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THE China and Trains Thread (merged)

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THE China and Trains Thread (merged)

Unread postby mattduke » Sat 12 Dec 2009, 12:48:07

It's on the world's longest track. They completed the project in 4 years. Look what real savings and production get you.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8406910.stm
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby Novus » Sat 12 Dec 2009, 22:04:01

Back land of the backwards all we have going in terms of national transport is cash for clunkers. Pathetic!
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby Ainan » Sun 13 Dec 2009, 18:55:41

A Chinese achievement using German technology(Max Bogel) managed by Frenchmen(Systra) and manufactured in Germany by Germans(Siemens).

When the West finally collapses the world will enter a Dark Age once again.
April 2008 Global Population: 6.8 billion
April 2010 Global Population: 7 billion
April 2012 Global Population: 7.2 billion
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby mattduke » Sun 13 Dec 2009, 21:07:47

Factory output climbed 19.2 percent from a year earlier, the statistics bureau said in Beijing. That was more than the 18.2 percent median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey of 25 economists. Exports slid 1.2 percent. Imports rose 26.7 percent.

Chinese factory output climbes 19% in one year.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... eAjDY60ITY

Google's new phone to be built by Taiwanese company.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby yeahbut » Sun 13 Dec 2009, 22:31:33

Ainan wrote:A Chinese achievement using German technology(Max Bogel) managed by Frenchmen(Systra) and manufactured in Germany by Germans(Siemens).

When the West finally collapses the world will enter a Dark Age once again.


Riiiight...because the West has never borrowed any inventions or technology from the Chinese- barring the compass, gunpowder, paper, and printing that is. Going back a bit further, there's the potter's wheel, the seed drill and the iron plough, and forward in time a few thousand years we have the invention of paper money, the blast furnace, and all kinds of cool weaponry including fire lances, landmines, hand cannons and aerodynamic rockets with explosive payloads. And as far as oil goes, "The earliest known oil wells were drilled in China in 347 CE. They had depths of up to about 800 feet (240 m) and were drilled using bits attached to bamboo poles.[1] The oil was burned to evaporate brine and produce salt. By the 10th century, extensive bamboo pipelines connected oil wells with salt springs".wikipedia

With no history or culture of invention, the Chinese would be as helpless as lambs without Western technology :roll:
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 14 Dec 2009, 02:13:22

yeahbut wrote:
Ainan wrote:A Chinese achievement using German technology(Max Bogel) managed by Frenchmen(Systra) and manufactured in Germany by Germans(Siemens).

When the West finally collapses the world will enter a Dark Age once again.


Riiiight...because the West has never borrowed any inventions or technology from the Chinese- barring the compass, gunpowder, paper, and printing that is. Going back a bit further, there's the potter's wheel, the seed drill and the iron plough, and forward in time a few thousand years we have the invention of paper money, the blast furnace, and all kinds of cool weaponry including fire lances, landmines, hand cannons and aerodynamic rockets with explosive payloads. And as far as oil goes, "The earliest known oil wells were drilled in China in 347 CE. They had depths of up to about 800 feet (240 m) and were drilled using bits attached to bamboo poles.[1] The oil was burned to evaporate brine and produce salt. By the 10th century, extensive bamboo pipelines connected oil wells with salt springs".wikipedia

With no history or culture of invention, the Chinese would be as helpless as lambs without Western technology :roll:


I dunno, I think it's fair to say that the Chinese are just culturally conservative (not in the political sense, but in the don't-rock-the-boat sense). They once built a massive fleet to explore the world, a fleet superior to anything that had been built up until that time. Well, they got as far as the coast of India and decided the world didn't have anything they wanted.

So I think the West will continue to be the cradle of innovation, but unfortunately for us working slobs it'll be the Chinese who continue to capitalize on our innovations.
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby yeahbut » Mon 14 Dec 2009, 02:50:13

Sixstrings wrote:[So I think the West will continue to be the cradle of innovation


"Continue" is a very relative term, in the Chinese view of history(ie six or seven millenia of civilisation), it's not appropriate at all. As I was trying to point out, an objective look at the past shows that China has been a hotbed of innovation for many thousands of years. I suspect that with the 'to be rich is glorious' credo firmly back in place, and an insanely large and motivated population, China will soon be at the forefront of invention and innovation once more.
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Re: China Unveils Worlds Fastest Train

Unread postby zeke3000 » Mon 14 Dec 2009, 05:03:13

mattduke wrote:
Factory output climbed 19.2 percent from a year earlier, the statistics bureau said in Beijing. That was more than the 18.2 percent median estimate in a Bloomberg News survey of 25 economists. Exports slid 1.2 percent. Imports rose 26.7 percent.

