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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 15:57:55
by Pops
Newfie wrote:We need to back off partisanship and look towards practical solutions.

OK, you start.
Give one practical solution to "consumerism."

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 16:35:21
by Pops
Acquisition confers status, it has since forever. Ain't no different than the caveman times.
Industrialization and fossil energy brought us mass production and overproduction in turn. The great deflation at the turn of the 19th century led Ford to perfect the production line in the race to the bottom. He was quite successful at "any color as long as it is black" so in their turn GM introduced "model years" and voilá, planned obsolescence.

So, humans want status; acquisition confers status.
Mass production and planned obsolescence feeds the desire.
So then what? A couple of examples:

Limiting population through tisk-tisking sex & babies would never happen. You either outlaw reproduction a la "one child" or invent a way to have your sex and limits too.
The Pill.

Ditto eliminating carbon pollution, ain't gonna happen by tisk-tisk. You either voluntarily tax it to death (LOL), or make a replacement that is cheaper.
P/V & wind.

Ditto consumption, no amount of tisk tisk is going to change what is basically our one bit of instinct. Either tax income, wealth, consumption —everything— to the point none of it is worthwhile or you invent something better, cheaper, more worthwhile.

Don't know what that is.
Maybe it's social darwinism, or mandated leisure, or 90% redistribution, The Purge, anarchy, communism. I don't know but it would need to be as big as the industrial revolution, the pill and RE combined.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 17:11:12
by Newfie
Pops;

OK, that’s pretty easy really. There needs to be an educational campaign to identify the problem and how we can contribute to its cure. It won’t be done over night but nothing will be done without the assent ofnthe population.

First we need to identify the problem. We are in a CONSUMERIST society, not a Capitalist society. Call a spade a spade. Point out the differences and disadvantages to each. It should be simple to appeal to folks intrinsic common sense on small matters; take pre-ripped jeans for example. Perfect poster child.

Of course this kind of thing needs to come from the leadership. Now that could be political, but it could also be social or religious leadership. Many of our great causes have started at the pulpit. It’s a good way to get word out to folks. To make them start thinking. But also it would help if some celiberties caught on with the program, start talking about it. Ophfra would like this I think.

The spiel would be to talk about how consuming less is good for you on many levels; physical, financial, and spiritual. Play up that as long as we are buying, circulating the money, the Man takes his cut on every transaction. We end up with toys that make us feel good for an isntant but the highbthen fades. Whiles as we grow our bank account, or pay down our mortgage we get that long lasting goal of growong something of lasting importance that helps us and our loved ones.

There is a great story here. Small guy revolting against the 1% to take the country and our personal lives back.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 19:14:52
by Pops
Pretty funny newf, I was being serious.
You won't tisk-tisk people into changing what comes instinctively. Look at prohibition, Just Say No, lottery ticket sales, Be Best!
China imprisoned relatives for years to coerce women to submit to forced sterilization. Yet fertility in the US is only 10% higher even with all sorts of incentives and higher standard of living.
So, no, not simple.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 20:37:49
by Ibon
Newfie's idea works for outliers like Cog or myself, two examples from opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, but in reference to frugality and how that can buy you freedom we both share that. But we are both outliers. I was in my early 20's hitch hiking across America and exploring wilderness areas and saying a big FUCK YOU to suburbia and consumer culture already back then. I was arrogant but feral and consequent. When I went yuppie years later, had a family, I swore to play the game to make money in order to buy myself freedom. Only ever bought used cars, payed off mortgages within 5 years, stored nuts. Those nuts was so that I could exit as soon as possible and get back to what I loved. .Which is why I came here to Panama and bought a private reserve and spend my days when I don't have to host guests to absorb myself in nature.

Newfie, there are only 1 in 100,000 Ibons out there.. Already in my 20's I looked out on a sea of suburban humanity and saw degraded human beings. I came up with the term Kudzu Ape not on a whim, ,that name was incubating in me for 40 years before I made it up.

Risking sounding like an arrogant schmuck how are you going to educate the masses of humanity to have my values?

Forget it.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 20:50:14
by Plantagenet
Pops wrote:Acquisition confers status, it has since forever.


Thats very old-fashioned. No one today thinks that having lots of stuff gives one status.

There's even an Alaskan joke about that kind of old-fashioned thinking......you can tell who is rich in Alaska because when the snow melts his yard is totally filled with old refrigerators, junked snowmobiles and old cars and rusty road graders.

Today the new status symbol in America is getting rid of all your possessions. Instead of a crammed bookcase groaning with books, you want empty shelves and a few exquisite possessions. The new status is cleaning out your garage and your closet and getting rid of all the crap.

Its called the Kondo effect, after Marie Kondo....a Japanese lady who wrote a book about how to get rid of your stuff.

the-gurus-of-tidiness-if-you-like-marie-kondo

Cheers!

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 22:01:55
by careinke
evilgenius wrote:Similarly, there should be a lot more research done, and study that can be done as a result of that, aimed at finding the best ways to parent. For it's the parents of children who cause these things. We are used to thinking about them coming from abusive situations, which they often do, but they also come from what we like to call normal homes as well.


