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NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Yearly

NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Yearly

Unread postby steam_cannon » Mon 28 Jul 2014, 17:57:41

Here's a disturbing article from NASA, the odds of a Carrington-class AKA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Event Risk is 1.2% Per Year over the next ten years. So the risk for a solar super storm that would wipe out much of our electrical systems has been calculated to be 12% over the next ten years or 1.2% per year. This analysis happened after combining historical data with a 2012 Carrington level solar storm that hit a satellite far from earth, (the Stereo-A solar research satellite) but that solar storm missed the earth by a few weeks orbital distance. The earth has been hit before by such a storm, the last time the earth was hit by such a storm was the 1859 Carrington event where a solar flare of "Carrington" strength hit Earth and caused fires from burning telegraph lines. Since 1859 we have built an infrastructure that is much more significant then the telegraph lines of the past, so the risks we face from such a storm are most likely greater.

My opinion: 1.2% per year is pretty high risk for an earth wide civilization destabilizing event. Widespread failure of the electrical grid would have a major impact on water availability, oil production, usage and everyday life and likely for months. A modern service economy such as the United States would see massive disruptions. Further, if I was planning a risk analysis for any major investment or system, I would be very tempted to factor in this NASA report (at least for my own version of the analysis).

science.nasa.gov wrote:NASA: Near Miss: The Solar Super storm of July 2012

In February 2014, physicist Pete Riley of Predictive Science Inc. published a paper in Space Weather entitled "On the probability of occurrence of extreme space weather events." In it, he analyzed records of solar storms going back 50+ years. By extrapolating the frequency of ordinary storms to the extreme, he calculated the odds that a Carrington-class storm would hit Earth in the next ten years.

The answer: 12%.

"Initially, I was quite surprised that the odds were so high, but the statistics appear to be correct," says Riley. "It is a sobering figure."

SLASHDOT: How a Solar Storm Two Years Ago Nearly Caused a Catastrophe On Earth

WASHINTONPOST: How a solar storm two years ago nearly caused a catastrophe on Earth

WIKI: The Carrington Event of 1859

HISTORY.COM: A Perfect Solar Superstorm: The 1859 Carrington Event
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 28 Jul 2014, 19:54:35

Yeah, that's a pretty high likely hood for the consequences.

I know of at least one book written on how to survive such an event, there are probably several more.

On the other hand, the chance of coves collapse in BAU is 100% and that has not slowed anyone down yet.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby FoxV » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 10:45:07

oiy vey, here we go again.

My prep theory for such events is not to prepare for the event but prepare for the idiots and panic that will result from such event.

In the meantime, I guess this makes a good excuse to upgrade my sailboat to something more "liveable"

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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 10:49:56

Newfie wrote:I know of at least one book written on how to survive such an event, there are probably several more.
Ironically any "Y2K - year 2000 collapse book" covers the solar flare grid collapse scenario pretty well. A Carrington-Event is basically a Y2K type scenario. Truth is stranger then fiction as they say and considering that realistically this all suggests that a Y2K like grid collapse has a 1.2% probability per year and that a Y2K like scenario is actually realistic. I actually think that is hilarious!

Newfie wrote:Yeah, that's a pretty high likely hood for the consequences... On the other hand, the chance of... collapse in BAU is 100% and that has not slowed anyone down yet.
It's like Katrina. We knew about the flooding/failure that was coming long before Katrina hit. I heard about what was going to happen in a class before it happened and read a description of what was likely to happen years before in a geology related book, I think the book was called "the control of nature"... all years before Katrina happened. Like most things, it's not that knowledgeable people don't know, it's that decision makers don't listen. That's why the theoretical physicist "Michio Kaku" has been trying to start an initiative to harden satellites and other critical systems, but I believe no one important is listening to him on that or the physics community thus far. We could harden the electrical grid. As a civilization we've had plenty of warning and knowledge to prevent grid and satellite failures from this, but we still aren't doing anything.

