down unless forced to by out of control unrest and uprising. They want to end democracy in Hong Kong -- it's not a democracy anymore if it's the central (authoritarian communist) government telling you who you can and can't vote for.

It's like a referendum in Crimea with just two "yes" votes, and no way to vote no.

Good luck to the people of Hong Kong. It's too bad the Brits handed their own citizens over to a communist state in the first place. Everyone knew this day would come.

[Sixstrings]

Beijing pulled the kill switch on Instagram.

Tear gas fired on massive crowds:











The protests exploded after authorities arrested democracy movement leaders.

You guys seeing a pattern here, with these things? Same as Ukraine. The more Beijing does to crack down, the more the protests will spread and people rise up, right into full rebellion if Beijing pushes it that far.

We shall see what happens.

CNN video of tear gas going off:

Hong Kong: Tear gas fired at protesters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-p9qUPkQkY

[Keith_McClary]

Brits handed their own citizens over

Colonial subjects ruled by a London appointed Governor, actually.

[AgentR11]

The more Beijing does to crack down, the more the protests will spread and people rise up, right into full rebellion if Beijing pushes it that far.

Full rebellion in HK has only one possible result. All the protestors will be dead.

I doubt it will come to that though. The protestors will take a few days of constant saturation with tear gas, and will either die or leave. Or leave, then die.

[Sixstrings]

Daily Mail says the protesters have copied the "hands up, don't shoot" tactic from Ferguson Missouri protesters:

Appropriation: Protesters in Hong Kong have appropriated the gesture, which came to symbolise the fight against racism and police violence in America, as a symbol of democracy and freedom.

Their use of the gesture has been hailed as a sign of how 'plugged in' to world affairs Hong Kongers are despite the mainland government's attempts to stifle social media and other information-gathering tools

Sigh. Did I miss something about the Ferguson protests? What were people doing, kneeling with hands up in front of police?

That's actually rather brilliant. Who could baton whip or teargas a person just kneeling with their hands up, right?

(Ferguson riots were still a bunch of crap though, that guy robbed a liquor store and rushed a cop and everyone saw just half the story on a youtube vid and it blows up into riots, and now little Ferguson somehow influences Hong Kong, oh what a strange world it is...

Hm, maybe they've been watching Ukraine too.. maybe they'll make a Maidon..)

[Sixstrings]

They're calling it the "umbrella revolution" now, we're headed into maidon territory on this one.

'Umbrella Revolution' Protests Spread In Hong Kong

Their tactics appeared to have backfired, however, judging from the growing crowds as people finishing work joined weary-looking students camped on major roads near the city's government headquarters and in several other areas.

"The students are protecting the right to vote, for Hong Kong's future. We are not scared, we are not frightened, we just fight for it," said Carol Chan, a 55-year-old civil service worker who took two days off to join the protests after becoming angered over police use of tear gas Sunday.

Instead of candlelight, a few hundred people staged a brief "mobile light" protest Monday night, raising their glowing mobile phones into the air. One person chanted the name of the city's unpopular leader, Chief Executive Leung Chun-ying, while the others responded with "Resign. Resign."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/29/hong-kong_n_5899116.html

[Keith_McClary]

They're calling it the "umbrella revolution" now, we're headed into maidon territory on this one.

Unlike Maidan, I am not yet seeing the cheerleading by politicians and media.

Our Harper, who was very loud about Maidan, Libya and Syria, has just closed a trade deal with China and has a state visit to China in November. Guess how concerned he is about HK democracy?

[Sixstrings]

Our Harper, who was very loud about Maidan, Libya and Syria, has just closed a trade deal with China and has a state visit to China in November. Guess how concerned he is about HK democracy?

Btw, what's up with his hair?



Well, anyhow, I guess you'll be with the protesters on this one Keith?

If Harper isn't for it and Obama and 'muricans and John McCain and Cameron all don't give a sh*t, will this one count as cool then and you could get on board?