The best way to parent, is to first have two parents. Second earn enough that at least one of them can stay home to home school the children and run the household economics. Simple, but not necessarily easy.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 05:33:37
by vtsnowedin
It depends on what your clutter and stuff is. Today a lot of the clutter is toys you no longer use like skies,& exercise machines and way more clothes then you need while in the old days a lot of the stuff were tools and objects needed to run the household like a food canner and the jars and the sausage grinder. You can get rid of your tools if you have everything done for you from mowing the lawn to changing the oil in the car and buy all your food prepared but once you get rid of all that useful stuff you are then dependent on others for the basics of every day life.
You can't be a capitalist without the tools needed for production and I prefer to retain the means to produce at least enough for my own needs. Those tools may sit idle while others will provide at lower cost but I'll keep them ready just in case.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 09:00:02
by Pops
vtsnowedin wrote:It depends on what your clutter and stuff is.

Usually the stuff other people value, LOL

I think it is disingenuous as old people who have already done their consuming to brag about how little we consume. 20 years ago I made 4 times what I make now, I could brag about how I'm doing it to save the world but really it was just more stressful than it was worth.

But, perhaps like Ehrlich, the "solution" is already invented and we just don't realize. Adults can spend 10 hours a day doing what you are right now, gazing at a screen, 20% of teens at least 7 hours. This is profoundly changing us in ways I'm sure we can't even guess.

Facebook is the Matrix
.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 14:44:10
by Ibon
Pops wrote:
Facebook is the Matrix
.



I came to a major realization at one point regarding all of those consumers harnessed to their self induced debt living in their golden cages of suburbia. And that was that the chains that bound them opened up a lot more space for the rest of us. Both physical and mental space.

Facebook is just a further herding of the masses locked into their self induced digital exile. This matrix is deadly but for all of those stuck in it they sure do open up a lot more space for those of us more embedded in organic reality.

And so I come to the same realization, feeling grateful for all of those humans corralled in their digital prisons. It just simply leaves a lot more room for those who stand mostly outside of this trap.

And so I have used up my alloted digital time today with this comment!

One must exercise discipline......

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 17:27:42
by Newfie
Pops wrote:Pretty funny newf, I was being serious.
You won't tisk-tisk people into changing what comes instinctively. Look at prohibition, Just Say No, lottery ticket sales, Be Best!
China imprisoned relatives for years to coerce women to submit to forced sterilization. Yet fertility in the US is only 10% higher even with all sorts of incentives and higher standard of living.
So, no, not simple.


I was also being serious.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 17:34:07
by Newfie
Ibon,

You know that Consumerisim did not exist until it was invented and marketed.

The depression children, like our parents, had it in their marrow. Do you have any clue how many 1 gallon mayo jars I threw away cleaning out my Dads shop?

This is a very plastic concept, it’s not encoded in our DNA, we have changed before, we can change again. In fact we WILL change, better to do it early and avoid the pain.

Get Ophra behind the idea, see what happens then.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Wed 03 Apr 2019, 21:03:30
by dohboi
Good points, Newf.

There are potential dangers, of course, but I think a high tax on add revenue would help slow down consumerism. Also expanding the range of adds that are banned from an expanding range of venues. All adds clearly aimed at kids should be completely banned.

Other kinds of product promotions have to be looked at as well, of course.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 00:09:47
by Cog
Never met a Democrat yet who didn't want to increase taxes on something or somebody. Must be some sort of prerequisite to be a Democrat. Course they love more government and more government requires more taxes. God forbid that anyone could engage in commerce or consumption without a tax on it.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 00:52:04
by vtsnowedin
Newfie wrote:Ibon,

You know that Consumerisim did not exist until it was invented and marketed.

.

Naah! It is as old as stone age hunters swapping part of their kill with the old man that spent his days knapping out flint points.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 04:15:15
by Yonnipun
China did quite well with their one child policy...but then they realized that there are not enough taxpayers to support pensioners and get all the thing going so they ended it. It happens in every country that has a negative population growth rate. One family has to have 3 child to a population to be sustained. AI and robots could change it in the future but I do not belive that rich people would share the wealth with poor people because rich people are often the greediest. They would not give a single penny for the poor. That is why I think basic income will not come, they would rather let the poor starve to death. I on the other hand would give basic money to everyone on the condition that they would not breed like rabbits.
The smartest man on the planet- Chris Langan - has said, that breeding should not be a right but a privilege. He flat out supports eugenics. I do not support forced sterilization that is why I support giving basic income to those who let them get voluntarily sterilized. If you do not have children then you basically have no taxpayers who could support you in your retirement.
Here is what Langan thinks about overpopulation and the solution( starts 1.20 min) He has one in a billion intellect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=117&v=QA0gjyXG5O0

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 07:28:21
by Ibon
vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:Ibon,

You know that Consumerisim did not exist until it was invented and marketed.

.

Naah! It is as old as stone age hunters swapping part of their kill with the old man that spent his days knapping out flint points.


What is interesting about your example is the balance in the exchange of goods and services with no banker in the middle.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 07:35:00
by Ibon
Newfie wrote:Ibon,

This is a very plastic concept,


No pun intended right? Haha.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 07:43:33
by Ibon
Newfie wrote: it’s not encoded in our DNA, we have changed before, we can change again. In fact we WILL change, better to do it early and avoid the pain.



Actually I thought I was the optimist on this site all these years! I have always made the claim that we should not underestimate the potential of humans to culturally adapt to constraints.

In spite of my obvious arrogance and disdain toward the current crop of Kudzu Apes, I do actually believe that the bottle neck coming up not only reduces the quantity of humans but will subsequently increase the quality of those who remain. Quality not so much in the Darwinian sense but more in the cultural projection.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2019, 07:45:34
by Ibon
We will know when we have returned to the right balance of consumption when the shovel in your garage is made to last a lifetime and is a tool you cherish.