Chinese factory output climbes 19% in one year.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... eAjDY60ITY

Google's new phone to be built by Taiwanese company.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... stpop_read



That´s about exactly the same factory output went DOWN in my country. Something like 20 % down from last year. Seems to be a vague connection here... :(
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China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby mattduke » Thu 08 Apr 2010, 21:04:10

Nearly 150 years after American railroads brought in thousands of Chinese laborers to build rail lines across the West, China is poised once again to play a role in American rail construction. But this time, it would be an entirely different role: supplying the technology, equipment and engineers to build high-speed rail lines.

The Chinese government has signed cooperation agreements with the State of California and General Electric to help build such lines. The agreements, both of which are preliminary, show China’s desire to become a big exporter and licensor of bullet trains traveling 215 miles an hour, an environmentally friendly technology in which China has raced past the United States in the last few years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/busin ... ail&st=cse
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 09 Apr 2010, 03:42:18

And so it goes, while we fiddle with our iPads and stroke our egos on facebook, China continues to take the lead on everything else.

There's certainly a heaping dose of irony here, given how the Chinese railway laborers were treated like dirt when we built the first transcontinental railroads. Now they've returned, but this time they're the designers and suppliers of the technology, and it will be Americans doing the grunt work.
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby efarmer » Fri 09 Apr 2010, 08:05:56

The Brit money that came in to build our railways was allowed to bring in coolie
labor from it's colony and print them B.S. Railroad money for payment.
It will only be fitting if the Chinese get to print J6P yuans with a tilapia
face eating corn on the cob on them to pay for Yankee grunt labor.

This is a big mistake on our part, we need to take a huge idle auto plant
in the Midwest, and put a corporate team together to belch out passenger
rail equipment, both light rail and heavy rail passenger cars. We can name
the lightweight stuff Hannity cars, and the big ones Murdochs so that Fox News
lays off the socialist crap while we are getting going.

We can also make a fat car that hangs over the tracks on each side and
only runs backwards while belching huge clouds of smoke and steam.
This Limbaugh car will just sit on a sidetrack and toot it's own whistle while
everything else rolls by it and watches it jiggle and bounce up and down
in place. This car will not be subject to wear or use since it is actually on
loan from God.
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 09 Apr 2010, 09:22:51

Sixstrings wrote:And so it goes, while we fiddle with our iPads and stroke our egos on facebook, China continues to take the lead on everything else.



What are you doing to "take the lead" since you aren't spending time on iPads and Facebook?
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby americandream » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 02:33:22

What makes you think he/she isn't? Bit presumptuous of you, innit?

Ludi wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:And so it goes, while we fiddle with our iPads and stroke our egos on facebook, China continues to take the lead on everything else.



What are you doing to "take the lead" since you aren't spending time on iPads and Facebook?
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 09:25:49

americandream wrote:What makes you think he/she isn't? Bit presumptuous of you, innit?


I'm a man, just for the record. I think Ludi was just poking fun at me for using social media (this forum) to trash talk the iPad and me-me-me narcissistic facebook culture. She has a bit of a point there, though everything I do with social media concerns issues that affect us all. Facebook, on the other hand, is all about showing off pictures of yourself, blogging about yourself, notifying the world of your personal relationship "status," twittering the world about what you ate for lunch, etc. There's just a real shallowness to everything about Facebook and twittering, heck with twitter you can't even express a thought longer than a sentence.

As for "doing something about it," my political activity is limited to just voting and posting on this forum. But I would argue that posting on a forum isn't as inconsequential as some may think.

There are many, many more readers for every person who posts. So this is a perfectly valid form of protest, and really more effective than just standing on a local street corner with a sign. The more people that read these discussions about offshoring and globalism, the more people there may be to "do something about it" at the ballot box one day.

