Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Mon 25 Dec 2006, 14:01:29MrBill wrote:Merry Christmas!
Thanks, and back atcha.
Thanks, and back atcha.
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Posted: Mon 25 Dec 2006, 14:01:29Thanks, and back atcha.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Mon 25 Dec 2006, 21:52:13I'm not worried about the earth. She will abide. The humans on it are another matter. I worry about the prospects for kids that were born after 2000. They could live into the next century. It could be getting nasty soon. Their long term survival depends on the earth systems staying somewhat stable. I don't think things will settle down for a while.
We have a maple sugaring place. We sometimes plant trees, or release saplings that won't start to produce sap for 40 years. I just hope that the climate is good for maples in 40 years, because I won't be tapping them, those kids will. We've planted the more warmth and wet tolerant red maple in some places. Hard to plan with what's happening. It'll be a different world.
Meanwhile the first inhabited island has been inundated by climate change. Here's the article from the Independent:
http://news.independent.co.uk/environme ... 099971.ece
We have a maple sugaring place. We sometimes plant trees, or release saplings that won't start to produce sap for 40 years. I just hope that the climate is good for maples in 40 years, because I won't be tapping them, those kids will. We've planted the more warmth and wet tolerant red maple in some places. Hard to plan with what's happening. It'll be a different world.
Meanwhile the first inhabited island has been inundated by climate change. Here's the article from the Independent:
http://news.independent.co.uk/environme ... 099971.ece
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Mon 25 Dec 2006, 23:55:54Of all the global warming news out there...these 2 articles concern me the most:
Methane Burps: Ticking Time Bomb
by John Atcheson
http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html
Hotter, Faster, Worser
by John Atcheson
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0222-27.htm
Our climate could change dramatically in a short period once this chain reaction really gets going...
Maybe this sounds ridiculous, but I sometimes wonder if it would be wiser to put less of our collective energy into trying to figure out how to save the project of civilization and more time just figuring out how to save homo sapiens and many other fauna and flora from extinction.
If it is true that our planet will become uninhabitable for humans given our present course, maybe we should undertake the sort of project that has been conceived for colonizing the moon...essentially making an uninhabitable place into a habitable place..creating an artificial life support system that could weather the rigors of the new world.
If we put our collective minds together...NASA scientists, permaculturists, eco-engineers, community planners...we could design specialized self-sustaining cities . They would be the modern version of Noah's Ark.
Perhaps, we could use climate change computer similations to determine which areas of the world will be the most suitable for these settlements. The settlements could be networked somehow. It would be better to have several settlements to increase the chances of survival.
Perhaps, we could use these settlements to reseed the planet and make it more habitable again.
How to get the resources behind such a project...I don't know...how to recruit for membership in these settlements...I don't know...how to insulate these settlements from the starving masses...I don't know...
just a brainstorm...preparing for worst case scenario makes sense to me. it may be wishful thinking to believe our civilization can salvage a small part of itself ... especially if the elites get involved.
Bill G.
Methane Burps: Ticking Time Bomb
by John Atcheson
http://www.energybulletin.net/3647.html
Hotter, Faster, Worser
by John Atcheson
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0222-27.htm
Our climate could change dramatically in a short period once this chain reaction really gets going...
Maybe this sounds ridiculous, but I sometimes wonder if it would be wiser to put less of our collective energy into trying to figure out how to save the project of civilization and more time just figuring out how to save homo sapiens and many other fauna and flora from extinction.
If it is true that our planet will become uninhabitable for humans given our present course, maybe we should undertake the sort of project that has been conceived for colonizing the moon...essentially making an uninhabitable place into a habitable place..creating an artificial life support system that could weather the rigors of the new world.
If we put our collective minds together...NASA scientists, permaculturists, eco-engineers, community planners...we could design specialized self-sustaining cities . They would be the modern version of Noah's Ark.
Perhaps, we could use climate change computer similations to determine which areas of the world will be the most suitable for these settlements. The settlements could be networked somehow. It would be better to have several settlements to increase the chances of survival.
Perhaps, we could use these settlements to reseed the planet and make it more habitable again.
How to get the resources behind such a project...I don't know...how to recruit for membership in these settlements...I don't know...how to insulate these settlements from the starving masses...I don't know...
just a brainstorm...preparing for worst case scenario makes sense to me. it may be wishful thinking to believe our civilization can salvage a small part of itself ... especially if the elites get involved.
Bill G.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Tue 26 Dec 2006, 02:24:37Revi wrote:http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2099971.ece
The area's 400 tigers are also in danger.
Even if we make it with no problems (highly dubious), it's a much poorer world we'll live in.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Tue 26 Dec 2006, 02:48:50billg wrote:If we put our collective minds together...NASA scientists, permaculturists, eco-engineers, community planners...we could design specialized self-sustaining cities . They would be the modern version of Noah's Ark.
