[Tanada]

No I am not trying to be provocative, its hard to come up with a title that belongs on this thread.

For those in New Zealand I just learned that some ten species of pine tree's which were imported decades ago to produce Lumber have been declared by the environment division of the Government to be invasive. This is because they spread naturally and are taking over the alpine biomes that were the province of sedges and grasses exclusively because New Zealand has been an isolated ecological region until the discovery by the Maori circa 800 AD.

These pine tree species are out competing the species of trees and grasses which were isolated on the two islands for millions of years after it broke free from Australia and Antarctica. This is unfortunate. IMO it is also inevitable, by this time the islands have thousands of pockets of these species of trees. In a resource constrained world, or even with large resources to expend, it would be nearly impossible to eliminate all ten of these species of trees from the islands, and even if you did all it takes are some seeds brought in from outside to restart their spread. This is as futile as the Denali National Park in Alaska enlisting volunteers every spring to uproot Dandelion's because they are a European plant and not native to the Alaska forest ecosystem. Once a plant has become established it is VERY hard to eliminate. Even the really bad ones like Japanese Kudzu which have had millions of dollars spent on eliminating keep spreading to new areas.

Far better to admit defeat now without wasting resources and dedicate those talents, time and expenses to making New Zealand self sustaining. IMO of course. Unlike Kudzu these pine forests will provide habitat for thousands of other species, some of them native to the islands and many of them also brought in by settlers.

[yeahbut]

Yeah, pines are an 'invasive' species. New Zealand, like so many other countries, is a victim of the movement of goods around the globe, and the critters that hitchhike with them. Our border controls are extremely tight because of the vulnerability of our food producing economy to pests, but they still get through. And of course, many of the worst offenders are intentionally introduced, like the pines you mention. Look at any exotic vine strangling the forest canopy, or any foreign understorey plant out-competing native plants, and chances are they were brought in as a nice ornamental for suburban gardens. Same goes for fauna, from the rat and dog that the Maori brought with them, on to the rabbit, possum, deer, cat, mustelids and many more that Europeans thought would be a lovely reminder of 'home'. All devastating to the original ecosystem.

The Department of Conservation, or DOC, spends an incredible amount of money dropping poison into the forests here to try and control these animals, and a lot more on plant control programmes such as the pine trees. I am in total agreement with you that this is wasted money and energy, I have always regarded it as a function of a very affluent society that will stop just as soon as times start to get properly tough. The only place that I think it has been worth doing is on a few offshore islands where the introduced species have been eliminated entirely. In these places the poisoning and spraying was a once off rather than having to be carried on forever more, and the thriving of local plant and bird species, some practically extinct, has been pretty cool to see.

Long term, all these introduced species are here to stay- there has been no suggestion of total eradication of a single one of them, and therefore it makes much more sense to take the permaculture approach and see them as a potential asset where possible. I have no doubt that at some time in NZ's future we will be eating possum and rabbit on a large scale, and that in the very long term a new balance will be found, with predators for species that currently have none, etc. Short term, it's sad to watch. Seems like there's a new nasty every few weeks. The worst one in recent years is 'rock snot', a particularly vile slimy algae that is invading the waterways of the South Island. It looks like what it sounds, and is ruining many of our best creeks and rivers one by one. Then there's koi carp which rip up riverbanks and foul the water, the list is endless.

But really, there isn't much point getting too het up about invasive species, because 1) they are here to stay, and 2) we humans are the worst invasive species by far, and none of the others would be here without us. So unless we wanna start our own eradication programme, we don't really have a leg to stand on
btw, the current estimates for Maori settlement of NZ are around 1350 AD, the older date is now considered incorrect.

[gnm]

No point wasting the resources. Better to try to find a way to use them. Here in NM its a rare species thats tough enough to survive much less become invasive. But some jackass managed to come up with a couple anyways. Salt cedar and Siberian elm. Argh.

