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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 20:23:44
by dohboi
Sooooo, if we supply more food to the masses we are demons, and if we do something that is (mis-)interpreted as restricting food to the masses, we are accused of yearning for the murder of billions.

I think we can all just agree now that y'all just hate the idea of anyone suggesting you might want to restrict by one iota your consumption of your precious pound of animal flesh, so anyone who does provide such cogent positions must of course be some kind of spawn of the devil.

Not much use in continuing a conversation with such heads so firmly buried in their own shite.

Have a nice day.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 06:14:59
by Newfie
No, it’s a demonstration of the cunumdrum we are in.

There are no answers let alone “right” answers.

MY point is just that, when someone pushes this or that as “the answer” it is often creating more problems someplace else. It’s inevitable.

What I am arguing against is that there is some remain class that if removed or converted would fix the problem.

Dohboi this is where I see you and Cog as doppelgängers, religious extremism. I probably do that as well at times. I apologize.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 06:43:45
by Ibon
Newfie wrote:MY point is just that, when someone pushes this or that as “the answer” it is often creating more problems someplace else. It’s inevitable.

.


This is why human overshoot is check mate in reference to "solving it" Which is furthermore why the real solutions at the end of the day are the very issues we fear and try so hard to "solve"..... like climate change, pandemics,poverty, starvation, wars, etc.

These are bitter pills for a population educated and socialized that we can have it all.

I think bitter pills are part of the "solution"

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 18:54:32
by Newfie
Yes, and I don’t have any answers to contribute. Regretfully.

I go round and round; what’s the point of beating my head why not just enjoy the party? But something in me raiks against that; giving up, destroying Earth for my off spring and the rest of life.

All very confusing.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 14:50:09
by dohboi
I think there is indeed no 'solution' or 'solutions.'

As M. Mann recently tweeted, we are all f'd...but we still have some control over how badly we (and are progeny) will be f'd going forward.

Not seeing this is a kind of blindness of binary thinking, and very useful if someone wants rationalize why they don't have any personal responsibility to do anything (or to stop doing things that are doing more harm!).

I see a lot of that and other sorts of rationalizations around here. You all are quite good at it!! :-D :-D

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 16:03:46
by Ibon
dohboi wrote:
I see a lot of that and other sorts of rationalizations around here. You all are quite good at it!! :-D :-D


Quite reflective of the population at large. By the way Dohboi can you please remind all of us why your shit dont stink? Thank you.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 17:34:48
by dohboi
Oh, you didn't know??

Vegan shit don't stink!!

:-D :-D :-D

Actually, it's rather true. In the past, when I would alternate some between pure vegan and some meat eating, I could really smell the difference when I went to the head!

But hey, I know I can count on y'all to point out my own rationalizations. It's easier to see them in others than in yourself. Ideally, this could, and at its best is, a primary function of this kind of forum...to call each other out on our bs excuses and rationalizations.

Of course, that process isn't always particularly...pretty. As we've seen on this forum! :)

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 07:05:59
by Shaved Monkey
Vegans fart more than meat eaters does this outweigh any savings in greenhouse gasses we would get by reducing the size of cow herds if more people became vegan?

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 08:39:04
by dohboi
It's true that when you start going vegan, especially from straight omnivory, one tends to become a bit more flatulent.

But most people find that over time you system adjusts, and the eruptions subside.

So no, I don't think that constitutes a notable contribution to the ghg burden. And of course there is always Beano and other such products or home remedies.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 12:20:15
by dohboi
Ah, more off topic false accusations.

Back on topic, though...in my experience, beer drinking causes more flatulence than veganism does.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 04:13:22
by onlooker
The issues of population and ethics aside, the enormous CO2 contribution of Meat and Dairy seems indisputable. A new report
"Meat and dairy companies to surpass oil industry as world’s biggest polluters, report finds"
https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 51871.html

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:11:12
by Newfie
Onlooker,

I don’t think anyone here is disputing the issue. What’s at dispute, at least for me, is cutting out some segment of the population and making them the bad guy, the ones who carry the blame. It’s a convienient way for others to be “holier than thou”.

Humans are human and we have a omniviours diet. That is a fact.

The other point is that any effort put into diverging humanity from a meat diet is just wasted unless we first come to a means of reducing our population to sustainable levels. If you fix the other problems, over population, then this meat eating issue will disappear.

We have tried this before, the Green Revolution was supposed to eliminated hunger on Earth. We just used those caloric gains to increase population and now hunger is even worse.

In summary, yeah meat eating is a factor, but it’s a subordinate factor to greater problems.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:00:46
by SeaGypsy
Veganism is suddenly becoming quite the fashion, not because of environmental concerns directly, but by exposure via social media of the various hideous realities of the meat & dairy industries. Most of the prominent activists were born long after i first 'converted', they are young, passionate, fierce & educated, very effective. I have limited energy for debate, & for social media, but I'm enjoying watching from the sidelines.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:23:36
by onlooker
Newfie, you are right that the overpopulation problem makes all others worse given especially the fixation humans currently have with the "modern good life". And we on this site are understanding the overlapping nature of these LTG problems. You cannot solve one separately from the others. It is both our ways of living and size that are pushing us over the brink.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:39:20
by Ibon
onlooker wrote:Newfie, you are right that the overpopulation problem makes all others worse given especially the fixation humans currently have with the "modern good life". And we on this site are understanding the overlapping nature of these LTG problems. You cannot solve one separately from the others. It is both our ways of living and size that are pushing us over the brink.