Personally -- I really am for democracy and I root for these folks wherever they are. That goes for a Ukraine or a Hong Kong, and Russia one day too when they finally rebel against their regime. And China, too, and we'll see what happens but Hong Kong protests could spark protests on the mainland.

So here we have another black and white tyranny versus democracy, and thank goodness the Chinese aren't cool like Russians so I'm guessing none of you will be spinning BS for Beijing.

China is 100% wrong on this one -- they want to end democracy in Hong Kong, with Beijing putting out a slate of candidates for people to vote for, that Beijing approves of. That's obviously not democracy and obviously the people couldn't ever get a opposition candidate elected if all the candidates have to be approved by the Chinese communist party for goodness sake.

Same problem in Russia -- not much opposition, it's all kremlin slates of candidates, opposition is strictly suppressed and controlled.

Wake up folks -- democracy matters, there really is a difference between a Russia and a China, versus how Hong Kong used to be -- democratic -- and how we still are. And what Ukraine is fighting to be, and what Hong Kongers are fighting to keep, too -- they've been free a long time and don't want to lose their democracy and human rights and fair, normal elections.

[Plantagenet]

Beijing is 100% wrong on this one -- they want to end democracy in Hong Kong, with Beijing putting out a slate of candidates for people to vote for, that Beijing approves of. That's obviously not democracy

Of course not. China isn't a democratic state.

Wake up folks -- democracy matters, there really is a difference between a Russia and a China, versus how Hong Kong used to be -- democratic -- and how we still are.

I agree with you 100%. Nonetheless the communist leaders in Beijing hold all the cards here. If they want to squish the demonstrators in Hong Kong they can do it easily---just as they did in tienamin square 20 years ago.

[Keith_McClary]

they want to end democracy in Hong Kong

They never had democracy in HK. Do some reading please.

[Sixstrings]

They never had democracy in HK. Do some reading please.

Hm.. well they always seemed like a democracy, with the uber free market uber capitalist ethos they've always had.

There was no elected city officials under the British governors?

Anyhow, read the wiki and I guess the protest is about their transition to *full* democracy that China stopped:

On 31 August 2014, China blocked moves by Hong Kong to move to full democracy, by ruling that only three candidates could run for elections as leader in 2017, and they would not be chosen by any process in Hong Kong, but by a nomination committee established by China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

Talk about semantics and split hairs all you want to, but these Hong Kongers seem to think they live in a democracy and they want to pick their own candidates, not a Chinese communist committee in Beijing.

Hands up don't shoot is being used by tens of thousands as a form of protest in Hong Kong. Powerful.
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/riot-police-tear-gas-pro-democracy-demonstrators-hong-kong

[Keith_McClary]

Well, anyhow, I guess you'll be with the protesters on this one Keith?

If Harper isn't for it and Obama and 'muricans and John McCain and Cameron all don't give a sh*t, will this one count as cool then and you could get on board?

I'm waiting to see if your State Department flies Victoria Nuland over to hand out cookies.

But, seriously, why do those folks have such a selective concern about democracy.

[Sixstrings]

But, seriously, why do those folks have such a selective concern about democracy.

Well that's what I wonder about your side, Keith, and ennui was posting the same kind of question -- why are you guys "hip" to Scotland but weren't to Ukraine.

And now what do you think of Hong Kong. Do you need to wait to see who is for it and against it, before you can make your own mind up?

I've already looked at the thing and I don't care where anyone else stands on it, the protesters are right. If they don't stand up now, these young students will never see a democratic vote in their lifetime.

EDIT: about the geopolitics and to really answer your question.. it's just what you said, about Harper and him having a trade deal thing and you know Canada has a million Ukrainians but not a million Hong Kongers.

Far as gov goes, picking *where* they stand up and get moral outrage about just depends on the confluence of interests going on. So that's why you saw a NATO Serbia war, yet nothing done in Rwanda, etc. etc.

