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CarlosFerreira wrote:...
Let's work our way around the CO2 emissions first, shall we? Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

What exactly are you proposing?

cube wrote:

CarlosFerreira wrote:...
Let's work our way around the CO2 emissions first, shall we? Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

What exactly are you proposing?

Emissions tradable permits, like the ETS. Make one worldwide, with the total amount of permits reducing every year by, say, 1%, so it will increase prices and reduce total emissions. Judge along the way if that's enough a reduction. Remember, the more stringent a regulation on emissions, the greatest the compliance monitoring and enforcement cost.

Make the money that's generated from it feed into a fund to finance renewables and forest conservation. Utilities can apply for it to finance new projects and emissions reduction, but not to buy corporate jets. That would be a start.

Also, tax inputs, like petrol, diesel and coal.

And, after all that's in place, you can put a hose in the backside of a cow, if you like.

I do think meat should be taxed... Not so sure about dairy and eggs. Not for reason of "Global Warming", but just because its destroying our world. My guess is dairy is more "efficient" then just raising a cow for meat...although i could be off.

Maybe we should just tax all for more so we eat less! Or tax people who have children...but that is for another thread

frankthetank wrote:Maybe we should just tax all for more so we eat less! Or tax people who have children...but that is for another thread

Taxing children. Isn't it what the chinese do? And they are right, by the way.

frankthetank wrote:I do think meat should be taxed... Not so sure about dairy and eggs. Not for reason of "Global Warming", but just because its destroying our world. My guess is dairy is more "efficient" then just raising a cow for meat, although i could be off.

Uhm, are you aware that a large perecentage of the beef eaten in the USA is retired dairy cows? Nope, I am not kidding, because Americans use so many dairy products we grow a lot of dairy cows, and because of the factory farm system once they start declining in their production its off to the slaughter house they go as they are replaced by Heifers coming into milk for the first time.

Not to mention that fact that dairy cattle produce at a 50/50 gender ratio like most mamals so a lot of the young males end up as Veal while most of the rest end up as Steers who live a short life before off to the slaughter house they go as well.

Tanada wrote:

frankthetank wrote:I do think meat should be taxed... Not so sure about dairy and eggs. Not for reason of "Global Warming", but just because its destroying our world. My guess is dairy is more "efficient" then just raising a cow for meat...although i could be off.

Uhm, are you aware that a large perecentage of the beef eaten in the USA is retired dairy cows? Nope, I am not kidding, because Americans use so many dairy products we grow a lot of dairy cows, and because of the factory farm system once they start declining in their production its off to the slaughter house they go as they are replaced by Heifers coming into milk for the first time.
Not to mention that fact that dairy cattle produce at a 50/50 gender ratio like most mamals so a lot of the young males end up as Veal while most of the rest end up as Steers who live a short life before off to the slaughter house they go as well.

Makes sense. I don't know about specific diets, but I believe methane emissions real not that much different whatever the function of the cow.

Also, if the tax is applied over total emissions over the cow's life a diary cow, with it's longer life, probably passes on more gas.

CarlosFerreira wrote:Makes sense. I don't know about specific diets, but I believe methane emissions real not that much different whatever the function of the cow.
Also, if the tax is applied over total emissions over the cow's life a diary cow, with it's longer life, probably passes on more gas

Actually diet is the main cause of methane emissions. Not to be funny but the more cellulose vs starch a herbivore eats in general the more methane it emits. However it turns out that intestinal symbiots in Australian herbivores do not produce significantly more methane when cellulose fed and there is a research program under way to determine if those symbiots can be also symbiotic with cattle and sheep. If it turns out they can a simple dietary supplement given every week or so would substantially lower the emissions from Cattle and Sheep.

Link 1

Thanks to special bacteria in their stomachs, kangaroos' flatulence contains no methane and scientists want to transfer that bacteria to cattle and sheep who emit large quantities of the harmful gas.
While the usual image of greenhouse gas pollution is a billowing smokestack pushing out carbon dioxide, livestock passing wind contribute a surprisingly high percentage of total emissions in some countries.

Queensland Government senior research scientist Athol Klieve says 14 per cent of emissions from all sources in Australia are from enteric methane from cattle and sheep. "If you look at another country such as New Zealand, which has got a much higher agricultural base, they're actually up around 50 per cent," he said.