Long term planning for a successful country:
Personally we should be preparing to come out on top of a solar flare event. If we don't get on top of this, I think this is a huge missed opportunity for the US. After WW2 our country became the worlds manufacturer for years for a few reasons, we were capitalists, we were geared up as manufacturers during the war, we had lots of oil and our country was not smashed from the war. If we hardened our grid and satellites for a solar flare and the rest of the world got messed up instead, we could give the US a huge advantage again taking a "last man standing" approach.

But more likely, I could see China hardening their grid and it's going to be the US floundering with cooked transformers.

Some more links:

Over the last few years major insurers have added solar flares to their risk lists, though as they more or less fall under "act of god", the risk has been put into the bottom of their lists. Although as an insurance company, they don't have much liability for acts of god, for real people it is significant the insurance companies acknowledge the risk exists for everyone else, both people and companies.

Insurance company links:

Catastrophic Solar Storm Inevitable, Insurers Warn

Lloyd’s last year reported that a major solar storm is “almost inevitable”

Also top speakers in physics acknowledge the risk of solar flares:

Michio Kaku: Are We Sitting Ducks for Solar Flares? (2012) (1:55 into the video)

Massive Solar Flares - Sept 29 Michio Kaku - Fox News (2011)
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 10:55:58

FoxV wrote:oiy vey, here we go again.

My prep theory for such events is not to prepare for the event but prepare for the idiots and panic that will result from such event.

In the meantime, I guess this makes a good excuse to upgrade my sailboat to something more "liveable"

see ya! Wouldn't want to be ya! :P


These days, it would take a manly man to go to sea with no electronics and not even a daily weather forecast.

Maybe one of the last things moving would be a ships - those big diesel engines probably don't have a lot of fru fru electronics and they'd have an engineer.

And what about boats that are well grounded on the water? They have a high risk of lightning strike anyway.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 11:00:28

FoxV wrote:oiy vey, here we go again.
Yeah no kidding!

But the things that make solar flares different from Y2K is this is:
1. A quantifiable event we understand and it has happened before.
2. We can reference legitimate likelihood statistics and the probability of the event happening is disturbingly high.

So those features differentiate a solar flare scenario from a more common panic driven event. Like knowing about the levy dangers before Katrina, the fact no one is panicked is perhaps the most disturbing indication the scenario is likely. Physicists are concerned, but politicians and the public are not. When I see a discrepancy like that, I find that concerning.

FoxV wrote:My prep theory for such events is not to prepare for the event but prepare for the idiots and panic that will result from such event.
That's a good philosophy. :-D
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 11:29:55

PrestonSturges wrote:These days, it would take a manly man to go to sea with no electronics and not even a daily weather forecast.
Yeah no kidding!

PrestonSturges wrote:Maybe one of the last things moving would be a ships - those big diesel engines probably don't have a lot of fru fru electronics and they'd have an engineer.

And what about boats that are well grounded on the water? They have a high risk of lightning strike anyway.
I think power-line transformers and communication satellites are the main assets that would be damaged by a solar storm. So most other electronics would be fine. The impact of the event would also depend on the time of year. Like up north, a lot of electricity is used for heating in the winter so if the transformers got fried there would be a lot of cold people. The other major concern is the cost and time it takes to replace major transformers.

If we got on top of this problem, I think our best bet might be to set up a national system where we can cut off or turn off our major transformer junctions before such an event. It would require major national changes to do that, but I think there are solutions.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby Pops » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 11:43:28

Yeah, prep for this is basic survival kit stuff, water primarily, then staple food, heat and meds if required for as long as you got the money and space.

The grid seems to be a prime target for asymmetric attack as well so I'd increase the odds higher - then add in a few points for run of the mill cascading fat-thumb mistakes and multiply that all by the fact that the grid is everything to TWAWKI and it might be worth a couple of invested dollars.


