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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 25 May 2017, 15:14:26
by dohboi
Factory Farms Put Climate at Risk, Experts Say in Urging Health Officials to Speak Out

Roughly 200 experts in disciplines from nutrition to animal welfare are calling on the World Health Organization to take a more serious look at the impact of industrial livestock production on human health and the climate.

In a letter sent Monday, the group—which includes former New York Times food writer Mark Bittman and environmentalist Bill McKibben—appealed to the WHO, asking that its next director-general work "to reduce the size and number of factory farms." The WHO's World Health Assembly got underway Monday, and the body will elect a new leader this week.

"As the global health community acknowledges the intertwined nature of planetary and human health, it must also confront the role that factory farming plays in climate change," the letter says.

The group points to predictions that, without a reduction in meat consumption, agriculture—including livestock production and growing grain to feed livestock—is on track to gobble up half the world's carbon budget if countries expect to meet the 2050 target of limiting global temperature rise to less than 2 degrees Celsius. The livestock industry's contribution to greenhouse gases come from direct sources, including methane emitted from the animals belching and their manure, but also from indirect sources, including land conversion and deforestation linked to growing feed.
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https://insideclimatenews.org/news/2205 ... ganization

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 25 May 2017, 15:33:06
by KaiserJeep
Eating meat is not the underlying cause of our problems. There are simply too many people on one planet, and the ecology is dying in myriad ways because of it.

If in fact we were to end the practice of eating meat, it would only provide temporary respite from inadequate food production. Many European and Asians have been raising cattle long enough that beef tastes really good and we can digest cow's milk without stomach upset. That means that we have been eating these creatures for so many thousands of years that we have evolved to optimize cattle as food. Look around the world and find groups similarly adapted to mutton or fish. Admittedly, we are omniverous, and if we diverted all the grains and grasses fed to our food species, we might stretch our agricultural lands - managed with chemical fertilizers/herbicides/pesticides and GMO plants, to feed 10 or 20 or 30 Billion people. That would delay the day when we don't have enough food, but it does NOTHING to save us, it only makes the inevitable tragedy worse.

Learn to apply some critical thinking before publishing a foolish opinion piece. Even though the nominal topic is carbon emissions, the basic problem is human overshoot. That has to be solved before anything else. When you look at it from that perspective, the globe warming is a good thing if it reduces human food production.

We discussed this years ago. "Big Oil" is everybody's favorite target, but they only account for about 17% of atmospheric carbon emissions. The remainder is largely from livestock - about 51% of the total GHG emissions, counting BOTH carbon dioxide and methane.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 25 May 2017, 15:42:14
by onlooker
Yes Dohboi, one of just many strategies that should be employed to reign in our state of Overshoot.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 25 May 2017, 15:47:15
by KaiserJeep
onlooker wrote:Yes Dohboi, one of just many strategies that should be employed to reign in our state of Overshoot.


Same mistake as Doughboy. Decreasing livestock production increases the human food supply and human overshoot.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 25 May 2017, 17:21:06
by Ibon
We have 25 beef cattle that live 18 months until they reach 1000 pounds and they go to the slaughter house. Grass fed organic and these cattle have a brief but idyllic life feeding on pastures at 1900m above sea level. These are happy cattle, no feed lots, no indigestion from eating grain that they did not evolve to eat, no antibiotics because they are spread over 80 acres and are not corralled or forced in high density locations. They get molasses and mineral salt and vaccinated against a couple of diseases.

Why can't we legislate against factory farming. You guys ever drive through texas or oklahoma. You know from 20 miles away you are nearing a feedlot, that place were thousands of animals are kept in super high density concentration camp accommodations, fed enormous amounts of antibiotics, fattened up on corn before slaughtered.
This is animal abuse. Period.

You are what you eat. Remember.

Here is why KJ is right. If we had only a billion on the planet all farmers could keep livestock at the same densities we do here at Totumas. There would be no need for corn feed beef. It could all be grass fed, organic in low density acreage. No antibiotics necessary. No growth hormones.

But Dohboi and Onlooker are also right. We do not need to force cattle in inhumane living conditions just for profit. We could reduce meat production globally.

But you can't do one thing without addressing the other which is what both Onlooker and KJ are ultimately saying here and you are both right.

Lets try to find common ground and not go binary shall we?

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 00:37:48
by Plantagenet
I grilled a wonderful Sirloin steak last night. For seven months a year my deck in covered in snow, so getting to grill int he summer is a big treat.

I'd much rather see six billion fewer people on the planet then give up my grilled steak.

Image

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 00:44:22
by dohboi
I see the usual meat defensiveness is coming out, instead of anyone actually re-examining their priorities. Pretty typical, unfortunately.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 03:51:31
by KaiserJeep
We are evolved to eat meat - we have canine teeth for tearing animal flesh. We also have molars that can grind plants. I eat a few salads but I prefer breads and cereals to whole grains, which I consider bird food.

Those ARE my priorities. If my eating meat means that 30 or so fewer vegan humans can exist, that is a good thing. If I die years earlier because I unwisely ate too much fatty meat and foods containing sugar, that's also a good thing.

The numbers say that if everybody ate healthy foods, they would live longer and healthier lives, and probably reproduce more. That is the exact opposite of saving the Earth, just increasing the human overshoot. It's another example of the typical government action, having the exact opposite of the intended effect. Governments should be acting to decrease the human overshoot, not making people longer-lived and more fertile.

Vegans, vegetarians, and the like are obviously dangerous, and the various governments should place bounties on their scalps. Instead they are taking the worst possible path (from the "save the planet" perspective) and telling us to eat healthy foods and get more exercise and consume fewer drugs and less alcohol.

