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climate change "existential" threat to humanity

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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Mon 30 Oct 2017, 10:58:13
by onlooker
asg70 wrote:
onlooker wrote:Related to what Dissident stated, the iron clad 2nd law of thermodynamics Entropy manifestng as decay and disorder is evident throughout the Cosmos over time. To expect human societies to be spared is naive.


What we've been good at is not so much escaping entropy altogether but kicking the can down the road. Obviously that reaches a point of diminishing returns but it's really the only hedge humanity has since we obviously can't convince people not to breed.

Good point Asg

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2017, 14:38:49
by phaster
dohboi wrote:Sooooo, you think the 'free market' should run everything, but you are aghast at traffic jams.

Do you think they would be better without any traffic laws?


dissident wrote:To believe that laws and regulations are some nefarious ploy is also pure tin foil hat nonsense. The real problem is that laws and regulations are suboptimal for the same reason that the system will never evolve into an optimal state by itself. It does not help when both sides of the political spectrum are trying to change them to suit their own preferences. Optimal laws and regulations do not have a political shade.


The (fickle) market at the end of the day (or trade) is the price whatever the majority want to believe (irregardless of math and physics)

My main point posting this thread was to illustrate from the onset the math (and portfolio strategy) is wacky!!!

This then leads to various consequences w/ the system because the laws of physics don't revolve around fickle human self-interest

Image

...when you hear concerns about public pensions being underfunded, understand that ensuring 100 percent funding isn’t critical to the healthy functioning of a public pension system

http://www.TinyURL.com/PensionRebuttal

...Today’s public plan actuaries serve their clients, who want lower liabilities and costs, even at the expense of future taxpayers and other stakeholders.

Plans are in trouble. Every year they are in deeper trouble. Many taxpayers are aware that state and local government pension plans are underfunded. They generally aren’t aware just how dire the situation is.

Good numbers don’t assure success, but bad numbers lead to bad decisions and may invite disaster.

http://www.TinyURL.com/OptimisticMath



Incidentally was also trying to point out that the cost of being pro-actice is much, much, much lower than being re-active

As far as tin foil hat "law" non sense, IMHO its the way public pensions are set up and managed ,... basically in California its no different than greedy/reckless wall street banks who kept the winnings and gave tax payers the bill for their reckless losing strategy!

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Tue 31 Oct 2017, 15:00:11
by dohboi
"price whatever the majority want..."

Except it's not really a majority, but those with the most money to do most of the purchasing, not to mention those with the money and power in the position to sway public opinions and tastes.

But most of your other points are well taken.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:51:09
by phaster
dohboi wrote:
"price whatever the majority want..."

Except it's not really a majority, but those with the most money to do most of the purchasing, not to mention those with the money and power in the position to sway public opinions and tastes.


guess I should have stated

"price whatever the majority want..." (of players w/ access)

Like the banking subprime cluster frack, the players causing the "existential" threat to humanity are using other people money.

This time the root of the problem is MANAGEMENT (federal, state and local government "politicians") and LABOR (i.e. "public employee union leaders" AND their supporters) are essentially unaccountable monopolies that have a symbiotic ass kissing relationship.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investing scam promising high rates of return with little risk to investors. The Ponzi scheme generates returns for older investors by acquiring new investors.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp

    where

    translate.google.com "older investors" = "public employee unions" AND "politicians"

    translate.google.com "new investors" = more burden placed on "tax payers"




FWIW given


asg70 wrote:
onlooker wrote:Related to what Dissident stated, the iron clad 2nd law of thermodynamics Entropy manifestng as decay and disorder is evident throughout the Cosmos over time. To expect human societies to be spared is naive.


What we've been good at is not so much escaping entropy altogether but kicking the can down the road. Obviously that reaches a point of diminishing returns but it's really the only hedge humanity has since we obviously can't convince people not to breed.


The scientific analogy (in place of kicking the can down the road) is,... its akin to pressure being built up on a tectonic plate.