How do PV panels and the associated electronics fare in this or a terrestrial EMP situation?
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby dinopello » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 11:58:14

The liklihood seems pretty high, but also from the original article in talking about a Carrington-sized event:

A similar storm today could have a catastrophic effect. According to a study by the National Academy of Sciences, the total economic impact could exceed $2 trillion or 20 times greater than the costs of a Hurricane Katrina.


Total economic impact of 2 trillion doesn't sound civilization-ending to me. It would definately blow, but it can be weathered.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 12:19:19

Pops wrote:How do PV panels and the associated electronics fare in this or a terrestrial EMP situation?

Regarding solar flares, I believe the only major risk for everyday electronics would be power surges from the grid or the grid failing to power those electronics after an event. So for personal electronics, surge protectors and or a UPS (uninterruptible power supply) for your computer is about all that should be needed. Solar panels would probably be unaffected unless it was a really large array or connected to the grid.

Regarding man made EMP's, you would need a Faraday cage to protect electronics. Though that's not too difficult if it's just a few devices. There are many project designs online for making and testing small Faraday cages for storing data and electronics. Link: Garbage Can Faraday Cage
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby Pops » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 12:43:45

Thanks, this guy measures the shielding of a garbage can as only about 10db but increases it to 40db with aluminum duct tape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3S2KDuVxaU
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 12:49:58

dinopello wrote:Total economic impact of 2 trillion doesn't sound civilization-ending to me. It would definately blow, but it can be weathered.

Which is why I used the word destabilizing, instead of ending.

But the argument can be made that this could be a civilization-ending event. Civilizations have fallen and countries have broken apart over less. And of course ending is relative. How civil does our civilization remain if our electrical grid fries? The article describes 2 trillion in damage as 20 Katrina's, which more or less means 20 major population centers in a Katrina situation. Katrina was a pretty big mess for people living in it and the results were not as civilized as they could have been, but yes most people survived.

Looking at the problem from an economic perspective, I'm pretty sure the US doesn't have a spare 2 trillion to drop on a dime. If we can get the world to lend us a few trillion then it's certainly possible that we could borrow it, but realistically that is really a lot of money and it's likely that would have a significant impact on our economic viability. The US is in pretty bad economic shape as it is.

Personally I agree, most people would survive, though long term survival would depend on how fast we can restore support systems like water, food, heat and employment. But that's the problem, taking out the grid brings into question the regular things people rely on "water, food, heat and employment".
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 12:57:10

Wouldn't we at least get a day's warning of such an event? We are talking visible solar flares but the charged particles are moving at only a fraction of the speed of light. The speed of light is 186,000 mi/sec while the solar wind is only 500 mi/sec and the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. Isn't that like 1 to 2 days warning for us to power down and yank the circuit breakers?
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 12:57:35

Pops wrote:Thanks, this guy measures the shielding of a garbage can as only about 10db but increases it to 40db with aluminum duct tape.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3S2KDuVxaU
Great tip!
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 13:35:23

PrestonSturges wrote:Wouldn't we at least get a day's warning of such an event? We are talking visible solar flares but the charged particles are moving at only a fraction of the speed of light. The speed of light is 186,000 mi/sec while the solar wind is only 500 mi/sec and the sun is 93,000,000 miles away. Isn't that like 1 to 2 days warning for us to power down and yank the circuit breakers?
15 minutes at 1/3 the speed of light. The articles on our "Advanced Composition Explorer" satellite suggest a 15 to 30 minute warning time, most articles suggest 15 minutes.

So how much warning time do we have? The answer is probably 15-30 minutes plus whatever time it takes to get approval and to ask electrical companies to shut down in the time remaining and the actual time it takes to shut down or disconnect critical equipment. That may not be much time if we haven't built our systems planning for shutting down quickly. What we need is to either have the ability to shut down or have the grid built to be hardened against this type of failure. But if shutting down is the option we choose to go with, we may be talking a very short time window to shutdown, which would be unlikely to happen if we haven't planned for this contingency. Plus there is a lot of concern that our satellites are not hardened for this.