We'd have to do it right now. Tomorrow morning. Before the peak. And pour everything we've got into it. And it still would likely fail. As we're learning now, to our chagrin (why didn't we frikkin listen to the Apaches? -- they were familiar with concepts western scientists are only just now beginning to figure out), you need an extremely complex and subtle ecological support base to sustainably grow the simplest of crops. Even if we could build these arks, Silent Running style, I doubt we could learn to duplicate natural systems in a contained system, and in short order.
In any case, I'm afraid that by the time the world at large realizes something truly momentous and catastrophic is happening, it'll be too late for us to even attempt such an undertaking. Sorry if I appear gloomy. I'm really not. But things just aren't looking too good out there.
Your signature quote is outstanding, btw. I met Krishnamurti once as a kid. He was very cool, very inspiring, great sense of humor -- and rather short. Yoda in real life.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Tue 26 Dec 2006, 04:33:40billg wrote:
Hundreds of billions of dollars and countless resources wasted in a vain attempt to create 'an out' instead of collectively facing and committing those same time and resources to solving existing problems. Part of the dilemma we have now is not lack of resources, but continually trying to treat the symptoms of uncontrolled population growth and wasteful use of our energy and natural resources instead of solving the underlying problem of living unsustainably within the existing limits of our environment. The moon will not change that. It just gives us a false hope.
Perhaps, we could use climate change computer similations to determine which areas of the world will be the most suitable for these settlements. The settlements could be networked somehow. It would be better to have several settlements to increase the chances of survival.
Perhaps, we could use these settlements to reseed the planet and make it more habitable again.
Hundreds of billions of dollars and countless resources wasted in a vain attempt to create 'an out' instead of collectively facing and committing those same time and resources to solving existing problems. Part of the dilemma we have now is not lack of resources, but continually trying to treat the symptoms of uncontrolled population growth and wasteful use of our energy and natural resources instead of solving the underlying problem of living unsustainably within the existing limits of our environment. The moon will not change that. It just gives us a false hope.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Tue 26 Dec 2006, 10:44:34MrBill wrote:billg wrote:Perhaps, we could use climate change computer similations to determine which areas of the world will be the most suitable for these settlements. The settlements could be networked somehow. It would be better to have several settlements to increase the chances of survival.
Perhaps, we could use these settlements to reseed the planet and make it more habitable again.
Hundreds of billions of dollars and countless resources wasted in a vain attempt to create 'an out' instead of collectively facing and committing those same time and resources to solving existing problems. Part of the dilemma we have now is not lack of resources, but continually trying to treat the symptoms of uncontrolled population growth and wasteful use of our energy and natural resources instead of solving the underlying problem of living unsustainably within the existing limits of our environment. The moon will not change that. It just gives us a false hope.
I'm not talking about the moon...I'm talking about the settlements being on earth.
I would agree with you if not for these dire forecasts about the run-a-way global warming scenario.
Many climate scientists believe that we have already hit or are very close to the "tipping point".
Even if we are not at the tipping point, I just don't see there being any hope of a well-coordinated international response to the threat faced by global warming.
The best hope is for individual countries to take desperate measures to deal with likely outcomes.
Where would this kind of leadership come from? I'm thinking of people like John Todd of Ocean Arks and Jim Hansen of NASA.
Also, you would have to bring together the best minds from ecovillages around the world.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Tue 26 Dec 2006, 12:16:01We are sh*tting into our land, water and air, and if we founded settlments on the moon or somewhere on earth and didn't stop sh*tting everywhere, we'ld still be screwed and we'ld just be moving to a new nest to foul.
Global Warming is us.
Our behaviors and the assumptions and institutions that drive those behaviors are what need to be changed. If we can't do that in time to prevent the worst happening to our planet, I don't really think we deserve another chance on this or any other planet.
Global Warming is us.
Our behaviors and the assumptions and institutions that drive those behaviors are what need to be changed. If we can't do that in time to prevent the worst happening to our planet, I don't really think we deserve another chance on this or any other planet.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006, 01:09:25George Carlin:
George Carlin on endangered species
Don't get upset at the environmentalist bashing. George slams everybody. Just laugh at what applies, and hang on for the good stuff.
The planet is fine. The people are fucked.
...The planet isn't going anywhere. We are. We're going away. Pack your shit folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace either, thank god for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here, and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.
...So the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's really started already, don't you?...
George Carlin on endangered species
Don't get upset at the environmentalist bashing. George slams everybody. Just laugh at what applies, and hang on for the good stuff.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006, 01:44:57Great thread.
I think coyote just said it all. Thanks for the Carlin quote.
I think coyote just said it all. Thanks for the Carlin quote.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Wed 27 Dec 2006, 02:33:51coyote wrote:George Carlin:The planet is fine. The people are fucked.
