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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 17:26:46
by Newfie
Tanada,

Substitute so word other than “Alarmed” for that group, maybe call it “Activated” or “Motivated” or “Making Physical Changes” and you fit that group. You have modified something in your life to adapt (call the “Adaptors”). That’s the crucial difference, action as opposed to contemplation.

And the study participants don’t get to put themselves into the boxes, they are filed by the researchers. From my view point, reading what you just wrote, you are among the most active adaptors in the country.

No point arguing about it, just how I read it.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 18:49:20
by Ibon
There was a time I felt like I had some control and the decisions I had made are pretty well reflected in Tanada's post. The decision to move to this cloud forest, self reliance in food and power, deepening my relationship with the local community, leaving the USA. The only fly in the ointment of this set up that always concerned me was the dependency of our operating expenses on the discretionary spending of tourists.

I no longer believe very much that I can outsmart the chaos coming and this has been somewhat liberating. That takes all this energy that I once spent on shoring up for some future survival strategy and allowed me to apply that energy wholly to the here and now.

I submit humbly to the chaos, turn the other cheek to it so to speak.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 20:40:49
by vtsnowedin
Ibon wrote:I submit humbly to the chaos, turn the other cheek to it so to speak.

No.
I will stand with sword and shield against the onslaught even though I am old and out numbered and strike as many telling blows as I can before I fall.
Turning the other cheek gets you two black eyes.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 20:47:27
by Newfie
I’m gonna run like hell and find a nice place to hide. :-D

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 20:52:45
by vtsnowedin
Well I was taking after I'm cornered and have no escape. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day. :)

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 06:32:17
by Newfie
:lol: Baha,

By comparison I would walk the streets of Philadelphia and look around at all the folks rushing to and from work, wondering how many had the slightest clue.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 08:33:44
by Ibon
baha wrote:For ten years I have read about people on this website being unwilling to talk to friends and co-workers about their fears and concerns. They don't want to be labeled a doomer. I had that same problem for a while. Until I got new friends and co-workers :)

But times change. I go to these meetings where each person talks about their hot button issues and concerns and I hear the very same words I have read on Peakoil.com. I meet main-stream political activists who I would swear have been reading this website. It's not as fringe as it used to be. That says to me attitudes are changing. Awareness is sinking in. Change is the only constant.

There are more people out there who understand CC and the other issues at hand than you think.


I think there is a combination of two factors that will provide the critical momentum toward change.

The first is what you just addressed Baha. I also see this consensus Converging, the decoupling of climate change from belonging to a particular ideology or party. One thing is awareness and consensus on the problem, where the divergence still exists is regarding solutions.

The second factor is the one Newfie mentioned, the big segment of the population that is clueless because they choose to be clueless. Those that live dimmed down intellectual lives. This sweeps across all socio-economic sectors by the way. You will never get a buy in or consensus that includes this sector. But you do not have to. For the ignorant and religious you just need to socialize them through the religious institutions that need to get on board, or governments need to set the agenda on where to prioritize infrastructure. Or the private sector that sets the symbols of status away from plastic shit and over to more sustainable symbols like who can grow the biggest zuccinis.

There is a significant segment of the population that will just follow where others lead. It shouldn't be that hard to lead this segment with a wise leash. They are compliant and easily mouldable. Just look at how many are satisfied with thoroughly mediocre lives not ever questioning the deeper questions about their own sentient life. This sector of the society doesn't ever need to see the light, they just need a wise sheep dog.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 10:17:02
by Newfie
To make this post relevant is a stretch, yet somehow it fits.

There has been the Golden Globe Race going on. Around the world solo in a 1970’s vintage boat with limited technology. Something like 18 started, so far 5 boats have been lost.

This Frenchman won yesterday. Several (12?) thousand miles ago he suffered a partial mast failure.

BA930432-DE69-47E0-9666-FE1C4676B64D.jpeg


6C43DD31-6520-4F50-BD94-959C1DCFC08B.jpeg


This repair was done without mast steps, he had to pull himself up in a bosuns chair, it was done mid-ocean approaching Patagonia, he was alone, he won the race, he is 74 years old.

There is someone who is in touch with their environment in a very special and intimate way. Someone with a tremendous willl to live.

I am in awe.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 13:15:08
by GHung
Ibon wrote:.........

There is a significant segment of the population that will just follow where others lead. It shouldn't be that hard to lead this segment with a wise leash. .........


And there is a significant subset of the population who will lead them astray because 'wisdom' interferes with their ambitions. It's the carrot/stick effect; convince them that the way they've been living is just fine, and that those who would encourage them to change only want to control their lives and take what they have. It's as simple as calling said wisdom "fake news", over and over. Toss in a little insignificant truth that tickles the herd's fancy, instill a little fear & loathing, employ some politics of hate, divide-and-conquer becomes reality. No room left for wisdom.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 18:54:34
by Ibon
GHung wrote:
Ibon wrote:.........