Link2

Hungry for a kanga-burger? Replacing beef and mutton with kangaroo meat could significantly cut down on ruminant livestock emissions, according to a new report commissioned by the Australian government. Bovine belching is a massive source of methane emissions. But while a single cow can produce 300 to 500 liters of methane gas per day— enough to inflate 80 party balloons—kangaroos produce almost none. In other words, if cattle were Hummers, kangaroos would be Priuses.

Hi Tanada,

Thanks for pointing that out for me. And thanks for the links on the kangaroo meat; I remember reading somewhere that kangaroos were more desirable as meat because they caused less damage in a sensitive environment like Australia. This makes it even more interesting.

Cheers!

GIVE up lamb roasts and save the planet. Government advisers are developing menus to combat climate change by cutting out “high carbon” food such as meat from sheep, whose burping poses a serious threat to the environment.

Out will go kebabs, greenhouse tomatoes and alcohol. Instead, diners will be encouraged to consume more potatoes and seasonal vegetables, as well as pork and chicken, which generate fewer carbon emissions.

“Changing our lifestyles, including our diets, is going to be one of the crucial elements in cutting carbon emissions,” said David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change.

Kennedy has stopped eating his favourite doner kebabs because they contain lamb.

A government-sponsored study into greenhouse gases found that producing 2.2lb of lamb released the equivalent of 37lb of carbon dioxide.

The problem is because sheep burp so much methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Cows are only slightly better behaved. The production of 2.2lb of beef releases methane equivalent to 35lb of CO2 Tomatoes, most of which are grown in heated glasshouses, are the most “carbon-intensive” vegetable, each 2.2lb generating more than 20lb of CO2 Potatoes, in contrast, release only about 1lb of CO2 for each 2.2lb of food. The figures are similar for most other native fruit and vegetables.

“We are not saying that everyone should become vegetarian or give up drinking but moving towards less carbon intensive foods will reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve health,” said Kennedy.

The climate committee is analysing emissions from farming and will suggest measures to reduce them. However, it has concluded that people will have to change their habits.

Alcoholic drinks are another significant contributory factor, with the growing and processing of crops such as hops and malt into beer and whisky helping to generate 1.5% of the nation’s greenhouse gases.

The Carbon Trust, a government-funded firm, is working with food and drink companies to calculate the “carbon footprints” of products - sometimes with surprising results.

Coca-Cola, for example, generates only about half the greenhouse gas emissions of Innocent’s “smoothies”. Cadbury’s chocolate generates about 4½lb for every 2.2lb eaten - less than half that from theof CO2 same weight of chicken.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 350237.ece

Ok.. so in order to save Planet Earth we can't eat lamb because sheep burp too much (I'm not making this up) and we can't drink beer anymore because hops have too big of a carbon footprint.

To the Britons on the forum.. is this for real? Do you guys over there really take this seriously?

This is one example where the bullshit headline IMO hides a fairly valid message.

The figures are similar for most other native fruit and vegetables.

I don't intend giving up lamb, tomatoes or anything else I can produce relatively easily locally. As for the beer side of things, touch a mans pint and things will get serious! It won't be a gun they have to pry from my fingers!

Sixstrings wrote:

GIVE up lamb roasts and save the planet. Government advisers are developing menus to combat climate change by cutting out “high carbon” food such as meat from sheep, whose burping poses a serious threat to the environment.

Out will go kebabs, greenhouse tomatoes and alcohol. Instead, diners will be encouraged to consume more potatoes and seasonal vegetables, as well as pork and chicken, which generate fewer carbon emissions.

“Changing our lifestyles, including our diets, is going to be one of the crucial elements in cutting carbon emissions,” said David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change.

Kennedy has stopped eating his favourite doner kebabs because they contain lamb.

A government-sponsored study into greenhouse gases found that producing 2.2lb of lamb released the equivalent of 37lb of carbon dioxide.

The problem is because sheep burp so much methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Cows are only slightly better behaved. The production of 2.2lb of beef releases methane equivalent to 35lb of CO2 Tomatoes, most of which are grown in heated glasshouses, are the most “carbon-intensive” vegetable, each 2.2lb generating more than 20lb of CO2 Potatoes, in contrast, release only about 1lb of CO2 for each 2.2lb of food. The figures are similar for most other native fruit and vegetables.

“We are not saying that everyone should become vegetarian or give up drinking but moving towards less carbon intensive foods will reduce greenhouse gas emissions and improve health,” said Kennedy.

The climate committee is analysing emissions from farming and will suggest measures to reduce them. However, it has concluded that people will have to change their habits.