I don't have an axe to grind, I'm just supportive of OWS peoples' uprisings in general. These Hong Kongers want the same things Ukrainians want. And you can see from the HK example, it's not all about money is it?

Hong Kong does very well for itself, these are well off people, but still they occupy and protest and they want democracy and a democratic vote and they deserve it. They're universal God-given human rights, Russia and China and all the other despotic regimes and ideologies are WRONG, and we are RIGHT.

[Sixstrings]

These protesters are clever. They had a big banner saying "do you hear the people sing?" and I didn't catch the reference but googled it and it's the revolutionary song from Les Miserables:

Do You Hear the People Sing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYb9sRLUDyM

The "umbrella revolution:"

[Sixstrings]

The revolution grows; democracy protesters say the government has by Wednesday to respond to their demands or they'll begin new civil disobedience measures:

Hong Kong's 'umbrella revolution' opens wide

HONG KONG — Pro-democracy protesters took to the streets Tuesday in a growing confrontation with China over the financial hub's future as either an enclave of freedom or another communist-controlled city.

Protest leaders set a Wednesday deadline for a response from the government to their demands for reforms and said they would soon announce new civil disobedience plans.

Some protesters are already labeling the movement "the umbrella revolution" for the umbrellas many are holding to deflect pepper spray and tear gas that was lobbed by police on Sunday night.

That fueled even more protesters to come out in force Monday. Tens of thousands of young demonstrators blocked what are normally some of Hong Kong's busiest streets.

...

At stake is not just the election but the future of the former British colony as a semiautonomous city and the prospect of the pro-democracy movement spreading to the mainland.

"This is anything but a flash in the pan," said Scott Harold, a political scientist at RAND Corp. Beijing wants to crack down on the protests so that Hong Kong's political freedoms don't "infect" the rest of the country, he said.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/09/29/hong-kong-democracy-protests/16413195/

The thing to really watch with this thing is the "Maidon effect" -- it will be the SAME THING, if the government tries to crack down then that will just anger even more people and more will take to the streets.

That already happened after the police used tear gas, and the protest swelled in response to that.

[AgentR11]

The thing to really watch with this thing is the "Maidon effect" -- it will be the SAME THING, if the government tries to crack down then that will just anger even more people and more will take to the streets.

That already happened after the police used tear gas, and the protest swelled in response to that.

You do realize the difference right? Ukraine was a weak, and deliberately weakened state. The PRC really can arrest and imprison every single human living in Hong Kong, if they choose to do so. There is no risk of a maidan in HK.

I think the PRC would *like* the protests to last a few weeks or months and burn themselves out; because the way this plays out could seriously effect the way people in Taipei see their relationship with the PRC which has been warming gently over the years. If China can maintain working business in HK while the protestors wear themselves out, it'll be a big win; even if it takes months. If business is disrupted, or they have to use overwhelming force to restore order, it'll be a loss.

[Sixstrings]

There is no risk of a maidan in HK.

Sigh agent, of ye of so little faith in the human spirit that yearns to be free.

We'll see who's right. Actually, it looks like China's hands are a bit tied. They can't just roll tanks in, without consequences. And if they try? We'll find out how that works out for them, in this new internet social media hive mind world -- I bet you'd see uprising flaring up on the mainland.

They can't kill them all:

[AgentR11]

Xi's implied response... "Yes. Yes I can. I choose not to, but I most certainly can."

[Sixstrings]

They're putting up barricades and settling in, sounds like a maidon:

(Reuters) - Tens of thousands of pro-democracy protesters filled the streets of Hong Kong late on Tuesday, stockpiling supplies and erecting makeshift barricades ahead of what some fear may be a push by police to clear the roads before Chinese National Day.

...

"Many powerful people from the mainland will come to Hong Kong. The Hong Kong government won't want them to see this, so the police must do something," Sui-ying Cheng, 18, a freshman at Hong Kong University's School of Professional and Continuing Education, said of the National Day holiday.