-G

[dunewalker]

Yes, it's unfortunate, but I agree about letting it go at this point. Even if resources to eradicate invasives were available, the effort would be futile. As was said, we would be best advised to put remaining resources toward curtailing the ultimate of invasives, Homo sapiens. Back in the 1970s I had the honor of meeting Richard St. Barbie-Baker, considered the father of New Zealand forestry. He spent a week or so at my brother's house while visiting his beloved redwoods in Humboldt county, California.

http://www.unique-design.net/library/go ... baker.html

[Tanada]

I just find it incredibly frustrating that well meaning agencies waste so many resources on causes that both common sense AND reputable science are unwinnable.

We have an infestation of the Oriental Emerald Ash Borer, a truly destructive pest that has damaged millions of young ash trees and killed millions more mature trees that were not able to recover from attacks. We have spent millions clear cutting and destroying ash trees anywhere within sight of an infested tree, to the point that hundreds of thousands of untouched trees were cut down and chipped in an attempt to stop the spread all to no avail.

This is not to say the fight was always hopeless, in Maryland they had an outbreak and were able to stop it by the same measures, but by the time the Michigan/Ohio outbreak was identified the pest had moved too far and the efforts failed to stop it. We are, as far as I can tell, still under a wood transport quarentine even though the pest is now expanded out over an area about 1000 km across with us near the center. It is too late, spending more money will not accomplish anything.

Also some of the younger trees attacked on private property that were not removed are now still alive after 5 years, they are not healthy nor as attractive, but they are still alive and appear able to reproduce. It seems that this being the case cutting down every tree reduced the chances for younger trees that might have survived to do so. We don't know how things will ultimately turn out, we do know that mature trees that get infested die, but if younger trees can struggle along and reproduce then things will balance out eventually.

Nature is wonderful at achieving constant disequilibrium, with every species in constant competition for resources the balance shifts constantly. Every introduced species that has better traits prospers over the original colonizers, that is how nature has always worked. Presuming we can keep that from happening is pure Hubris on the part of our species.

[green_achers]

I agree that it's usually futile to try to eradicate the invasives, but that doesn't mean that it's a waste of effort to try to find ways to bring them into a better balance with their new ecosystems. Often they outcompete the natives because they are missing a natural predator or pathogen that keeps them under control in their native lands. Kudzu is an example. When I returned to MS after being gone for about 30 years, I was surprised to find that it has not spread a whole lot. I'm told that native pests were introduced that have helped to keep it from taking over. Same thing was done somewhat successfully with the cactus in Australia,and there are many other examples.

It takes a lot of research and care to deliberately introduce a species to control another and avoid further unintended consequences. Unfortunately, this requires money and energy, but it can be worth it.

[Tanada]

I agree that it's usually futile to try to eradicate the invasives, but that doesn't mean that it's a waste of effort to try to find ways to bring them into a better balance with their new ecosystems. Often they outcompete the natives because they are missing a natural predator or pathogen that keeps them under control in their native lands. Kudzu is an example. When I returned to MS after being gone for about 30 years, I was surprised to find that it has not spread a whole lot. I'm told that native pests were introduced that have helped to keep it from taking over. Same thing was done somewhat successfully with the cactus in Australia,and there are many other examples.

It takes a lot of research and care to deliberately introduce a species to control another and avoid further unintended consequences. Unfortunately, this requires money and energy, but it can be worth it.

Agreed, any basic cost~~benefit analysis should demonstrate when and where an invasive can be eradicated, where it can be countered with a natural control species, and where it is better to accept it and move on with exploitation. However what I see on Wikipedia and on Google lead me to believe that the New Zealand authorities are choosing to attempt eradication without any study on if it can be accomplished and how much effort it would require compared to the other two options.

[dunewalker]

Another example in my mind of mis-allocation of limited resources was what I observed today, on a trip to the county seat to cash in my recycling. There's a California agricultural inspection station between here & there, designed to screen out-of-state traffic for pests. Hard to imagine that these stations are effective, as they are sometimes closed, sometimes open, & wave lots of traffic through without inspection. Now that California is bankrupt, I was surprised that today the station was "open for business", although of course the attendant merely waved me through. With the terminator on the ropes to find ways to cut state spending, this would have been an obvious first round cut, but no. Hard to sympathize with the budget issues in the face of this, to me at least, wasted use of public money.