This topic is a reminder of how over population is combined with consumption habits in creating the imbalances. Instead of writing reams of posts about eating meat we could have all agreed with this from the beginning and moved on.

If you look deeply into the beef and dairy industry and see how cattle are pumped full of hormones and antibiotics, forced to eat grain, crammed in crowded feed lots, bred to have udders that torture the individual animals, if you take the whole industry and consider this and then you just flippantly put into your mouths and digest the product of this sick process without considering BOTH the lives of the individual animals that suffered as a result and the environmental costs of the whole industry then if you are consequent and honest you really have no choice but to acknowledge that the imbalances this industrial food process causes in your own body reflect perfectly the imbalances in the biosphere.

The problem is not eating meat, it is the nature of the meat that we are eating.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 17:39:14
by dohboi
"What’s at dispute, at least for me, is cutting out some segment of the population and making them the bad guy"

OMG, it should be obvious to anyone with half a clue that this thread is about behavior, not about targeting groups for what they are genetically, for X's sake.

The fact that many millions of humans are, in fact, vegetarians and vegans proves that there is no genetic imperative that forces humans to eat meat and dairy. And there have been such groups for millennia.

If you or other mods are so totally offended by my the intentionally forceful and succinct title of the thread, please feel free to change it to something like:

It would be very nice if most people who are currently eating extraordinary quantities of meat and dairy would kindly consider moving to a more plant-based diet for the sake of the planet (not to mention for their own health* and to avoid involvement in the horror show that is most modern industrial meat production)--those who raise or hunt their own animals flesh are not the primary intended target of this gentle request...

I'm sure that that will stir a whole lot of intense argument and debate! :lol: :lol: :lol:

(If anyone makes it past the first few words!!! :) :) :) )

* See How Not To Die and many other well researched studies and books.

Have a good one! :) :)

(PS: "...meat eating is a factor..." Thank you very kindly for that concession. It's really all I'm saying here.

Note that I did not entitle the thread "Meat Eaters Are The Only Ones Killing The Planet"!! :) :) )

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 18:08:02
by GHung
Having all beef hotdogs on the grill tonight. Meanwhile:

Rising global meat consumption 'will devastate environment'

Analysis suggests eating of meat will climb steeply and play significant role in increasing carbon emissions and reducing biodiversity

Image

Rising global meat consumption is likely to have a devastating environmental impact, scientists have warned.

A new major analysis suggests meat consumption is set to climb steeply as the world population increases along with average individual income, and could play a significant role in increasing carbon emissions and reducing biodiversity.

“What’s happening is a big concern and if meat consumption goes up further it’s going to be massively more so,” said Prof Tim Key, an epidemiologist at the University of Oxford and co-author of the review. “On a broad level you can say that eating substantial amounts of meat is bad for the environment.”

The review, published in the journal Science, found that high levels of meat consumption also have negative health consequences, leading to an increased risk of colorectal cancer and possibly of cardiovascular disease.

The average amount of meat consumed per person globally has nearly doubled in the past 50 years, from around 23kg in 1961 to 43kg in 2014. The increase in average individual meat consumption means total meat production has been growing at a much faster than the rate of population growth, increasing four or fivefold since 1961.

There are recent indications that some countries, including the UK, may have reached “peak meat”. The UK’s 2017 National Food Survey found consumption of raw beef, lamb and pork had fallen by 4.2% and that of meat products including sausages, bacon and poultry by nearly 7% since 2012.

However, middle-income countries, particularly China and others in east Asia, are still seeing a rise. A recent review by the UN gave a projected increase in global meat consumption of 76% by mid-century, including a doubling in the consumption of poultry, a 69% increase in beef and a 42% increase in pork. .......
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... 5-84538173



.... and maybe some steaks tomorrow afternoon, cold beer and homemade pickles as a vegetable to round things out. Beer's a vegetable,, right?

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 19:45:02
by Newfie

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 22 Jul 2018, 23:04:23
by dohboi
“If cattle were a nation, they would rank third behind China and the United States among the world's largest greenhouse gas emitters.”

“Americans eat about 10 billion burgers each year. Replacing 30 percent of the beef with mushrooms would have the same impact as taking 2.3 million cars off the road.”

Should your workplace ban meat?


https://mercury.postlight.com/amp?url=h ... 4902-769ih

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2018, 10:47:32
by JuanP
My wife and I gave up meat and became vegetarians for a year more than a decade ago. I didn't miss it as much as I thought I would. I was raised on beef, and I am a spoiled brat, if there was no meat on my plate I didn't consider that a real meal. Then we gave up on giving up on meat once I reached the conclusion that my actions as an individual were irrelevant on a larger scale. Now, I eat beef a couple of times a month; tonight I am having burgers for dinner. Life is too short!