There is a significant segment of the population that will just follow where others lead. It shouldn't be that hard to lead this segment with a wise leash. .........


And there is a significant subset of the population who will lead them astray because 'wisdom' interferes with their ambitions. It's the carrot/stick effect; convince them that the way they've been living is just fine, and that those who would encourage them to change only want to control their lives and take what they have. It's as simple as calling said wisdom "fake news", over and over. Toss in a little insignificant truth that tickles the herd's fancy, instill a little fear & loathing, employ some politics of hate, divide-and-conquer becomes reality. No room left for wisdom.


I think this addresses the challenge up ahead. An epic battle with the mindless in the middle tugged this way and that with apposing entities vying to manipulate to to secure their own interests.

It raises the question that if you get tugged back and forth repeatedly by apposing forces does the day arrive that you rise out of ignorance and realize you are being manipulated. Or is their simply a significant percentage of the population that remains stuck in being pawns.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 19:21:44
by onlooker
And yet the world we have right now is composed of self indulgent and self interested politicians and wealthy people, I think that is the segment of the population Ghung is referring to. So a conspicuous lack of leadership. And then the most sage comment I have read on this site, is from Ibon alluding to the fact that consequences are the solution. Yet consequences involve death and suffering, so they may bring out some heroic and noble actions by people but also will bring out cruel and base actions. So, it will be a mixed bag of alliances and agendas

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 11:42:29
by Ibon
onlooker wrote: Yet consequences involve death and suffering, so they may bring out some heroic and noble actions by people but also will bring out cruel and base actions. So, it will be a mixed bag of alliances and agendas


Kind of like history. There will be more of the extremes but less mediocrity. Hard to be mediocre during THE BIG SQUEEZE.

Which cultures on the planet today have the highest percentage of mediocre citizens?

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:20:55
by onlooker
"Which cultures on the planet today have the highest percentage of mediocre citizens?"
Yes and in the context you use mediocre, it can mean different things. Like subsumed in a rather meaningless life, wallowing in shallow distractions. But it can also mean people living selfish lives unable or unwilling to sacrifice for a higher cause or others. I would say people in rich countries most embody these traits

So above all the Big Squeeze will manifest who deep down can truly channel their empathy and compassion to form a cohesive team and those who cannot.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:23:14
by Plantagenet
Ibon wrote:[
Which cultures on the planet today have the highest percentage of mediocre citizens?


Thats an interesting question.

First you have to define what a mediocre citizen is.

IMHO mediocre citizens would be non-productive citizens, i.e. criminals and able-bodied people preying on society or welching off society rather then working.

Based on those criteria, I'd say inner city neighborhoods in the US with poor educational attainment, very high crime rates, and large numbers of unemployed people on public assistance would be the worst cultures in the USA. For example, inner city St. Louis and inner city Baltimore currently have the highest murder rates in the USA, using murder as a proxy data indicator for high crime areas.

On a global basis I'd use the same criteria. There are urban areas in the EU with high crime and high welfare dependency....I'd say those areas have a lot of mediocre citizens. In countries without welfare systems you could probably just look at the crime rate. Right now worst places in the world for crime, based on the murder rate, are all in Mexico, Venezuela and Brazil, and I say those places clearly have a lot of mediocre citizens.

List_of_cities_by_murder_rate

Cheers!

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 12:55:31
by mmasters
Highest percentage of mediocre citizens I'd have to say Brazil. Better natural resources than China or India yet they can't make much of anything happen. 90% slums, no zoning laws. Rampant crime and violence. Tons of people with nothing in their heads. The only thing they have going for them is the soccer team.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 13:07:10
by onlooker
mmasters wrote:Highest percentage of mediocre citizens I'd have to say Brazil. Better natural resources than China or India yet they can't make much of anything happen. 90% slums, no zoning laws. Rampant crime and violence. Tons of people with nothing in their heads. The only thing they have going for them is the soccer team.

I would not say mediocre but abysmally corrupt as it was founded as a slave colony and you could say has continued like that to the present :shock:

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2019, 20:37:40
by Newfie
I googled “japan degrowth” and got a bunch of hits. Nothing worth posting, but there are some really wacky economist. Apparently some in Japan are looking for their salvation in manga and anamie or whatever it’s called. So many folks have moved into the city they are resilient some farm lots.

I guess that’s all possible with modern money theory, just print baby print. The idea of actually making something seems quaint.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2019, 11:38:38
by Zarquon
Newfie wrote:This repair was done without mast steps, he had to pull himself up in a bosuns chair, it was done mid-ocean approaching Patagonia, he was alone, he won the race, he is 74 years old.

There is someone who is in touch with their environment in a very special and intimate way. Someone with a tremendous willl to live.

I am in awe.


Have you seen All Is Lost?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Is_Lost