[americandream]

Rural New Zealand has been ravaged by gorse. Native birds have all but been exterminated by house cats. Cities and towns are a sprawl of patchwork development and spaghetti roading. And we voted in another conservative government with more free market remedies just as the world descends into deregulation horror. Introduced pines are the least of our worries!

[yeahbut]

I agree that it's usually futile to try to eradicate the invasives, but that doesn't mean that it's a waste of effort to try to find ways to bring them into a better balance with their new ecosystems. Often they outcompete the natives because they are missing a natural predator or pathogen that keeps them under control in their native lands. Kudzu is an example. When I returned to MS after being gone for about 30 years, I was surprised to find that it has not spread a whole lot. I'm told that native pests were introduced that have helped to keep it from taking over. Same thing was done somewhat successfully with the cactus in Australia,and there are many other examples.

It takes a lot of research and care to deliberately introduce a species to control another and avoid further unintended consequences. Unfortunately, this requires money and energy, but it can be worth it.

Agreed, any basic cost~~benefit analysis should demonstrate when and where an invasive can be eradicated, where it can be countered with a natural control species, and where it is better to accept it and move on with exploitation.

True, I believe there have been some successful introductions of control species here, a ladybird I think, and some parasitic wasps etc. One of our less successful attempts was when our great grandads realised maybe rabbits hadn't been such a great idea after all and decided stoats, ferrets and weasels was the way to go to contain them...120 years later, rabbits are still going fine, but many species of birds are extinct or on the verge thanks to the mustelids. Hopefully a bit more thought goes into it these days

However what I see on Wikipedia and on Google lead me to believe that the New Zealand authorities are choosing to attempt eradication without any study on if it can be accomplished and how much effort it would require compared to the other two options.

I believe that is correct for some of their programmes. As I said, the offshore island eradication programme is very successful and has an obvious, achievable goal. However, many mainland 'eradication' plans are not that at all- there is zero chance of complete elimination, and therefore the plan presumably is too keep poisoning, trapping, spraying and shooting forever more. Or maybe until a magical techno-fix comes along; nano-bugs, GE viruses, weasel-slaying cyborgs
It's futile and wasteful IMO. As an example of just how long ago this ship sailed, the number of exotic plant species established in the wild in NZ is now greater than the number of native species...(actually just tried to verify this and couldn't, but I'm pretty sure it's correct)...we need to work with this new ecosystem as best we can, not try and make it a big garden that we have to weed constantly because we like some plants better than others. As Tanada correctly points out, no new equilibrium(natural resistance to predators in native species etc) can be established while this scale of meddling goes on.

[yeahbut]

Rural New Zealand has been ravaged by gorse. Native birds have all but been exterminated by house cats. Cities and towns are a sprawl of patchwork development and spaghetti roading. And we voted in another conservative government with more free market remedies just as the world descends into deregulation horror. Introduced pines are the least of our worries!

Actually, gorse is an interesting one. In another classic case of colonial homesickness, some Scot thought it would be nice to have a gorse hedge like back home, only of course here the climate is a bit milder and it went crazy, growing 15 feet tall and smothering everything in sight. However, gorse is really only a problem for farming. If you want to re-establish native bush, it's a great plant. It's a nitrogen fixer, it provides great shelter for a growing tree, and best of all it needs full sun, so as soon as the trees start getting established it dies. An ideal nursery plant. It is, of course, an absolute bastard if you want a nice green paddock for your stock to graze, another self-inflicted blow...

For me, one of the saddest ones is the European wasp. We had no social wasps at all in NZ, it must have been really something to have a picnic on a summer's day without being harassed by these buggers. They only got here in 1945, my dad remembers there not being any. They really took off, and now reach densities in our beech forests at least three times that in their native range. They disrupt the food chain in two ways; one by taking almost all the honeydew as it drips out of the beech trees, depriving honey feeders, and two by stripping out practically all other insect life when their hive numbers are peaking. This combined with predation by exotics such as the cat, rat, stoat, weasel, etc creates irresistable pressure for many native birds that respond by reserving their energy and choosing not to reproduce. Attempts have been made ovet the last 20 years to control wasps with parasitic wasp species, no luck yet tho.