Carlin has always managed to put things in perspective. The planet is fine. It's in the process of burning us off right now, like a virus. He's right about environmentalists. Aren't we just really interested in trying to preserve our own environment?
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 18:12:40Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 23:06:27The planet may heal or get to some kind of steady state without us, but what really matters is if we can screw it up so badly that it won't support us. We're on our way. I think that the price of oil makes a lot of things stay nice here in la la land. We don't have to cut down all our trees to stay warm, because we can just fill the oil tank. If we were living sustainably, we could only cut a half a cord of wood per acre per year. We'd all need at least 2 acres per household just to make it through the winter in a small well insulated house. We couldn't have big houses and drive around in vehicles that use our annual energy budget in a month. We would have to live within our natural means. It would be a hobbesian life, nasty brutal and short, but we wouldn't use more than what the earth provides.
The problem is, we can't get back to that until we have a lot less people. That's not going to happen for a while.
I went up and visited the Amish who are living north of here. Their lifestyle doesn't use more than the earth provides. If we were all willing to live like that, I think the earth has a chance. If not, we're in danger of losing it. I don't give it 5 years before the changes become evident even to the densest of deniers. This winter is milder than last, and that one was milder than the one before. This makes three wierd, above normal winters in a row. The yield from our maple syrup operation has gone down and down, despite the fact that we are putting more taps in.
We are feeling the effects of climate change. There was a tornado nearby. They don't happen here, or didn't happen until recently. Mosquitos are active in November. This is not normal. Gaia is not going to like this. She is the final decider. Unless we begin to be better tenants, the landlord is going to throw us out.
The planet will begin to heal up then.
The problem is, we can't get back to that until we have a lot less people. That's not going to happen for a while.
I went up and visited the Amish who are living north of here. Their lifestyle doesn't use more than the earth provides. If we were all willing to live like that, I think the earth has a chance. If not, we're in danger of losing it. I don't give it 5 years before the changes become evident even to the densest of deniers. This winter is milder than last, and that one was milder than the one before. This makes three wierd, above normal winters in a row. The yield from our maple syrup operation has gone down and down, despite the fact that we are putting more taps in.
We are feeling the effects of climate change. There was a tornado nearby. They don't happen here, or didn't happen until recently. Mosquitos are active in November. This is not normal. Gaia is not going to like this. She is the final decider. Unless we begin to be better tenants, the landlord is going to throw us out.
The planet will begin to heal up then.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Fri 05 Jan 2007, 15:26:11Fascinating. Thanks for posting it. I especially liked the section on the Chernobyl area, where wildlife is coming back way faster than anyone expected it could. Small ray of hope. Even with the radiation, even though much of it must be sick -- as long as there aren't any damn people around, life can make a go of it.
Is that our lesson? How sad all this is... what we could be, and what we won't be. I do hope the runaway scenario doesn't happen. I hope the Earth bounces back, at least partway. That would rock. But this civilization -- this destructive, arrogant, tumorous, hateful civilization -- we're done. Maybe, if we learn our lesson well and remember it, we'll be able to try this over again and do it right. Sometime far in the future.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Sat 06 Jan 2007, 11:39:16Revi I fully agree. Simple living and high thinking is the answer. Localization not globalization. People lived that way for thousands of years.
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Sat 06 Jan 2007, 11:59:25thank you for posting that, very interesting
Re: Will the planet recover from our abuse?
Posted: Sat 06 Jan 2007, 16:00:55manu wrote:Revi I fully agree. Simple living and high thinking is the answer. Localization not globalization. People lived that way for thousands of years.
I call it the path to abundance. Fossil fuels were an abberation. They aren't very efficient. In the latest issue of Solar Today Steve Heckeroth puts it very succinctly:
"Fossil fuels are inherently inefficient because of the hundreds of millions of years of solar energy and the rare geological events that it took to produce them. About 350,000,000 trillion watt hours (TWh) of solar energy strike the earth's surface annually. It took 3.5 billion years of photosynthesis to create world oil reserves that contain avout 1,000,000 TWh of energy. Using direct solar radiation is about 1 quadrillion times more efficient than burning fossil fuel -and solar energy doesn't compromise the Earth's ability to support life." P. 27, Sustainable Transportation, weighing the options.
We are using the stuff just because it is easier than getting off our duffs and figuring anything else out. A solarized world is possible. We're living in it at our house. What's the problem? We save over $2250 every year from the changes we've made in our household. The green path is the path to abundance. Gaia rewards those who treat her well.
Where to next in Earth's dying days?
Posted: Wed 30 Sep 2009, 17:59:17Earth is now so dangerous that humans must find a new home if the species is to survive. That was Stephen Hawking's message last week. But where should we go? Alok Jha weighs up the options, from the mountains of Mars to the acid clouds of Venus.
link