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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 25 Mar 2019, 14:14:32
by Outcast_Searcher
Cog wrote:All other solutions I'm hearing here, rely on the overbearing and necessarily arbitrary judgment of humans. I trust the planet a lot more than humans to form that judgment.

But many of us would say destroying the biosphere for anything larger than a mouse, or perhaps a cockroach, is too high a price to pay.

If dealing with that requires some people to be "overbearing" and "arbitrary", that's unfortunate, but consuming all we can, even as it destroys the climate is arbitrary too, even if it fits into the mold of "don't bother me, I'm consuming all I can" that most people prefer.

You can have capitalism and taxes on destructive things. Those aren't mutually exclusive, so don't worry, I'm not suggesting ending capitalism. Just that we tax problematic consumption for the biosphere (like GHG production), not good things like productive work via income taxes.

Note: BOTH forms of taxation would tend to be progressive re higher level of income -- but higher income people who choose to live fairly green lives could have a very low rate of taxation, something I would think you would like.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 25 Mar 2019, 14:27:40
by Newfie
Cog wrote:@Newfie I have suggested the same solution repeatedly. Admittedly, it is not one that is in vogue here. My solution is to do nothing at all. Nature and lack of resources will let us know when we have exceeded the limits of the planet to support us all. The planet is a neutral arbiter of our future and human decision making just mucks up the works. Now it could be that price alone, for rare and becoming rarer resources, will force a reaction of lower consumption and alternative energy. After all, if you can't afford it, you can't buy it. End of consumerism as you are desiring.

All other solutions I'm hearing here, rely on the overbearing and necessarily arbitrary judgment of humans. I trust the planet a lot more than humans to form that judgment.


Cog,

Yes I’ve heard your argument to do nothing. I do not find it conviencing, although I suspect that’s exactly what will occur. That does not make it right.

And it has a certain degree of merit, “overbearing and me necessarily arbitrary judgement of humans” strikes a chord with me.

If the changes taking place were occurring on a sufficiently long scale, sufficiently slowly, then perhaps the “do nothing” approach would work. I hear it a lot like saying “evolution will provide an answer.”

The difficulty with that approach is multiple. Evolution is a reactionary force. There are random varriants, hit and miss, very incremental. Species go extinct because they can not change fast enough.

And this is doubly important with climate change because we are causing changes that have long term consequences. CO2 hangs around for a very long time. Nature, evolution, has no adaptive feature to adjust due to future changes. Humanity has, supposedly, developed the ability of foresight, to predict the future. But what good is it if we don’t use it?

Im reminded of the old saw about the guy in a flood. Got a notice flood was coming, “God will provide.” Police game by to take him out, “Gos will provide.” CG cake in anhelo to take him off his roof, “God will provide.” When he met his maker he asked “Why did you forsake me.” God replied “I sent you warnings, a ride, and a helo. What more do you want?”

We have been given/developed the ability to see the consequences of our actions. What more do you want?

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 25 Mar 2019, 15:03:13
by onlooker
I do not buy that. We are a species in disarray and totally misguided. Was that inevitable maybe so. But considering what is at stake, to simply continue as is and reducing our planet to an unlivable unhealthy trash can is simply a cop out by our species.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Mon 25 Mar 2019, 21:57:58
by ralfy
Limits to growth will likely help climate change end it.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 00:43:08
by jupiters_release
"Ending CC" that's rich, ya'll stuck in bargaining mode for years. What hubris and delusion in this late hour.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 02:07:16
by careinke
onlooker wrote:
Yonnipun wrote:I have said many times that voluntary sterilization is the answer. Give them money, basic income for everyone who lets themselves sterilize. Money , money, money is the answer just for everything. It even keeps the negative eroei shale oil going. Basic income is inevitable in the future because AI takes most jobs anyway. Those who want to have a family need to get a job and provide for their family by themselves. Simple as that.
Btw most men in their prime time are incels( involuntary celibates) in todays society . They only get a chance when a woman hits a wall and is way out of her prime. If they decide to reproduce the offspring is doomed due to bad genes and old age of both parents.

Sounds good for the rich countries but what about the poor ones?


They are even cheaper! It's got to be way cheaper to buy a sterilization of someone who's yearly wages are less than $300/year than an individual in a first world country. I'll bet it could be funded privately.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 02:43:06
by Newfie
jupiters_release wrote:"Ending CC" that's rich, ya'll stuck in bargaining mode for years. What hubris and delusion in this late hour.


Yes, there is no ending AGW. We are already stuck with consequence for a long, long time.

But no use in making it worse than we must. Efforts may not work out, unlikely even. But one never knows till one tries.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 10:50:37
by dohboi
Actually, I agree with Cog, but not in the way he means it. What he doesn't see is that his idea of 'doing nothing' is actually doing massive amounts...of damage.

