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Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 09 Dec 2021, 23:18:16

AdamB wrote:How about just moving, and leaving the kind of squalor behind where honest God fearing folk can't even keep their catalytic converters safe?

How about just shooting the next A-hole that crawls under her car with a sawsall?
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 09 Dec 2021, 23:23:09

Back in the day Democrat mayor came to this conclusion. It was right then and the only answer now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKll7Kf1Dh4
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 00:38:22

Newfie wrote:The widespread acquisition of guns leads me to believe that an increasing percentage of the population doubts governments ability to fulfill its main purpose, make them safe. This is not a failure of the people but of the government, it is a vote of “no confidence.”


Sounds far more reasonable to me than pretending because arms manufacturers want to sell stuff, people just naturally want to buy it.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 00:41:45

vtsnowedin wrote: I am optimistic that the population will, along with arming themselves in self-defense, will at the next opportunity vote out these fools that have brought this plague upon us.


Yeah, well, some of us have been trying to do that since King George The First, and lotta good it has done.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 00:47:45

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:How about just moving, and leaving the kind of squalor behind where honest God fearing folk can't even keep their catalytic converters safe?

How about just shooting the next A-hole that crawls under her car with a sawsall?


Because even in reasonable states like mine, which have an absolute castle doctrine (you come in my house uninvited, by definition it is legal to shoot you), you can't shoot folks stealing your stuff outside. A local guy tried that, some perps hooked up to the trailer in his driveway and tried driving off with it, the homeowner began peppering the perps vehicle as it was trying to get out of his driveway with a proper AR platform. Said perp, having been properly perforated, made it a mile or two down the road before he expired. Homeowner goes to jail for killing him. You don't get to shoot them outside your home for theft. Lethal force outside the home only allowed to stop grave physical harm of yourself or others, and trailers ain't people.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Doly » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 09:38:31

Do you have a personal objection to folks having hobbies?


I do, when the "hobby" consists of collecting stuff specifically designed to kill, as opposed to some other things you mention, which aren't specifically designed to kill.

I have a hobby of learning about medicinal plants and mushrooms, and people find it distasteful when I describe the various poisons I know, in spite that I do not extract or collect poisons. I would find it understandable, if I did extract and collect poisons, that my neighbours would feel some objections to the activity, and maybe demand that I offer some sort of guarantees designed to stop me and others from murdering people willy-nilly, just because it's possible. Such as, for example, clearly labelling the jars as deadly poisons, and publicly stating that I would take the utmost care not to poison anyone, accidentally or otherwise.

Do you gun owners ever have any sort of ceremony where you publicly state that you clearly understand the consequences of shooting people and will do all you can to avoid it? I don't think so. Why not? Oh, because it might give someone cold feet to even describe the reality of your "hobby", and that's bad for the business of some people.

If your "hobby" is training to kill, you better get real about what your "hobby" is and who that makes you. Hopefully you are training to kill animals, not people, and you are training to be a hunter, not a soldier. But if you are training to harm people, then you should not ask or expect any mercy, least of all in words, since you are training not to be merciful. You call your activity a "hobby", and that's asking for mercy. I call it sheer un-mitigated irresponsibility, when you are not even able to admit, perhaps not even to yourself, if you are planning to possibly harm people or not.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 12:14:42

Dolly wrote:


Do you gun owners ever have any sort of ceremony where you publicly state that you clearly understand the consequences of shooting people and will do all you can to avoid it?



Until recently the path to gun ownership was typically through hunting, and states often require a hunter safety course which does much as you describe.

Even without the formal state training there frequently was a very strong safety and respect culture. That went beyond merely handling the weapon but extended to respect for the animals life. At times it extended to a sort if spiritual realm; it was very “conservative” of human and other life. Unfortunately much of this has been lost.

As a gun owner I would support significant training before purchase. Perhaps a general training class that covered hand guns, rifles, and shotguns complete with some range time. Say 16-24 hours. Then a specific familiarization at time of purchase from a broker.

None of this would make any significant dent in the number of homicides or attempted homicides. The vast majority of those guns are already in illegal hands.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 16:31:31

Doly wrote:
Do you have a personal objection to folks having hobbies?


I do, when the "hobby" consists of collecting stuff specifically designed to kill, as opposed to some other things you mention, which aren't specifically designed to kill.


So grandad hurting bears in Alaska, and me collecting his firearm, is something object to? Unfortunate, but your idea isn't all that uncommon. That ol' Winchester is a beauty for having been once a daily working firearm.