So we might know of possible flare dangers because of the position of earth and sunspots, but we won't know the time or magnitude until they happen, with only a relatively short warning and if we haven't prepared our systems for this, then they are probably not ready for this kind of event.

"A solar flare on January 20, 2005 released the highest concentration of protons ever directly measured and took just 15 minutes to reach Earth, indicating a velocity of approximately one-third light speed. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/spac ... -know.html

"satellite called Advanced Composition Explorer (ACE) provides around 15 minutes warning of a Coronal Mass Ejection (CME)"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... rning.html

Mind you the "Advanced Composition Explorer" satellite is slated to be replaced in 2014, but I don't believe it's replacement will be give us a faster heads-up, the replacement satellite is just to make sure we have a working satellite in place.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 15:07:07

OK, telescopes can spot suspicious solar activity 24 to 48 hours in advance of a flare, but I'm not sure what degree of certainty that would have.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby GHung » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 15:59:00

Re: PV systems - Our systems have survived some big nearby lightning strikes that fried other electronics. I've hardened things pretty well (I hope); plenty of lightning arrestors/surge protectors, and ran everything not below ground in metal conduit. That said, I have an old fire/gun safe in the root cellar which is grounded. Put a few things in there; radios, hard drive with important stuff, an old laptop, batteries, a spare charge controller... It's heavy steel and should provide pretty affective protection. Our power/utility room is pretty well hardened as well. If folks have metal roofs, adding a number of grounding straps may offer some protection.. Good lightning protection anyway. Installing whole-house surge supressors to your electrical panels is a good idea. Eaton/Cutler Hammer makes a line of stuff ("Surge Trap") that has worked very well for us; electrical lines, telephone, cable. One strike a few years ago blew the phone "trap" off the wall in a smoking mass, but none of the downstream phones, router, modem, etc. were damaged. A huge strike hit a compressor in my shop building, but nothing in the main house was touched.

Not sure if microgrids like ours are more or less vulnerable. I suspect less. At least I can keep spare parts. Most gridweenies probably don't have a spare grid transformer.

Communications will likely be the hardest hit, so (in case it happens tomorrow) I just want to say how much I've enjoyed most of your posts and comments :mrgreen: .
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby steam_cannon » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 16:02:32

PrestonSturges wrote:OK, telescopes can spot suspicious solar activity 24 to 48 hours in advance of a flare, but I'm not sure what degree of certainty that would have.
I don't think we can accurately predict flare trajectories or timing based on sun spots. Most flares don't head towards us and sometimes the Sun sends "28 solar flares erupting through space in a week", so shutting down the grid when there "might" be a flare is probably not an option. Also regarding predicting trajectory, one problem is probably due to shape, the Sun is only roughly spherical, it's "surface" is more like standing waves that shift, undulating like a ringing bell with high and low spots that change position. So the surface shape and underlying stresses are not consistent and probably do not send flares in directions that are accurately calculable ahead of time. So even if there is a solar flare originating from a known sunspot, knowing when it might flare and the trajectory of a flare would be difficult. Like predicting earthquakes, we can make some guesses, but I think it's not easy.

Additional discussion link: Fark.com discussion on the solar flare article
solar-flare.jpg
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 16:27:37

I listened to the audio book version of "One Second After" about an EMP attack. The book has a forward by Newt Gingrich, so it's kinda cheesy. The residents of the small town face TEOTWAWKI partly by whining about how it all would have been OK if the dirty hippies hadn't ruined America.
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Re: NASA Civilization Destabilizing Solar Flare Risk 1.2% Ye

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 16:30:01

I think the military would have the most interest in going on alert.

It is a worry to think that this also means the nuclear power plant down the road has a 1% chance of going Fukashima every year.
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