Not that I look for that to happen of course, outsourcing and globalism look like they're here to stay (peak oil doom is about the only thing that can save us now from globalism, overpopulation, and further resource depletion). But really, the outsroucing / globalism battle was lost a long time ago. We've already been warned, and we've had our chance to cast a ballot. Years ago, Ross Perot spent tens of millions of his own cash buying up 30 minute ads to warn us about the federal debt, deficit, NAFTA, and the "great sucking sound" of jobs leaving this country for other shores. But Americans decided to believe George Bush, Bill Clinton and Al Gore, they decided free trade really would mean more jobs and they also decided the tooth fairy does exist after all.

The decisions about globalism were made long ago, and now we're dealing with the consequences. But even now, most Americans don't give a damn about it. We'll never get a majority opinion against globalism until literally 51% of Americans are out of a job, because the fact is that as long as an American has his job then he loves the status quo just fine -- cheap iPads included.

I guess this is what it all comes down to, GREED. It's corporate, investor, and venture capitalist greed that sold this nation out to begin with. And further down the line you can blame individual American greed, since individual Americans don't give a damn about the country's future or their fellow unemployed citizen -- this country just has an overall attitude of "I got mine, so screw you." That's why we don't have universal healthcare like the Canadians, because we are fundamentally greedy people.

Bringing this back on topic to China and railroads.. the scary thing is that China is playing the master capitalist game here. As more and more of the world's industrial base moves to China, along with R&D, there will come a point where production will make sense there regardless of price. This is the same thing Walmart does, you move into town, put everybody else out of business, and then you can raise prices a bit but not so high as to invite competition. It's the classic monopoly game of selling at a loss then raising prices after you've achieved market domination.
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby hillsidedigger » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 09:35:42

It seems the U.S. would need to borrow money from China in order to pay them to do any rail work.
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 09:36:08

China is playing a long-term strategy and the US can't stop thinking short-term. So that gives China the edge economically, like a chess player who can think several extra moves ahead. The problem is that China hasn't properly factored in limits to growth, which has the potential to derail their plans, high-speed-rail or no high-speed-rail. So China's top-dog status is likely to be short-lived.
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 09:39:36

mos6507 wrote:China is playing a long-term strategy and the US can't stop thinking short-term. So that gives China the edge economically, like a chess player who can think several extra moves ahead. The problem is that China hasn't properly factored in limits to growth, which has the potential to derail their plans, high-speed-rail or no high-speed-rail. So China's top-dog status is likely to be short-lived.


Yeah, but at least China has gotten a handle on their population growth with the one child policy. We'll have 400 -500 million in 2050, with no end in sight.

hillsidedigger wrote:It seems the U.S. would need to borrow money from China in order to pay them to do any rail work.


Normally you'd be correct, but I think China just recently became a net seller of US treasuries. Which is very doomy because it means either other foreigners have to take up the slack, or if they don't then we have to print the money (which is what we do when the federal reserve "buys" the bonds).

But I might be wrong, maybe the Chinese are still net buyers of municipal (state, county, city) bonds?

Here's an idea: let's give every American the same right as the federal reserve, to print our own money out of thin air. Then the unemployed could loan employers money so the employers can hire and pay them. Brilliant, eh?
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 10:15:47

Sixstrings wrote: Facebook, on the other hand, is all about showing off pictures of yourself, blogging about yourself, notifying the world of your personal relationship "status," twittering the world about what you ate for lunch, etc.



Not actually. It is also used for political discussion, often heated. Kind of like here. But I guess if we post on a "forum" we're better than folks who post on Facebook. :wink:

*note - I'd don't use Facebook, but my husband does, and his discussion is often very political.

Let's not be such snobs, shall we?
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Re: China Is Eager to Bring High-Speed Rail Expertise to the U.S

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 10 Apr 2010, 11:39:57

efarmer wrote:This is a big mistake on our part, we need to take a huge idle auto plant
in the Midwest, and put a corporate team together to belch out passenger rail equipment, both light rail and heavy rail passenger cars.


You've got a good idea, but sadly, the Obama administration and the democratic Congress have got the wrong priorities. The Obama administration chose to waste our limited resources on highway pork projects and propping up GM and the UAW rather then looking to the future by converting auto plants to build light rail and high speed rail. :roll:
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