[americandream]

Rural New Zealand has been ravaged by gorse. Native birds have all but been exterminated by house cats. Cities and towns are a sprawl of patchwork development and spaghetti roading. And we voted in another conservative government with more free market remedies just as the world descends into deregulation horror. Introduced pines are the least of our worries!

Actually, gorse is an interesting one. In another classic case of colonial homesickness, some Scot thought it would be nice to have a gorse hedge like back home, only of course here the climate is a bit milder and it went crazy, growing 15 feet tall and smothering everything in sight. However, gorse is really only a problem for farming. If you want to re-establish native bush, it's a great plant. It's a nitrogen fixer, it provides great shelter for a growing tree, and best of all it needs full sun, so as soon as the trees start getting established it dies. An ideal nursery plant. It is, of course, an absolute bastard if you want a nice green paddock for your stock to graze, another self-inflicted blow...

For me, one of the saddest ones is the European wasp. We had no social wasps at all in NZ, it must have been really something to have a picnic on a summer's day without being harassed by these buggers. They only got here in 1945, my dad remembers there not being any. They really took off, and now reach densities in our beech forests at least three times that in their native range. They disrupt the food chain in two ways; one by taking almost all the honeydew as it drips out of the beech trees, depriving honey feeders, and two by stripping out practically all other insect life when their hive numbers are peaking. This combined with predation by exotics such as the cat, rat, stoat, weasel, etc creates irresistable pressure for many native birds that respond by reserving their energy and choosing not to reproduce. Attempts have been made ovet the last 20 years to control wasps with parasitic wasp species, no luck yet tho.

I'm not entirely certain that maintaining a pristine native landscape is possible or desirable in a constantly changing world but what we have in New Zealand is a far cry from what foreigners think we have. Some of it's just plain old short term thinking for private profit (and the Greens didn't achieve much apart from the anti-smacking law...what a waste) but try complaining to the average joe. You might as well piss in the wind.

[yeahbut]

I'm not entirely certain that maintaining a pristine native landscape is possible or desirable in a constantly changing world but what we have in New Zealand is a far cry from what foreigners think we have. Some of it's just plain old short term thinking for private profit (and the Greens didn't achieve much apart from the anti-smacking law...what a waste) but try complaining to the average joe. You might as well piss in the wind.

Indeed. And that's why the greens didn't achieve much- the average joe doesn't vote for them. Labour chose to make an alliance with the Huntin' Fishin' Smokin' and god-bothering party rather than with the Greens, which told you all you needed to know about that shower of morons. Three terms and nothing to show for it except being much further down the wrong road(but at least they made heaps more of those, eh cuz...)

[green_achers]

Another example in my mind of mis-allocation of limited resources was what I observed today, on a trip to the county seat to cash in my recycling. There's a California agricultural inspection station between here & there, designed to screen out-of-state traffic for pests. Hard to imagine that these stations are effective, as they are sometimes closed, sometimes open, & wave lots of traffic through without inspection. Now that California is bankrupt, I was surprised that today the station was "open for business", although of course the attendant merely waved me through. With the terminator on the ropes to find ways to cut state spending, this would have been an obvious first round cut, but no. Hard to sympathize with the budget issues in the face of this, to me at least, wasted use of public money.

Those inspection stations have been a joke as long as I can remember. The first time I ever came to California was in the summer of 1970. Two stoned high-school students trying to cross the line and confronted by someone in a uniform asking if we had any fruit. I actually had a couple of apples in the back and when I showed them to the man he acted like no one had ever actually showed him any before, he didn't quite know what to do.

I couldn't figure out what that was all about, and still don't have an answer.

[americandream]

I'm not entirely certain that maintaining a pristine native landscape is possible or desirable in a constantly changing world but what we have in New Zealand is a far cry from what foreigners think we have. Some of it's just plain old short term thinking for private profit (and the Greens didn't achieve much apart from the anti-smacking law...what a waste) but try complaining to the average joe. You might as well piss in the wind.

