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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 07:42:11
by Ibon
dohboi wrote:" Veggies will never provide the energy to support the intelligent brain."

Ah, more unsubstantiated claims.

The quality of discussion really does seem to go down hill when one attacks this kind of 'sacred cow' (so to speak :) ).


The quality of the discussion goes down hill when you respond to the dumbest posts and ignore the more nuanced analysis by fellow posters.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 09:14:43
by onlooker
NOTHING is sustainable with 8 billion currently alive.

I am fully aboard the conclusion, that humans are not apt to change very mucn in 50-100 years . And so the only effection resolution will be the OVERSHOOT PREDATOR. That predator will hurt us badly enough to want real change and simultaneously reduce our overpopulation. As Ibon said, we lost the luxury of choice and control when we passed the 2 or 3 billion mark

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 09:47:25
by KaiserJeep
Nothing is in fact more disturbing than people like dohboi that have what really are political beliefs, because they were taught such, and not out of considered and reasoned thought. Such as his attitude that eating meat should be avoided so that we can cram a few more people onto an already mortally overcrowded Earth.

I'd say a great many humans hold such beliefs - even ill-considered and inconsistent beliefs such as dohboi's, because that is what they were taught to believe. The fact that somebody like dohboi can go his entire life, without questioning such inconsistent and nonsensical positions, and even teach such things to others from a position of trust as an educator, is both profoundly disturbing and another nail in our coffin, so to speak.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 10:01:48
by dohboi
"so that we can cram a few more people onto an already mortally overcrowded Earth"

I never said that, it is not my position, and it is not the topic of the thread.

Please stop misrepresenting other people's positions, and even their life history for crisake!

(Of course, all this is just more evidence that JK and company have no rational arguments or relevant data to support their positions, so the are left with the last recourses of scoundrels...rationalizations, hand waving, non-sequiturs, various other fallacies, and now character assassination.

Thanks for proving that this is a truth beyond a doubt that is a truth that cuts you so deep that it drives otherwise mostly rational folks to strike out with wildly irrational and mean positions and arguments. :) )

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 12:22:49
by KaiserJeep
OK, why are you advocating the abandonment of eating meat, if not to use the extra vegan calories to support more people? Because you have never provided any explanation, your thought processes obviously differ from more mainstream people, and none of us can fathom the reason for this ever-so-strange obsession you have with diet.

Simply explain. You have rejected all our explanations, let us hear yours. Make it explicit and include logical justifications for this bizzare behavior. Because all the primates in the world including humans are omnivores.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 12:34:04
by Yonnipun
Ibon wrote:
dohboi wrote:" Veggies will never provide the energy to support the intelligent brain."

Ah, more unsubstantiated claims.

The quality of discussion really does seem to go down hill when one attacks this kind of 'sacred cow' (so to speak :) ).


The quality of the discussion goes down hill when you respond to the dumbest posts and ignore the more nuanced analysis by fellow posters.


http://paulcooijmans.com/evolution/eating_meat.html

The largest brains in human evolution were those of the Cro-Magnons, who were European ice-age hunter-gatherers. Meat is an major source of nutrition in the hunter-gatherer diet. The second largest brains, incidentally, were those of the Neanderthals — also hunter-gatherers — whose diet consisted mainly of meat. Current Western Europeans, according to recent D.N.A. studies, are largely descended from European ice-age hunter-gatherers, but their brains are about 300 cc smaller


Being vegetarian or vegan does not seem to have too many bad effects, and nowadays with agricultural and industrial technology we can make non-meat foods that contain any nutrients we need (except that we have no idea which nutrients we need, and except that some vegetarians are inclined to a "natural" life style and thus confronted with the paradox that a healthy vegetarian diet is only possible thanks to the use of modern technology).


http://paulcooijmans.com/profile.html

Achievement
Creating the world's hardest I.Q. tests attracting over 2000 candidates;

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sat 02 Jun 2018, 16:23:13
by KaiserJeep
Pete, we are in the process of NOT TOLERATING his foolishness and BS.