In other words the ground is steady for the moment BUT the majority will be hurt, perhaps even be wiped out when the strain on the existing system gives way (i.e. when TSHTF)


See "flow chart" which illustrates overall "existential" problem...

http://www.TinyURL.com/DifferentDay

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 12:20:46
by KaiserJeep
Still, the whole Climate Change debate is a rathole with no purpose. I think the whole controversy is a red herring, because the climate is warming, has been warming since the last Ice Age receded, and will go on warming for another 1200-12,000 years until the next Climatic Optimum, regardless of anything mankind can do. I also believe that any contribution from the activities of mankind is minimal compared to the natural forces at work.

Furthermore, as I have stated, the point is moot. The world will continue to warm, regardless of what mankind does. So is there ANY CHANCE AT ALL that any of you will ever abandon the debate, knowing there is NOTHING THAT CAN EVER BE DONE?

Climate Change never was anything more than a symptom of the human population overshoot. Since the primates all act the same way in the face of an emergency, which is to breed like rabbits, things are never getting better on this ball of dirt. This used to be a nice place until 7.5B Kudzu Apes started crapping all over the place, and it's never going to improve, ever.

Time to leave.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 12:35:17
by Ibon
KaiserJeep wrote: This used to be a nice place until 7.5B Kudzu Apes started crapping all over the place, and it's never going to improve, ever.

Time to leave.


Well, there are generations emerging during the correction of human overshoot that will disagree with you. They will in fact resent both the damage our generations have done and maybe even more the defeatist sentiment you are expressing. Here is what they will say:

"You fucked up our world and then you wash your hands and say it sucks".

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 12:40:02
by Newfie
Phaser wrote:

So the big question is what happens if various public pensions “fail” and severely weakens the (global) economy? Then shortly thereafter climate change requires large amounts of political, social and/or financial capital to build up various infrastructure (for human beings to adapt)?


It's an interesting question. I don't think there is any high confidence answer. To what extent is the global economy weakened? Are there more financial tricks they can play to prop up the system.

I no longer believe our money system has any intrinsic value. So I can see a scenario, should things go bad enough, where some new global monetary system is instituted.

But at the end of the day the USA/Canada are rich in area or land, water. We have relative low population densities.

Our individual standard of living will tank, not so much as other places.

That's my guess.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 14:42:28
by Ibon
KaiserJeep wrote:
Perhaps they will retrieve some of the stunning Lepidoptera from Mt. Totumas, and name a habitat after the place.



You asked for it KJ !

http://blog.mounttotumas.com/?p=2940

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 15:40:54
by dohboi
Well, there are generations emerging during the correction of human overshoot that will disagree with you. They will in fact resent both the damage our generations have done and maybe even more the defeatist sentiment you are expressing. Here is what they will say:

"You fucked up our world and then you wash your hands and say it sucks".


Nicely put. How anyone can not see the blindingly obvious (at least once presented) conclusion you present, is beyond me. But so very many do. :cry:

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 16:15:38
by KaiserJeep
How anyone can ignore the blindingly obvious fact that regardless of what mankind does, the world will continue to warm, is beyond me. Then there is the inescapable fact that with natural warming occurring, the evidence of warming is NOT evidence that the bogus AGW theory has any validity at all.

Finally, the Climatic Optimum for this Ice Age cycle will be reached in another couple of thousand years, give or take a few thousand. Do you plan on being around, to say "I told you so!", or are you under the impression that if the few AGW fanboys can convince the vast majority of us who do not believe your crank theory, that any difference would result?

Time to put up or shut up. How many of you AGW believers have established the sincerity of your climate beliefs by:

1. Minimizing the use of FF's. I am down to less than 100g of gasoline and a few units of natural gas, mainly for cooking.
2. Generating more renewable electrical energy for the grid than you consume. As of this morning, I am + 2344 kWh for 2017.

I could go on, but you get the idea. You either believe the AGW theory, and do all you can do to mitigate it, or you don't.

I DON'T BELIEVE. As much as that offends your sensibilities, it's a fact. Furthermore, I have my views about idiots who believe in a crackpot theory based on nonsense instead of science. But I do believe that we are in deep, far over our heads, when we run out of FF's cheap enough to burn. So I do everything I can do to conserve, which as it turns out, is a lot more than most of you "true believers" are doing.