But if we really had a 'Do Nothing' movement, it could include:

Do nothing in the direction of having kids
Do nothing in the direction of flying
Do nothing in the direction of eating meant and dairy
Do nothing in the direction of consuming crap
Do nothing in the direction of driving ICE vehicles

Pointed in the right directions, we really do need a lot of 'Doing Nothing.' But capitalism mostly encourages us to do all of the above. Classic socialism may do the same, but at least perhaps not as effectively. So back to Newf's excellent points and questions on how to proceed.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 17:06:03
by Newfie
Dohboi,

To engage in a pendantic argument.....Because Capitalisim does have a focus on high efficiency and productivity I think is false to blame our situation totally on Capitalisim or to say it has no role in the future. Consumerisim must be eradicated, but we need high effiency and productive systems to sustain ourselves. Not only, there are times and places for Socialisim as well: basic health care and in certain utilities come to mind.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 17:30:41
by Yonnipun
Do nothing in the direction of having kids
Do nothing in the direction of flying
Do nothing in the direction of eating meant and dairy
Do nothing in the direction of consuming crap
Do nothing in the direction of driving ICE vehicles


Who else is absolutely afraid of flying? I went to the vacation in January and on the airplane I could not get myself not thinking about how this can of metal full of complex electronics, hydraulics etc is only one simple problem away from complete collapse. I know that on paper it is the safest transportation mean but I just can not relax on the airplain.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Tue 26 Mar 2019, 21:09:29
by clif
But if we really had a 'Do Nothing' movement, it could include:


Not invading Iraq, since they had NOTHING to do with 9-11 ...... too late, Bush/Cheney & co screwed to pooch on that one, and we still haven't seen the end of that fiasco.

Staying out of Venezula because it is NONE of out gawd-damnned business ......

Those would be gold......

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Wed 27 Mar 2019, 04:06:19
by Newfie
Yup, airplanes are complex systems. And if you focus on what can go wrong you will be a wreck. You have to let that go, focus on something else.

Think about it logically for a bit, traveling down the highway you need to trust every other driver you pass to not make a really stupid mistake. And then you see people reading and applying makeup while driving, yikes! No sane person would expose themselves to the risk.

But we do it because we have become accustomed to it. Because we don’t think about it. Because it’s “normal” in our society. It’s just an adaption.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Thu 28 Mar 2019, 18:07:14
by onlooker
Yes, do what Dohboi says. Whereby, we are not going to commit a huge genocide by ceasing all FF Production. But we are going to try to not do all Dohboi put on that list. The problem as we have already discussed is people are NOT voluntarily going to stop having children unless motivated or forced to. And the rest of the solution as Ibon alluded is it seèms now inevitable , our circumstances have summoned the Overshoot Pedator or if you wish the 5 horsemen of the Apocalypse

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Fri 29 Mar 2019, 13:47:54
by Newfie
So now you need a personal plan of survival for yourself and family.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 11:35:33
by evilgenius
Newfie wrote:While it’s clear, or should be, that our current economic model is truly screwed up and destroying Earth that observation in itself solves no problem. To say “End Capitalisim” is just another version of “White boys suck!” jingoistic blame propaganda.

What is a far more interesting conversation would be “What should we change?”

IMHO Capitalisim per se is less the problem than Consumerisim. Consumerisim evolved out of Capitalisim when the industrialist and economists figured out, about 120 years ago, that our basic needs for happiness were within reach. They needed a new motivator to keep the furnaces blasting. Enter Planned Obsolesence and Consumerisim. Plastic knives and pre ripped jeans. “Don’t stitch it, ditch it.” (Huxley - Brave New World)

So that is where I focus my attention, why are we so driven for frivolous treats? My Wife thinks the answer lies in addiction therapy. Like cocaine aquiring some new flashy provides a momentary high, then there is a down, to be repaired by a new high. You are hooked.

Far beyond the opioid crisis we have a consumptive disease, in all senses of the word.

How we fix that is truly interesting. It’s a question less of economics than values. What eventually evolves remains to be seen.

I think a great deal of addiction is down to psychological harm perpetrated upon people when they were young, or still forming in some way. Not everybody has an addictive personality. But it also isn't hard to lure people into such a lifestyle, as we would call consumerism, to replace a void. People cope with the harm perpetrated upon them in various ways, and some are successful enough at it that they don't suffer from addiction, unless it is imposed upon them.

To that end, it would be much better to talk about family planning than ending capitalism. People should enter into parenting with the understanding that what makes it worth having a child is the wanting of that child, not the fact it was imposed upon them by a mistake or that a couple's view of such things was to play darts and have children if they hit the bullseye. Similarly, there should be a lot more research done, and study that can be done as a result of that, aimed at finding the best ways to parent. For it's the parents of children who cause these things. We are used to thinking about them coming from abusive situations, which they often do, but they also come from what we like to call normal homes as well.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 11:47:17
by Newfie
Evil,

There is probably something to that but it’s such a long hard goal to improve parenting skills that it is really not in my agenda.

And note; I didn’t say end Capitalisim, I said end Consumerisim. Let’s stop pushing the drug, as we did with cigarette and drink.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 11:53:20
by onlooker
But Newf, how can you end Consumerism without ending Capitalism?. Afterall, at its core Capitalism espouses profit making, personal property, money etc

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 12:52:41
by Cog
You do that by pushing saving and investing which is pretty much the opposite of consuming. Capitalism is still involved but the outcomes on a personal level are much different.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 14:39:22
by Newfie
onlooker wrote:But Newf, how can you end Consumerism without ending Capitalism?. Afterall, at its core Capitalism espouses profit making, personal property, money etc


I’m not sure how to do it Cog seems to have a handle on it, at least in part.

Given the extreme th of our problems, not just climate change, we need the best solution possible for each issue. I don’t care which -isim applies; as long as it’s the best one for that particular situation.

We need to back off partisanship and look towards practical solutions. That is task enough.

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2019, 15:48:45
by Pops
Yonnipun wrote:I know that on paper it is the safest transportation mean but I just can not relax on the airplain.

was flying once with my wife. She was looking out the window at the clouds. At one point she turned to me with huge wide eyes and said in a whisper:
"we're going backwards"

I'm giggling right now thinking about it, softly so she doesn't ask why. Luckily she doesn't post on here ...