Alcoholic drinks are another significant contributory factor, with the growing and processing of crops such as hops and malt into beer and whisky helping to generate 1.5% of the nation’s greenhouse gases.

The Carbon Trust, a government-funded firm, is working with food and drink companies to calculate the “carbon footprints” of products - sometimes with surprising results.

Coca-Cola, for example, generates only about half the greenhouse gas emissions of Innocent’s “smoothies”. Cadbury’s chocolate generates about 4½lb for every 2.2lb eaten - less than half that from theof CO2 same weight of chicken.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 350237.ece

Ok.. so in order to save Planet Earth we can't eat lamb because sheep burp too much (I'm not making this up) and we can't drink beer anymore because hops have too big of a carbon footprint.

To the Britons on the forum.. is this for real? Do you guys over there really take this seriously?

This looks like the sort of bullshit the write in The Sun newspaper.

If true, too little too late. From my reading, the U.K. is in serious overshoot to the tune of about 40 million people. Not to mention almost complete loss of insular biodiversity. Although my ancestors originally hailed from England, and there's still family over there, it's not where I'd want to try and ride out the upcoming dieoff.
Cheers
Forlorn Hope

ForlornHope wrote:If true, too little too late. From my reading, the U.K. is in serious overshoot to the tune of about 40 million people. Not to mention almost complete loss of insular biodiversity. Although my ancestors originally hailed from England, and there's still family over there, it's not where I'd want to try and ride out the upcoming dieoff.
Cheers
Forlorn Hope

And that is the real lunacy of this "eat less lamb to save the Earth" business. Let's face it, Great Britian is an overpopulated ISLAND. With that in mind, how can anybody argue for lowering protein intake and eating more potatoes for crying out loud? And it's not even for health reasons, they're saying eat less lamb cuz sheep burp too much!

I'm sure the Britons on this forum see this as nonsense as much as I do. But honestly, doesn't it bother you that these "advisors" are on your government payroll?

Let's face it, Great Britian is an overpopulated ISLAND.

Right next to Europe, the most overpopulated continent. Things are looking up.

Don't remind doomers that meat eating (unless you're raising your own) is one of the most polluting, resource sucking activities modern man can engage in, it hits too close to home. Even MonteQuest won't touch the issue though he'd lop off your sack & sew up your woman's vag if he had the power to.

DefiledEngine wrote:

Let's face it, Great Britian is an overpopulated ISLAND.

Right next to Europe, the most overpopulated continent. Things are looking up.

I thing this is the basic level it will come down to. Overshoot will be worst felt in the most populated countries. This puts Britain and Europe high on the list and also Japan, India and South East Asia.

The livestock aspect of the AGW madness appears as one of the highpoints of the insanity.
The truth behind it is the centuries old war between money changers and small holders. In it's modern guise, the centralised food merchants cartel ( supermarkets ) are continuing a old policy of shifting as much agriculture away from the UK as possible. Merchants take more of the wealth if the divide between producer and consumer is widened ( divide and conquer ). Also, labour is cheaper, and regulations for animal rights are much less of a problem abroad.

While maintaining the standard barrage of assault on uk farmers, the supermarkets are always game for new angles of attack.
The old arsenal is - endebting the farmers, saying their livestock spreads diease, saying their livestock is dieased, covertly dieasing livestock, organising mass culls, sponsering piracy, smothering the farmers in legal paperwork and many more.

As an agent for the supermarket policy to shift agri-bussiness abroad how would you stir the AGW madness to your cause?
It might not come to anything, but it's worth a hack. When so much of society is now geared towards eating anything the AGW media says, with enough lobbying - carbon cow\sheep tax might be within reach. Another shackle around UK farmers necks, and as another bit of agriculture is chiped from the UK, that's a bit more wealth that can be produced and controled quietly in some back water poor country that isn't impeded by the AGW bollocks.

I find It's always comforting to read the comments on these AGW articles. If your looking for raw data on what the population thinks of the AGW movement, this is pretty good start. >75% thinks AGW is insane.
Here's a small fraction of them...

"Oh give me a break!!! Potatoes? Tomatoes? It strains credulity. This earth is millions of years old and has had ice ages and warming trends that are cyclical. I find it extremely hard to believe that in only +/- 200 years since the industrial revolution that we tiny humans could destroy the earth!"
PCTRKTS, Riverside, USA

"i AM SICK TO DEATH OF THESE NUT CASES. ANYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF BRAINS KNOWS EVERYONE EMITS CARBON DIOXIDE WHEN THEY BREATHE. tHEY SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT IS ONE THING THAT KEEPS PLANTS ALIVE. WHAT'S UP?"
MARY MOORE, Eugene, U.S.A.