Doly wrote:I have a hobby of learning about medicinal plants and mushrooms, and people find it distasteful when I describe the various poisons I know, in spite that I do not extract or collect poisons. I would find it understandable, if I did extract and collect poisons, that my neighbours would feel some objections to the activity, and maybe demand that I offer some sort of guarantees designed to stop me and others from murdering people willy-nilly, just because it's possible. Such as, for example, clearly labelling the jars as deadly poisons, and publicly stating that I would take the utmost care not to poison anyone, accidentally or otherwise.


I've got a big warning sign on the door to the spare room containing the closet with my collectible (and other) firearms in it. Seems fair, in the vein of what you might do with creating deadly toxins.

Image

Doly wrote:Do you gun owners ever have any sort of ceremony where you publicly state that you clearly understand the consequences of shooting people and will do all you can to avoid it? I don't think so. Why not?


Well you should have asked before assuming then. Training for a concealed carry permit includes an explanation of the law and rules of the road as it were, and the consequences of getting it wrong. No ceremony for common gun owners though, any more than for personal poison manufacturers. And you don't indicate you need a ceremony to make poisons, why would you require it of the individual gun owner?

Doly wrote:Oh, because it might give someone cold feet to even describe the reality of your "hobby", and that's bad for the business of some people.


The reality of my hobby....firearms sitting quietly in the closet for decades, sometimes the better part of a century? Not bad for any business I am aware of. Anyone who doesn't understand what firearms are for needs to stay away from them. Full stop. You've made it clear that folks who aren't aware of how your gardening hobby can turn out, should stay away as well.

Doly wrote:If your "hobby" is training to kill, you better get real about what your "hobby" is and who that makes you.


Yes, at the age of 11 when I went to my first hunter safety course, so 3 days after my 12th birthday I could go deer hunting, I was salivating at opportunity to wreck mayhem upon the whitetail population. In that context, sure sounds my hobby puts food on the table no different than yours. So our hobbys make us both food providers!

Doly wrote:Hopefully you are training to kill animals, not people, and you are training to be a hunter, not a soldier.


More than a little ironic that you mention this last, because your bias is so confirmed as to what YOU think people do with guns, rather than what a vast majority of their owners do.

Doly wrote:But if you are training to harm people, then you should not ask or expect any mercy, least of all in words, since you are training not to be merciful.


Well, I believe handing out mercy to be a God given instruction. If someone unleashing murder and mayhem on my family or friends doesn't respond to my pleas, is it okay with you that I follow the last resort principles of how to keep others from harm....by rapidly deploying the best close quarter combat weapon of the 20th century, otherwise known as a 1911 loaded with 230 grain Hydra-Shok ammunition that the gentle and good folk might be saved from the Devils own henchmen, come to life?

Doly wrote: You call your activity a "hobby", and that's asking for mercy. I call it sheer un-mitigated irresponsibility, when you are not even able to admit, perhaps not even to yourself, if you are planning to possibly harm people or not.


Seriously, guns locked up is irresponsibility? Why? I've got safes and footlockers, with the usual inability of random folks to enter them. As far as harming people, only once in my life did I need to point a firearm at someone. Turns out, burglars don't like being confronted by armed residents. And not a single beetle or lettuce stalk was harmed in the protection of myself and my mom that evening. What would you have done, asked them nicely to drink some hemlock before deciding to pillage the place and people? How DO you handle people who don't take no for an answer? Because they exist. A cloistered life you must lead is all I can think.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 21:24:18

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:How about just moving, and leaving the kind of squalor behind where honest God fearing folk can't even keep their catalytic converters safe?

How about just shooting the next A-hole that crawls under her car with a sawsall?


Because even in reasonable states like mine, which have an absolute castle doctrine (you come in my house uninvited, by definition it is legal to shoot you), you can't shoot folks stealing your stuff outside. A local guy tried that, some perps hooked up to the trailer in his driveway and tried driving off with it, the homeowner began peppering the perps vehicle as it was trying to get out of his driveway with a proper AR platform. Said perp, having been properly perforated, made it a mile or two down the road before he expired. Homeowner goes to jail for killing him. You don't get to shoot them outside your home for theft. Lethal force outside the home only allowed to stop grave physical harm of yourself or others, and trailers ain't people.

I see that as a law that needs to be changed.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 21:43:45

Here is another “degrowth” concept that may explain a lot if todays situation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink


Many [female rats] were unable to carry pregnancy to full term or to survive delivery of their litters if they did. An even greater number, after successfully giving birth, fell short in their maternal functions. Among the males the behavior disturbances ranged from sexual deviation to cannibalism and from frenetic overactivity to a pathological withdrawal from which individuals would emerge to eat, drink and move about only when other members of the community were asleep. The social organization of the animals showed equal disruption. ...