Please give him space to reply with reasons and reasoning, before calling him what he appears to be.

dohboi, we are waiting for justifications for not eating meat. You have claimed such, and nobody understands what they are.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 05:15:44
by dohboi
More reasons to avoid meat:

Antibiotic resistance could spell end of modern medicine, says chief medic


Prof Dame Sally Davies says action is needed around the world to tackle ‘hidden’ problem that is already claiming lives

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... hief-medic

World Economic Forum 2013 - Antimicrobial Resistance


In the 2013 Global Risks Report, a chapter entitled “The Dangers of Hubris on Human Health” warned about the growing risks associated with complacency towards antimicrobial resistance (AMR). It highlighted two underlying drivers: the overuse and misuse of antibiotics, in both human health systems and livestock management; and the fact that no new classes of antibiotics had been invented since the 1980s. The chapter noted newly emerging resistance to the strongest class of antibiotics, carbapenems. It cited estimates of 100,000 AMR-related deaths in US hospitals and 80,000 in China. The potential economic impact was put at 0.4% to 1.6% of GDP.


and the scale of the problem quantified:-

Huge levels of antibiotic use in US farming revealed
specifically in livestock raising

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... g-revealed

and the response by the EU (under pressure) is to abandon any effective response.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... resistance

Antibiotic apocalypse
...
The UK’s chief medical officer, Dame Sally Davies, has warned that failing to act could lead to a post-antibiotic apocalypse, spelling “the end of modern medicine” as routine infections defy effective treatment.

Some studies predict that antimicrobial resistance could cost $100tn (£75tn) between now and 2050, with the annual death toll reaching 10 million over that period.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 10:59:29
by dohboi
https://www.facebook.com/garytvcom/vide ... DM1Mzk5Ng/

A good breakdown of many of the not-thought-through assumptions expressed here and elsewhere

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 12:38:37
by KaiserJeep
Nonsense. All primates are omnivores. In fact, most are cannibals. When a baby chimp/bonobo/gorilla/baboon is orphanned by the death of the mother, the rest of the troop eats him, entrails and fingerbones and all.

As for the antibiotic resistence, that is happening anyway, has been happening for decades, and meat eating at worst makes it only incrementally more serious.

I would like to know if you are taking the proper nutritional supplements for your vegan diet. I know Vegans - and Hindus - who avoid such because many - in fact most such supplements - contain animal products. Those that do not tend to be sold at premium prices. If you are not taking such supplements, then get a clue about why your thought processes don't resemble mainstream humanity:

However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

and
Compared with lactoovovegetarians and omnivores, vegans typically have lower plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations, higher prevalence of vitamin B-12 deficiency, and higher concentrations of plasma homocysteine (72). Elevated homocysteine has been considered a risk factor for CVD (73) and osteoporotic bone fractures (74). Vitamin B-12 deficiency can produce abnormal neurologic and psychiatric symptoms that include ataxia, psychoses, paresthesia, disorientation, dementia, mood and motor disturbances, and difficulty with concentration (75). In addition, children may experience apathy and failure to thrive, and macrocytic anemia is a common feature at all ages.


If you don't know of the nutritional deficiencies associated with Vegan diets, then read this to start:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

....and take the proper supplements. After a few months of proper nutrition you may regain normal and conventional reasoning processes, as long as you have not been doing this long enough to cause permanent brain damage.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 13:48:09
by Ibon
KaiserJeep wrote:Nonsense. All primates are omnivores. In fact, most are cannibals. When a baby chimp/bonobo/gorilla/baboon is orphanned by the death of the mother, the rest of the troop eats him, entrails and fingerbones and all.



First a great article relevant to this thread on The Atlantic titled "How Humans Became Meat Eaters". I would recommend it for everyone to read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... rs/463305/

Some clarifications on KJ's post. Most apes are omnivores, particularly our closest relatives, Chimpanzees and Bonobos.

Mountain Gorillas on the other hand are almost vegetarians except for a small percentage of invertebrates that they eat. Because their diet is mostly vegetarian they eat massive amounts daily.

Primates which include all monkeys vary wildly in their diets. Here at Mount Totumas we have howler monkeys which are almost exclusively vegetarian and in fact eat almost exclusively leaves, pollen, flowers and some fruit. They have the slowest metabolism of the three species of monkeys here for this reason. Small territories. White-faced Capuchins and Spider Monkeys are high metabolism, acrobatic, have large territories and eat invertebrates, small vertebrates, fruit and leaves.

The most carnivorous primates are Humans followed by Baboons and chimps and bonobos.

There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:06:48
by KaiserJeep
pstarr wrote:Then how do Gorillas source vitamin B12? It would seem intrinsic to primate physiology. Do gorillas eat you-know-what?