"I've clearly been unconscious. At what point did being an absolute idiot qualify someone to determine the path of mankind?"
Randy, Santa Barbara,

"Ridiculous, The CO2, the sheep burped came from grass which absorbed the CO2 from the atmosphere and if the sheep did not eat the grass it would decay a release the CO2 back. "
Arthur W. Kelly, La Porte, TX, USA

"The UK has collapsed entirely into decadent insanity. No Western nation has fallen further, faster than this once-great land."
Steve Macdonlad, Truro, Canada

"when sheep start eating coal, I will stop eating them"
John, Crawley, England

"What a load of tosh - I'm sick to death of this greenhouse gas and carbon emissions stuff. These people are becoming obsessive.
I'm increasingly inclined to go the other way and ignore everything they come out with........."
Drew, Nottingham,

"Incredible! Someone is actually paying these people with hard to come by tax money to come up with solutions to problems that don't exist! The entire world has gone insane!"
Steve, Niceville, USA

"As the AGW agenda collapses, so the do the greens and their political cronies get more desperate and invent more insane ways to destroy capitalism and globalisation. Increases in Co2, which amounts to 0.04% of the atmosphere, comes after increases in temperature, as proved by analysis of ice cores"
chris, camberley, uk

Sixstrings wrote:

Alcoholic drinks are another significant contributory factor, with the growing and processing of crops such as hops and malt into beer and whisky helping to generate 1.5% of the nation’s greenhouse gases.

Even if that figure were 15% (instead of 1.5%), there's no chance human behavior will ever change when it comes to beer & booze.

meemoe_uk wrote:I find It's always comforting to read the comments on these AGW articles. If your looking for raw data on what the population thinks of the AGW movement, this is pretty good start. >75% thinks AGW is insane.
Here's a small fraction of them...

"Oh give me a break!!! Potatoes? Tomatoes? It strains credulity. This earth is millions of years old and has had ice ages and warming trends that are cyclical. I find it extremely hard to believe that in only +/- 200 years since the industrial revolution that we tiny humans could destroy the earth!"
PCTRKTS, Riverside, USA

"i AM SICK TO DEATH OF THESE NUT CASES. ANYONE WITH AN OUNCE OF BRAINS KNOWS EVERYONE EMITS CARBON DIOXIDE WHEN THEY BREATHE. tHEY SHOULD ALSO KNOW THAT IS ONE THING THAT KEEPS PLANTS ALIVE. WHAT'S UP?"
MARY MOORE, Eugene, U.S.A.

"I've clearly been unconscious. At what point did being an absolute idiot qualify someone to determine the path of mankind?"
Randy, Santa Barbara,

"Ridiculous, The CO2, the sheep burped came from grass which absorbed the CO2 from the atmosphere and if the sheep did not eat the grass it would decay a release the CO2 back. "
Arthur W. Kelly, La Porte, TX, USA

"The UK has collapsed entirely into decadent insanity. No Western nation has fallen further, faster than this once-great land."
Steve Macdonlad, Truro, Canada

"when sheep start eating coal, I will stop eating them"
John, Crawley, England

"What a load of tosh - I'm sick to death of this greenhouse gas and carbon emissions stuff. These people are becoming obsessive.
I'm increasingly inclined to go the other way and ignore everything they come out with........."
Drew, Nottingham,

"Incredible! Someone is actually paying these people with hard to come by tax money to come up with solutions to problems that don't exist! The entire world has gone insane!"
Steve, Niceville, USA

"As the AGW agenda collapses, so the do the greens and their political cronies get more desperate and invent more insane ways to destroy capitalism and globalisation. Increases in Co2, which amounts to 0.04% of the atmosphere, comes after increases in temperature, as proved by analysis of ice cores"
chris, camberley, uk

Well, the USA comments you can discount. I'm not surprised my fellow Americans think this is nonsense -- what surprises me is that this is printed as straight-faced news in the UK.

Why is the UK feeling so guilty about their little share of blame for global warming? I mean, do Britons really want to munch on boiled potatoes while the other teeming masses the world over enjoy their meat?

Honestly, I just can't get over the fact that you guys have government bureaucrats running around measuring cow farts and sheep burps.