The common source of these disturbances became most dramatically apparent in the populations of our first series of three experiments, in which we observed the development of what we called a behavioral sink. The animals would crowd together in greatest number in one of the four interconnecting pens in which the colony was maintained. As many as 60 of the 80 rats in each experimental population would assemble in one pen during periods of feeding. Individual rats would rarely eat except in the company of other rats. As a result extreme population densities developed in the pen adopted for eating, leaving the others with sparse populations.

... In the experiments in which the behavioral sink developed, infant mortality ran as high as 96 percent among the most disoriented groups in the population.[5]

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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 21:52:35

On the Hobby issue.
I don't think of my guns as a hobby. I do not collect them with the aim of having a better collection then some one else not do I try to to make money reselling collectable guns I have purchased. Granted there are many people that do actively pursue gun collecting in that way but most of them seldom fire any of their collectables at anything as that reduces their collectable value.
I do on the other hand consider hand loading ammunition as a hobby. It has enough skill and care required to keep it interesting and I have spent perhaps thousands of hours trying to find the perfect bullet-powder-primer, combination for many of my several rifles that will deliver that mythical one hole group.
My guns have more then one use. Hunting of course but dispatching pest animals around the house often gets more rounds fired in a year. (A skunk that wants to come in through the cat door needs to go). And then there is target practice to keep the skill level acceptable and last but not least is, home, family ,and catalytic converter defense which as of yet I have never had to fire a round. And yes try to steal something from my dooryard and rules be dammed you will lay their bleeding out.
If everyone had that policy and the will and means to back it up home robberies would become a very rare thing.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 23:20:44

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote: Lethal force outside the home only allowed to stop grave physical harm of yourself or others, and trailers ain't people.

I see that as a law that needs to be changed.


What might the laws be in your state for the proper dispatching of felonious miscreants to the other side of the great beyond?

I am forced to admit that I am uncomfortable with delivering to said miscreants what some might think they rightly deserve if they are just generally pilfering outside, and do not appear to be immediately dangerous to my health or family.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 23:23:50

vtsnowedin wrote: And yes try to steal something from my dooryard and rules be dammed you will lay their bleeding out.
If everyone had that policy and the will and means to back it up home robberies would become a very rare thing.


Home robberies are prima facia evidence that perforating a perpetrator is allowed in my state. It is doing the same to someone stealing something out in your yard that is frowned upon, legally speaking. Locally anyway.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 10 Dec 2021, 23:44:25

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: And yes try to steal something from my dooryard and rules be dammed you will lay their bleeding out.
If everyone had that policy and the will and means to back it up home robberies would become a very rare thing.


Home robberies are prima facia evidence that perforating a perpetrator is allowed in my state. It is doing the same to someone stealing something out in your yard that is frowned upon, legally speaking. Locally anyway.

I hear you on that but rules be dammed if you let them steal your car while you watch them today they will be in your house in the near future. Better to be judged by twelve then carried by six is a rule they can't change and at my age a life sentence don't amount to much.
So feeling lucky Punk? Go ahead , Make my day. :twisted:
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 1

Unread postby Doly » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 09:00:37

If everyone had that policy and the will and means to back it up home robberies would become a very rare thing.


The vast majority of burglars make sure to go only into empty homes, because obviously they prefer to avoid problems with the residents. Your home is much better protected with a decent alarm system than with a gun.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 1

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 09:36:17

I don’t have the link handy but it quoted some stats about how burglars operate in the UK vs US. In the UK they spend little time observing a property and frequently enter with folks home. Jn the US they spend far more time observing the property and are roughly 1/3rd as likely to enter with residents home.

This article also noted, as have others, that when someone successfully intervenes in a home invasion it is very seldom picked up by regional, let alone national, news sources. This gives the impression it is far more rare than it really is.

OK, found the article.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/artic ... 46851.html
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 10:54:51

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:Home robberies are prima facia evidence that perforating a perpetrator is allowed in my state. It is doing the same to someone stealing something out in your yard that is frowned upon, legally speaking. Locally anyway.

I hear you on that but rules be dammed if you let them steal your car while you watch them today they will be in your house in the near future.


I understand your point, and might even agree with it, but the idea of the Wild West with guns in the US, as Doly implies, most owners gun experience is learned from watching how they are used on TV, is a step past my comfort level for society at large. You must be familiar with that uneasy feeling I get around some other gun owners, talking about things similar to what you've just suggested, blasting away at the first sign of a misdeed (or a mistaken misdeed), knowing all the while that they are the kind of gun owner that is barely familiar with which end of the firearm is the bad one.

vtsnowedin wrote:Better to be judged by twelve then carried by six is a rule they can't change and at my age a life sentence don't amount to much.