It is none of their damned business what I eat or how much. Nor anybody else's business if they are not related to me.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 08:02:14
by farmlad
Why is it that when the issue of CAFOs is raised that people automaticly think of beef when its only 22% of global meat consumption? Pork is #1 at 36% and poultry a close 2nd at 35%.

Grazing ruminants have big and vital role in rejenerating our planets grasses which in turn has historically contributed to the greatest store of CO2, namely in the soil of these grasslands. Many of our Agricultural practices have released this stored CO2 back into the atmosphere and is arguably the biggest contributer, surpassing that of the burnning of fossil fuels.

If we want to sequester that CO2 back into the soil where it came from I know of no way more practical and effective then to turn cropped acres back into grasslands and savanahs and reintroduce the grazers back onto the landscape and manage the grazing so that it rejenerates the soil and this requires grazers including cattle sheep bison yaks goats pigs etc. Some of the more widly known examples of rejenerative agriculture are Joel Salatins farm Gabe browns farm And they learned a lot from Allan Savory.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI&t=38s

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 08:51:06
by Cog
It is considerably more healthy for humans to consume meat than carbs.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 08:56:39
by dohboi
Not according to the World Health Organization, especially wrt processed and red meat.

"The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has classified processed meat as a carcinogen, something that causes cancer. And it has classified red meat as a probable carcinogen, something that probably causes cancer."

https://www.cancer.org/latest-news/worl ... ancer.html

This puts them basically in the category of cigarettes, but then you probably think cigarettes don't cause cancer either, and that they're safer than vegetables. :lol: :lol:

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 09:05:09
by Cog
What is not subject to debate is that eating carbs leads directly to Type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases of all types, and obesity.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 11:52:17
by KaiserJeep
The whole topic of this thread is in error. Meat eaters are not killing the planet, we are only displacing more than our own numbers of vegans/vegetarians - which is a good thing for the planet.

This thread should be titled "Vegetable Munchers Are Killing The Planet", because that's more accurate.

Not only is eating a non-meat diet completely unnatural, I think it mentally unbalances a person, causing bizzarre thoughts and behaviors.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 13:36:07
by dohboi
Cog, we can agree if you put it: "...if you eat lots of highly processed and refined carbs, like sugar and white bread, and not much else..."

No one ever got diabetes from a healthy vegan (or vegetarian, for than matter...or just low meat/dairy) diet of mostly whole grains, vegetables and fruits, with nuts, seeds and a few other things for variety and essential nutrients.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 13:42:08
by onlooker
Hope we are not straying but I guess we need to distinguish from healthy for ourselves as opposed to healthy for the planet. Something like what Dohboi described is our traditional diet as we evolved. Designated the Paleolithic diet. So, that is what our bodies are "used" to.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 13:48:15
by farmlad
Dohboi Most research fails to distinguish between red meat and highly processed red meat. Neither does it distinguish between grassfed and grain fed meats. thats like advising to not drink water because some folks in history got cholera .

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 14:34:47
by KaiserJeep
I always thought of "processed" meats generically as cured meat. Ham, Bacon, Sausages, corned beef, cold cuts, etc. If it doesn't come fresh under plastic wrap with a near term expiration date, it's processed meat.

Confession: I LOVE everything on the above list of meats, and right now I am working my way through 40 lbs of Gaspar's Linguica and Chorizo, which are forms of Portuguese sausage, the wife's soul food. She purchased it while we were on Nantucket for the MIL funeral.

Most males in my family check out in their mid-80's. I don't expect I'll be any different, I seem to have all the chronic problems that troubled both my Mother's and Father's families.

Meanwhile, I actually do believe that those that eat a diet completely free of meat/poultry/fish are actually mentally unbalanced, because the mix of amino acids they consume is the incorrect ratio for an omnivore. There is a wide range of foods that can be eaten, but if you don't consume other creatures in some form, you are literally crazy and subject to strange thoughts and feelings.

No, I have no scientific basis for this belief, I just FEEL it to be true.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 15:48:32
by dohboi
KJ, when you write "I always thought of "processed" meats generically as cured meat. Ham, Bacon, Sausages, corned beef, cold cuts, etc. If it doesn't come fresh under plastic wrap with a near term expiration date, it's processed meat." You are certainly correct.

And yes, I too, in my day, have enjoyed all of those, too.

Unfortunately, the rest of your post resorts to unsubstantiated bloviation and typical logical fallacies. There were a number of people who smoked all their lives and lived into their 80's. Such anecdotal evidence is essentially worthless when trying to establish scientifically actual statistical likelihoods and causation.

And the amino acid quip is even more ignorant. It is very, very easy to get the right balance...just eat some beans or other legumes with your grains--as is the basis for most post-ag-rev diets around the world--and you're fine. And there are many other combinations that work as well. Everyone I've ever met who has ever practiced or considered going vegan or vegetarian knows this, even though it's not really much of a problem for most vegetarians.


Maybe if you took two seconds to see if your prejudiced assumptions have some kind of basis in reality before posting, you wouldn't so often come off as talking through your hat here. It's really not hard to check on these things these days, after all. Just some friendly advice! :) :)

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 15:53:10
by Ibon
Are meal worms meat?

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 26 May 2017, 16:02:40
by dohboi
Neither I nor anyone else in the world gives a flying hoot if you or anyone else gets their kicks out of eating meal worms.

Knock yourself out! :-D :-D

(Nice attempt at a red herring, though.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

Neither mealworms, nor purity (which is, of course, impossible anyway...duh), nor the Inuit, nor any of the other things that committed eaters of creatures with faces grasp at to change the subject is relevant to the main point.

That main point being that the main kinds of meat eating done by most people in the developed world (of CAFO raised or finished livestock) are a big part of the global warming problem (and a number of other problems as well...destruction of waterways, lowering efficacy of antibiotic, enormous cruelty...).