Indeed. And that's why the greens didn't achieve much- the average joe doesn't vote for them. Labour chose to make an alliance with the Huntin' Fishin' Smokin' and god-bothering party rather than with the Greens, which told you all you needed to know about that shower of morons. Three terms and nothing to show for it except being much further down the wrong road(but at least they made heaps more of those, eh cuz...)

The Greens worldwide are a bunch of sellouts. The scumbags in Germany supported the invasion of Iraq which just about sums them up...bloody useless.

[Tanada]

I'm not entirely certain that maintaining a pristine native landscape is possible or desirable in a constantly changing world but what we have in New Zealand is a far cry from what foreigners think we have. Some of it's just plain old short term thinking for private profit (and the Greens didn't achieve much apart from the anti-smacking law...what a waste) but try complaining to the average joe. You might as well piss in the wind.

Indeed. And that's why the greens didn't achieve much- the average joe doesn't vote for them. Labour chose to make an alliance with the Huntin' Fishin' Smokin' and god-bothering party rather than with the Greens, which told you all you needed to know about that shower of morons. Three terms and nothing to show for it except being much further down the wrong road(but at least they made heaps more of those, eh cuz...)

The Greens worldwide are a bunch of sellouts. The scumbags in Germany supported the invasion of Iraq which just about sums them up...bloody useless.

Unfortunately most of the "Greens" or "Enviro's" I have met in my life fall into two categories, those driven by ideology who do not care what it takes to achieve that ideology, and those who try to do the green thing because they feel good about themselves for trying. Darn few of them are like myself, I try and always think through the consequences of my actions in environmental terms and figure out the least practical impact or greatest environmental benefit. That is why I stopped supporting Greepeace and similar groups, ideology driven people are not able to make rational choices about how best to achieve their stated goals.

I want a healthier planet, BAU clearly is not the way to go to achieve that. Running around screaming bloody murder is not either, headlines only influence people who care about headlines. Doing a Wilding Pines project or a Pull the Dandelions project will get you headlines, but nothing ultimately is accomplished because in a year or 5 or 10 nature will undo everything you did. This sort of thing just makes me sad at the lack of common sense pervading our entire culture.

[yeahbut]

I want a healthier planet, BAU clearly is not the way to go to achieve that. Running around screaming bloody murder is not either, headlines only influence people who care about headlines. Doing a Wilding Pines project or a Pull the Dandelions project will get you headlines, but nothing ultimately is accomplished because in a year or 5 or 10 nature will undo everything you did. This sort of thing just makes me sad at the lack of common sense pervading our entire culture.

Yep. With most of the 'pest' control programmes, I want to ask the Department of Conservation "so what's the plan here?". As far as I can see, there is no long-term strategy- the programmes will always require the same level of human input and resource cost, no natural equilibrium will be reached.

One of the most frustrating things for me would have to be the attitude towards possums. These animals cause tremendous damage to native forest when left unchecked, as they have no natural predators. DOC's response to this is to carry out regular aerial drops of 1080 poison(lil old NZ is the largest consumer of this poison in the world), it's a mammalian killer, and as there are no native mammals apart from the bat, it is a very effective way of killing rats, mice, possums and also cats and mustelids that eat poisoned animals. However, it's a stupid approach IMO for a couple of excellent reasons. The first is as already mentioned- there's no exit strategy. Poison will have to be dropped, at great expense and in all likelihood, some environmental cost, for ever(or until we go over the peak and this all becomes a silly memory anyway ). The second, and most irritating reason, is that if DOC would just get the hell out of the way, people would take care of the possums in all but the most isolated and extreme areas anyway- for money. Possum fur is quite valuable, it's a high quality fur and is used in a number of ways, in particular at the moment as a blend with a fine sheeps wool for clothing. With a bit of an advertising campaign it's also possible it could become the acceptable face of fur as well- 'wear fur and save the environment' type of thing.

The point is, there are already lots of hunters and trappers out there making good money and controlling possums at the same time. They are held back tho by the fact that their business is made unreliable and inconsistent, because every now and then DOC kills off most of the animals in their area and they have to move, or wait for a recovery in numbers. In essence, there actually is a predator for the possum- humans- and DOC keeps scaring them off. If DOC would just stop the poison drops, and re-direct the money saved to training hunters and trappers, and building up the possum fur industry, we could save money, create employment and business, and introduce a permanent biological control into the ecosystem. Of course, there is basically zero chance of this happening currently. Really freaking annoying.