Gorillas thrive in wet areas, tropical forests and lushly vegetated mountain highlands. About 3-5% of their diet by bulk and 10-15% of the calories they eat is termites and catapillers. Chimps and bonobos tend to favor ants and termites, but also eat birds, bird eggs, and small mammals. Baboons eat small rodents, birds, and even the newborn of larger animals like antelopes whenever possible.

Animal protein with B12, all.

We would doubtless all be healthier if less than 10% of our diet was meat. But most of us eat far more than that. The Vegans are a fringe group, and suffer the mental abberations of dietary deficiency much worse than Vegetarians who consume dairy products. All adverse impacts can be avoided with modern dietary supplements, but many don't take such.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:15:28
by Yonnipun
There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.


I would not be so sure about it. What fits to one person could be completely wrong for the other one. For example when I eat just one banana my blood sugar goes through the roof shortly after consuming it. I try to eat as low carb as possible.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:32:12
by Newfie
If I don’t eat a banana a day I get heart palpitations.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:33:55
by Yonnipun
We would doubtless all be healthier if less than 10% of our diet was meat


Why do you think that? For example take a look at this guy who eats meat, only meat , and nothing but the meat:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjLUN0oAjhk/?taken-by=shawnbaker1967

505 pounds for 11 reps at the age of 50.

shawnbaker1967I understand physiology better than 99.999% of people, that’s just the way it is- for those of you that think the fact that I had a testosterone test which showed a low number means anything more than a transient reflection of a dynamic system, display an extremely rudimentary understanding of human physiology- Anyone that truly understands how complex of a system humans are will concede there are literally thousands of variables, many of which are still unknown, that play a role in the ultimate function of the system- if you want to worry about numbers, worry about how much fucking weight is in the bar!! #fueledbysteak #carnivorediet #beastmode

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 16:34:13
by Ibon
pstarr wrote:Then how do Gorillas source vitamin B12? It would seem intrinsic to primate physiology. Do gorillas eat you-know-what?


See the following info. I put in bold the important text.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9084900271

Abstract
Vitamin B12 concentrations were determined by radioassay in the housefly, five species of termites, and 17 other phylogenetically diverse insect species. Vitamin B12 was not detected in the housefly Musca domestica, which apparently cannot interconvert propionate and succinate. In contrast, the termite Zootermopsis angusticollis readily interconverts succinate and methylmalonate, and contains high amounts of vitamin B12 (940 pg/mg dry tissue), as do four other species of termites. Experiments involving selective elimination of either gut tract protozoa or bacteria in Coptotermes formosanus indicate that intestinal bacteria are the major source of vitamin B12 in this termite. The other insect species examined have undetectable to moderate amounts of vitamin B12.


Now look at the following Youtube video of a silverback gorilla ripping open a termite nest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwL0Gef8gsc

That answers your question Pstarr!

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 16:37:26
by Ibon
Yonnipun wrote:
There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.


I would not be so sure about it. What fits to one person could be completely wrong for the other one. For example when I eat just one banana my blood sugar goes through the roof shortly after consuming it. I try to eat as low carb as possible.


You are right. There are so many diets possible for humans and so many genetic variations among humans that there is alot of optimization of diet possible based on ones genetics and also environment. If you are not raised drinking milk and dairy and suddenly drink a glass of milk you will puke!

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:06:15
by Ibon
pstarr wrote:So Ibon, the gorillas are omnivores, insectarians. Lots of folks eat witchetty grubs


Aside from a small intake of invertebrates, namely termites and some grubs, gorillas are almost exclusively vegetarian.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:38:34
by Newfie
Luperon, DR

The 1%ers are at it again, destroying the planet.

CE1048EF-2F32-4831-9286-7FDB658A30EC.jpeg

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:39:12
by Ibon
pstarr wrote:Image
Perhaps the B12 requirment is low because gorillas sedentary nature. We would need to eat a lot of the delicacies.


Arthropods, just like jumbo shrimp which western culture accepts. When I lived in Thailand at first I had the western bias that only poor people eat grubs. And then once we hosted a very wealthy thai family from Bangkok at the resort where I worked and the mango trees had an infestation of large scarab beetles. The family got all excited shook the branches with long bamboo and collected the beetles as they fell and quickly blanched them, removed head, wings and thorax and stir fried the juicy abdomens with garlic and kafir lime.

In many cultures it is not the poor and desperate only who eat arthropods but the wealthy as well.

Should I start a thread " EATING ARTHROPODS WILL THE SAVE THE PLANET" ????????????

Nevermind :)