Absolutely correct. And easy to say. Admittedly, easier to contemplate in our advancing years. But it makes no sense to be involved at all over just some attempt at stolen property. You and I are both probably insured for such things.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 1

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 11:20:50

Doly wrote:
If everyone had that policy and the will and means to back it up home robberies would become a very rare thing.


The vast majority of burglars make sure to go only into empty homes......


And your experience with burglary is how much more advanced than that with firearms.....?

Console yourself with what you think burglars are LIKELY to do, rather than prepare for what they actually CAN do, if you'd like. VT and I were both probably boy scouts once, and "Be Prepared" is as good a moto then for young men as it is today for those inclined towards knowing that we don't live in a world of peace and light and teddy bears.

Doly wrote:... because obviously they prefer to avoid problems with the residents. Your home is much better protected with a decent alarm system than with a gun.


The place I lived was a trailer, 14X70. It sat along a country road in Appalachia, and my high school friends referred to it as "The Hole". It had electricity most of the time, running water 9 months out of the year, during winter we had to draw it from the creek out back, my bed was a sheet of plywood on cinder blocks, and the gunrack I built in shop held the first firearms I ever purchased to feed the family with, a deer rifle, a 22 rifle, and a double barreled shotgun. Grandma's property was 1/2 mile to the east, and it was 1/2 mile to the next farm over to the west. We couldn't afford an alarm any more than we could phone service, or to have the water pipes buried deep enough to stop freezing in winter.

What a privileged life you must have led, to be among fine folk who think that noise is scary, with burglars to match.

While your experience with the world can honestly lead you to exactly where you appear to be, and that is expected, please don't assume that everyone else has the same experience, even here in the US. I had a 22 rifle in my hand to clean out groundhogs so they wouldn't flip the farmers wagons while baling hay by the time I was 9. Legal limit (and sometimes an extra one or two for another family in the holler) of whitetail from the time I was 12 until I left for college. Turkey for Thanksgiving harvested within 200 yards from grandma's house each year. Grandpa's hobby farm grew about all the vegetables we needed, grandma canned everything just as she had been doing since the great depression and homemade pizza after church on Sunday's or store bought grapes were about the only treats there ever were. I didn't even know what fast food was until I went to college. Folks relied on themselves and family to keep things level, and we were all armed and somehow managed to not use them on each other. I left and never looked back. And I'm happy my kids are in a world where people can think such amusing ideas that loud noises scare away all burglars as often as they do bears. It is when your expectations are not met in this regard, that the question arises....what would YOU do? Stand there and lament your fate while it befalls you? Or wish you hadn't assumed the world was just sweetness and light when you discovered its true nature that us privileged First Worlders don't encounter as much as once did?
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 1

Unread postby Pops » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 11:28:58

I don't have a problem with guns. I own guns. I don't have any problem with hunters, plinkers, collectors. I don't have a problem with permitted concealed carry.

I have a problem with performance artists, vigilantes, irresponsible immature posers who put the public at risk with zero benefit.

In the July 2016 mass shooting of five police officers in Dallas, the work of police officers was made more difficult as they struggled to distinguish between people legally carrying guns openly and the gunman who opened fire. Afterwards, both the police chief and the mayor said law enforcement couldn’t tell “good guys with guns” from “bad guys with guns” because it is perfectly legal to walk around in public with an exposed handgun or rifle in Texas.


That's exactly what the Sheriff said about the cospay "milita" yahoos in Kenosha.

Open carry is not illegal in many places because not too long ago responsible gun owners didn't feel the need to show how tough they were by carrying openly. It is not a leap to understand that guns in public make many reasonable people uncomfortable—especially in crowded urban areas. Pretty obviously fewer gun accidents, as well as intentional shootings due to road rage or hurt feelings and whatever else don't happen in public if it is illegal to carry especially without a permit.

On'y 20% of the population think permitless CC is a good idea, I don't find anything quickly on open carry that isn't skewed.

Guns are intimidating. White people carrying guns openly—and I've never seen anything but whites doing it— with no apparent reason are obviously compensating. As I say, it is all of a piece.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 1

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 11 Dec 2021, 13:57:56

Pops wrote:I don't have a problem with guns. I own guns. I don't have any problem with hunters, plinkers, collectors. I don't have a problem with permitted concealed carry.

I have a problem with performance artists, vigilantes, irresponsible immature posers who put the public at risk with zero benefit.


I can agree with all of that/ But I'm guessing that Doly thinks there are a bunch more of 1 in America, than the other.

Pops wrote:Guns are intimidating. White people carrying guns openly—and I've never seen anything but whites doing it— with no apparent reason are obviously compensating. As I say, it is all of a piece.


Have you ever seen this article, on the origins of gun control in California? It is fascinating, along the point you've just raised, if only because who was involved, and maybe why.
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