[Tanada]

I want a healthier planet, BAU clearly is not the way to go to achieve that. Running around screaming bloody murder is not either, headlines only influence people who care about headlines. Doing a Wilding Pines project or a Pull the Dandelions project will get you headlines, but nothing ultimately is accomplished because in a year or 5 or 10 nature will undo everything you did. This sort of thing just makes me sad at the lack of common sense pervading our entire culture.

Yep. With most of the 'pest' control programmes, I want to ask the Department of Conservation "so what's the plan here?". As far as I can see, there is no long-term strategy- the programmes will always require the same level of human input and resource cost, no natural equilibrium will be reached.

You make it sound as if their long term plan is to do just enough to ensure they get to keep their job 'doing something' about the problem...

Could it really be that simple? All those bureaucrats just doing the bare minimum necessary to keep their jobs looking important without actually trying to solve the problems?

[Caffeine]

Wouldn't the most effective way to make an invasive species extinct be to make the exploitation of that species into a profit-making industry?

For example, make a profit-making industry that cuts down pine trees for... furniture, wooden toys, whatever. All the pine trees in New Zealand would be gone in a matter of years. Decades, at most.

Want to make possums extinct? Totally unregulated hunting, and an industry based on possum fur.

If there's one thing humans are good at, it's making other species extinct!

[americandream]

I want a healthier planet, BAU clearly is not the way to go to achieve that. Running around screaming bloody murder is not either, headlines only influence people who care about headlines. Doing a Wilding Pines project or a Pull the Dandelions project will get you headlines, but nothing ultimately is accomplished because in a year or 5 or 10 nature will undo everything you did. This sort of thing just makes me sad at the lack of common sense pervading our entire culture.

Yep. With most of the 'pest' control programmes, I want to ask the Department of Conservation "so what's the plan here?". As far as I can see, there is no long-term strategy- the programmes will always require the same level of human input and resource cost, no natural equilibrium will be reached.

One of the most frustrating things for me would have to be the attitude towards possums. These animals cause tremendous damage to native forest when left unchecked, as they have no natural predators. DOC's response to this is to carry out regular aerial drops of 1080 poison(lil old NZ is the largest consumer of this poison in the world), it's a mammalian killer, and as there are no native mammals apart from the bat, it is a very effective way of killing rats, mice, possums and also cats and mustelids that eat poisoned animals. However, it's a stupid approach IMO for a couple of excellent reasons. The first is as already mentioned- there's no exit strategy. Poison will have to be dropped, at great expense and in all likelihood, some environmental cost, for ever(or until we go over the peak and this all becomes a silly memory anyway ). The second, and most irritating reason, is that if DOC would just get the hell out of the way, people would take care of the possums in all but the most isolated and extreme areas anyway- for money. Possum fur is quite valuable, it's a high quality fur and is used in a number of ways, in particular at the moment as a blend with a fine sheeps wool for clothing. With a bit of an advertising campaign it's also possible it could become the acceptable face of fur as well- 'wear fur and save the environment' type of thing.

The point is, there are already lots of hunters and trappers out there making good money and controlling possums at the same time. They are held back tho by the fact that their business is made unreliable and inconsistent, because every now and then DOC kills off most of the animals in their area and they have to move, or wait for a recovery in numbers. In essence, there actually is a predator for the possum- humans- and DOC keeps scaring them off. If DOC would just stop the poison drops, and re-direct the money saved to training hunters and trappers, and building up the possum fur industry, we could save money, create employment and business, and introduce a permanent biological control into the ecosystem. Of course, there is basically zero chance of this happening currently. Really freaking annoying.

There'll come a time when we will be forced to change. For the time being, you're going to have to resign yourself to the fact that for as long as we can screw cheap oil and plastic pumpkins out of the third world, by force if needs be, we will party like theres no tomorrow. And pretend to play at being green.