"We are not scared. We will stay here tonight. Tonight is the most important," she said.

Online student groups urged supporters to move towards the convention centre, near the harbour waterfront, ahead of a planned flag-raising ceremony there on Wednesday morning.

Student leaders had given Hong Kong leader Leung Chun-ying an ultimatum to come out and address the protesters before midnight on Tuesday, threatening to escalate action in the next few days to occupy more government facilities, buildings and public roads if he failed to do so.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/30/us-hongkong-china-idUSKCN0HN03Q20140930

Many similarities here, to Ukraine. Such as:

-- In Ukraine, the protesters were wanting a change, association with EU and also democratic reforms, but their dictator told them Moscow wouldn't let him do the EU deal there's nothing he could do for them no matter how much tey protest.

-- Same thing in Hong Kong, with their chief executive telling them that Beijing "won't budge" and no amount of protest will do any good.

So we're going to see the same thing again, as Ukraine. Hong Kong gov will attempt to crack down, it will shock the people and many more will get very angry and swell the streets further, and back and forth like that, until Hong Hong has a color revolution and Beijing will be forced to accept that.

[Keith_McClary]

But, seriously, why do those folks have such a selective concern about democracy.

Well that's what I wonder about your side, Keith, and ennui was posting the same kind of question -- why are you guys "hip" to Scotland but weren't to Ukraine.

And now what do you think of Hong Kong. Do you need to wait to see who is for it and against it, before you can make your own mind up?

I've already looked at the thing and I don't care where anyone else stands on it, the protesters are right. If they don't stand up now, these young students will never see a democratic vote in their lifetime.

Since you think you live in a democratic country, shouldn't your first impulse be to write to your elected representatives about this? Ask them why they are not even sending cookies?

Canada has a million Ukrainians but not a million Hong Kongers.

Did you research that?

EDIT:

All this gives the lie to President Obama’s vow in recent speeches in the UN and at a meeting of the Clinton Global Initiative “to stand with the courageous citizens and brave civil society groups who are working for equality and opportunity and justice and human dignity all over the world.”

Whatever else it is doing, the US is clearly not standing with the courageous citizens and brave civil society groups of Hong Kong.

Of course not. Hong Kong is the gateway to China for American corporations. It is where most of those companies that invest in China have their headquarters. As well, Hong Kong Stock Market is where American investment banks put their money when they want to invest in China’s economy, preferring to buy stocks in so-called “Red Chips” — Chinese state companies that list some of their shares on the reasonably transparent Hong Kong stock market — rather than buying shares on the less-than-transparent and easily manipulated Shanghai or Shenzhen exchanges inside of China.

Don’t expect the US to rock the boat with China.

For years, American business leaders and politicians have parroted the Milton Friedmanesque argument that American corporate investment in China would inevitably lead to democracy there. Never mind that Nobel Laureate Friedman’s theory linking capitalism and freedom never had a shred of real evidence to back it, and that there is, in fact, plenty of evidence, from Hitler’s Germany and Mussolini’s Italy to Pinochet’s Chile, to debunk it. Almost 40 years of the reintroduction of capitalism in China have not got much in the way of freedom to show for them.

Hong Kong’s citizens have, for some time, had freedom of speech, press, assembly, religion and travel. They have been slowly gaining democratic control over their government too, but now have run up against a Chinese Wall, and are taking to the streets to push down that wall.

The US government, ever the democratic poseur, so quick to finance chaos in Ukraine or to launch missiles, bombers and armed drones in Syria or Iraq in the name of democracy-building, has nothing to say in its defense.

I’m not saying that the US should be threatening drone strikes against China if it presses the crackdown against Hong Kong democracy activists (it shouldn’t be sending drones anywhere!). But certainly the US should be taking a strong public stand in condemning China for going back on its word about allowing democratic election of the city’s chief executive in 2017, and against the violent police crackdown on peaceful protesters.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/30/ ... hong-kong/