Get over yourselves. I don't know if Nero and his lyre is apocryphal or not:
Image
...but I am certain that most of you crackpots will do nothing but argue as the world naturally warms.
Image

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 17:03:21
by dohboi
Wrong again, of course. In theory, at least, humans could immediately stop producing any more ghgs, then work furiously to re-sequester massive amounts of CO2. Yes, we would still warm for a little while, but since CO2 is the essential 'thermostat,' if atmospheric concentrations could be reduced, we could turn down the temperature of the planet.

Of course, KJ is likely using 'alternative physics' here to make this and so many other claims, so...maybe we should leave him in that little playpen he so enjoys all by himself. :)

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 18:33:52
by KaiserJeep
KJ is completely anchored in reality. Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. Secondly, the available methods of carbon sequestration also require expending massive amounts of energy. Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs.

So unless you have a plan, you need to move on. Anybody can say "We need to...." and state any number of impossible goals. That doesn't comprise a plan, a statement of reality, or anything else. Just a few words of hot air.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 19:09:13
by GHung
KaiserJeep wrote:KJ is completely anchored in reality. Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. Secondly, the available methods of carbon sequestration also require expending massive amounts of energy. Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs.

So unless you have a plan, you need to move on. Anybody can say "We need to...." and state any number of impossible goals. That doesn't comprise a plan, a statement of reality, or anything else. Just a few words of hot air.


"Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. "

False. Humans existed for millennia on nothing more than sunlight.

"Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs."

False. A lot of folks are concerned about climate change, even 20% of Republicans.

Image

Globally?

Image

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 19:41:41
by onlooker
Just because tackling climate change seems such a daunting challenge does NOT mean that humanity should ignore the threat. In fact the threat is becoming a clear and present immense danger to all life on this planet as CO2 emissions go up. So, how is KJ anchored in reality if he refuses to admit in our immense contribution to the problem. Sequestration at this stage seems futile but perhaps we can come up with other methods of removal. We have no choice now but to attempt removal even as Geoengineering offers no guarantees, can be quite expensive and brings risks with it. But what choices do we have. We seemed always to get bogged down because solutions are NOT forthcoming. So, I have reluctantly attached myself to Ibon's assessment that the consequences among which will be a sizable die off of the human population as well as a true appreciation of what is at stake, may be the only method to salvage a livable planet for our descendants and other higher forms of life.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Fri 03 Nov 2017, 22:53:34
by dissident
Cute how deniers trot out popularity as some sort of litmus test for the validity of climate science. What a retarded notion. About 97% of the global population does not have the education to critically understand the science and evaluate its merit. Their opinions are not relevant. In fact, their opinions are determined what the mass media propaganda factory spews at them. The mass media has been pushing the BS narrative that scientists are split on climate change and make this lie plausible by usually pairing of a scientist against some denier in a "debate". This is the same as pairing off a Holocaust denier against an actual informed historian.

But it looks like the mass media is easing off on servicing its corporate sponsors as the world slides into climate disaster. Nevertheless, the damage is done. KJ and other dimwits who think that their opinion outweighs actual education and understanding, can be happy that substantial action is delayed. I suspect KJ is some bitter senior citizen not long for this world who could give a f*ck about the future. KJ should go and wank himself silly with his hate somewhere else.

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2017, 14:48:52
by dohboi
Thanks, G, ol, and dis. Good points all!

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Sat 04 Nov 2017, 16:13:53
by onlooker
let-s-crash-the-global-economic-system-t72918.html

I think members should revisit this excellent thread created by Careinke. This is because another Consequence that eventually will happen is an end to our modern Industrial Civilization. Kaiser, says that is the worse thing that can happen and we should try and prevent it at all costs. Well in this linked thread, Care is making the opposite case. We need for our Industrial Civilization to end as soon as possible. Yes that will entail tremendous discontinuity and hardships and people will die. But the alternative is allowing CO2 emissions to continue to be emitted as it is becoming quite plain to see that humanity has no intention of stopping. It is also about stopping the discharge of all the poisions associated with modern Industrial civilization, poisons that among other damages are killing off important insects like bees and in general poisining the entire biosphere to the detriment of most life on Earth. So the worse consequence of this is a sizable human die off but that is precisely what stands as maybe the only effective response to our monstruous impact on our planet. You can bank on saving a tiny tiny portion of humanity out in space or on a way to save the miraculous life sustaining properties of our native planet. I chose and hope for the latter so that the remaining humans and other life can start anew on a planet that will heal itself eventually

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 12:05:44
by phaster
GHung wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:KJ is completely anchored in reality. Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. Secondly, the available methods of carbon sequestration also require expending massive amounts of energy. Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs.

So unless you have a plan, you need to move on. Anybody can say "We need to...." and state any number of impossible goals. That doesn't comprise a plan, a statement of reality, or anything else. Just a few words of hot air.


"Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. "

False. Humans existed for millennia on nothing more than sunlight.

"Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs."

False. A lot of folks are concerned about climate change, even 20% of Republicans.


is there a second point??

whatever, skimming the suggested thread,...



I think its very, vary important to keep a working monetary system (in the global economy) because w/ out one its impossible to build large infrastructure projects (to adapt to a world where there is global warming)

WRT KJ, as I see things he is like the pig that thought things out and built the robust brick house AND is dismayed by the other pigs who only built flimsy structures out of straw and wood (if at all)

dissident wrote:...About 97% of the global population does not have the education to critically understand the science and evaluate its merit...


Sadly we are where we are because 97+% of the global population does not understand the big picture or the consequences (or made any serious effort to do so)

So the first step should be to try and tell the complex story in simple terms (perhaps with basic diagrams) so that even an idiot politician (with Attention Deficit Disorder) might grasp then acknowledge the problem

IMHO think I've summarized the big picture in two pages, basic details of which could be explained in a few minutes... (see PDF link below)

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 15:57:09
by GHung
phaster wrote:
GHung wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:KJ is completely anchored in reality. Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. Secondly, the available methods of carbon sequestration also require expending massive amounts of energy. Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs.

So unless you have a plan, you need to move on. Anybody can say "We need to...." and state any number of impossible goals. That doesn't comprise a plan, a statement of reality, or anything else. Just a few words of hot air.


"Firstly, the very existence of humans requires the continued generation and use of energy. "

False. Humans existed for millennia on nothing more than sunlight.

"Thirdly, it really and truly is a fact that nobody gives a particular damn about climate change, except a few oddballs."

False. A lot of folks are concerned about climate change, even 20% of Republicans.


is there a second point??

whatever, skimming the suggested thread,...



I think its very, vary important to keep a working monetary system (in the global economy) because w/ out one its impossible to build large infrastructure projects (to adapt to a world where there is global warming)

WRT KJ, as I see things he is like the pig that thought things out and built the robust brick house AND is dismayed by the other pigs who only built flimsy structures out of straw and wood (if at all)

dissident wrote:...About 97% of the global population does not have the education to critically understand the science and evaluate its merit...


Sadly we are where we are because 97+% of the global population does not understand the big picture or the consequences (or made any serious effort to do so)

So the first step should be to try and tell the complex story in simple terms (perhaps with basic diagrams) so that even an idiot politician (with Attention Deficit Disorder) might grasp then acknowledge the problem

IMHO think I've summarized the big picture in two pages, basic details of which could be explained in a few minutes... (see PDF link below)



The second point ( Secondly, the available methods of carbon sequestration also require expending massive amounts of energy) seemed valid enough.

Meanwhile:

As Syria joins Paris climate agreement, US stands alone
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/ ... index.html

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postPosted: Tue 07 Nov 2017, 15:59:50
by GHung
As Syria joins Paris climate agreement, US stands alone
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/ ... index.html

Washington (CNN)The United States is now a party of one in its stance on climate change.
Syria will join the Paris climate agreement, leaving the US as the only country in the world not signed on to the landmark climate deal.
Syrian officials announced their intention to ratify the accord at the UN Climate Change Conference (COP23) in Bonn, Germany, on Tuesday.
"I confirm that the Syrian Arab Republic supports the implementation of Paris climate change accord, in order to achieve the desired global goals and to reflect the principles of justice and shared responsibility, but in accordance with the capabilities of each of the signatories," Syria's Deputy Minister of Local Administration and Environment M. Wadah Katmawi said.....
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