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Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 14:57:32**

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:... considering how many votes the D's get from the unions and their influence, it's not at all surprising to me that the D's won't go against the UAW.

Actually, the unions are AGAINST GM closing the US plants and firing the American factory workers.

Nonetheless, I don't see any Ds supporting Trump and denouncing GM's move to end the Volt and the other sedans, close the factories, and fire the US workers.

Cheers!

Well, maybe for someone who wants to criticize ASG for supposedly not reading a newspaper, YOU should read a newspaper. Re what you said which I highlighted in blue, for emphasis:

From three days ago, in the Detroit Free Press:

Democrats say GM gets tax cuts while workers get shafted

WASHINGTON — Congressional Democrats let loose on General Motors' decision to close plants in Michigan and Ohio on Monday, saying that the company got millions in tax breaks heralded by President Donald Trump but that they haven't saved workers.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ ... 115399002/

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 15:02:51**

asg/ennui/mos.......lets not quarrel over this.

Here's how I see this issue:

This entire tiff originated when you got off the wrong foot by misquoting me above. To paraphrase, I posted something like ...Trump is trying to save the Volt and the other sedans....

And then you quoted me in your next post as saying.....Trump is trying to save the Volt......and you left out the rest of the sentence where I said ....and the other sedans.....

And then you went into this multi-post rant about Trump only trying to save the Volt....but I didn't say that. I said Trump was trying to save the Volt and the other sedans.

Your entire set of posts is predicted on your original misquote....in other words, you didn't understand the sentence you read and so you went off on a tangent based on your lack of understanding of what you just read.

I really suggest you try to improve your reading comprehension, and one good place for your to start would be for you to read the entire sentence on the page in front of you. You aren't going to understand what you are reading if you don't read and understand entire sentences.

Just reading the first few words in a sentence isn't enough...you have to read the entire sentence all the way through or you aren't going to understand what is being discussed.

OK?

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 15:08:43**

Plantagenet wrote:But I didn't make that suggestion.

Yes you did:

I don't see any Ds supporting Trump and denouncing GM's move to end the Volt

If Trump isn't denouncing GM's move to end the Volt then why would the Ds be obligated to support him the way you think they should? So you falsely claim here that Trump is trying to protect the Volt in particular. He's not.

Since the Ds have been largely silent on this issue, that makes Trump essentially the last defender of the Volt (and the other cars as well, of course).

Everything is a partisan scorecard for you, and what you're doing here is making mental backflips in order to give Trump sort of environmental creds via serendipity.

I'd respect you better if you just copped to your partisan double-speak instead of gaslighting.

I said Trump was trying to save the Volt and the other sedans.

He's not trying to save the Volt. He's trying to save jobs and the Volt just happens to be one of the cars involved. He doesnt' care about the Volt in particular and would probably be happier if GM built cars that literally rolled coal. You're the one who keeps injecting the word "Volt" into his motives as if it's significant. It's not. It's coincidental.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 15:15:58**

I think it's time for the orderlies to confiscate Planty's devices.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 15:18:59**

GHung wrote:I think it's time for the orderlies to confiscate Planty's devices.

Damn straight. Starving Lion sounds positively rational compared to him.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 15:30:42**

Outcast_Searcher wrote:YOU should read a newspaper.

From three days ago, in the Detroit Free Press:

OK---You got me there.

I read the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and Google News and Apple News, bu† the Detroit Free Press isn't on my reading list.

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 17:08:57**

Plantagenet wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:YOU should read a newspaper.

From three days ago, in the Detroit Free Press:

OK---You got me there.

I read the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and Google News and Apple News, bu† the Detroit Free Press isn't on my reading list.

Cheers!

To be fair, I don't read the DFP either. I was just surprised to hear (re your statement) that the D's weren't criticizing GM, as it seemed to me that I'd seen that politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle had been doing so. So I did a quick Google search to check my memory/understanding and that DFP article was one of the first hits I got -- and seemed unambiguous re the position of the D's.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 17:20:13**

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I was just surprised to hear (re your statement) that the D's weren't criticizing GM, as it seemed to me that I'd seen that politicians on BOTH sides of the aisle had been doing so. So I did a quick Google search to check my memory/understanding and that DFP article was one of the first hits I got -- and seemed unambiguous re the position of the D's.

Based on the DFP article, it seems to me the Ds are spending more time attacking Trump then they are attacking GM. The Ds in the DFP article want to connect Trump's tax cut with GM's actions, when the real sleaziness is GM taking tens of billions of bailout money during the Obama administration....money intended to save US jobs.....and now GM is shutting down the factories that produce the Volt and other US sedans and killing US jobs in order to shift production to China.

Ideally, I'd like to see the Ds join with Trump in his criticism of GM, and support Trump in his efforts to put pressure on GM. But I still don't see that.

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 17:25:11**

GHung wrote:I think it's time for the orderlies to confiscate Planty's devices.

They are too busy keeping you sedated, I think.

More meds! He needs more meds!

Cheers! :lol:

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 17:48:41**

It is my understanding that the government took an ownership position in GM and got stock in return for it's "bailout" money. Then they sold those shares at a loss, the timing of which was their decision. Technically GM does not owe the government anything except some gratitude.

If we are paying them subsidies to produce pickup trucks and SUVs in defiance of all logic and the recent oil peak, then I would say we should stop doing that.

I would remind everyone that the Chevrolet Volt is NOT a battery EV, it is a plug-in hybrid vehicle, with a battery-only range of 53 miles in the latest version, and 35 miles in the original version. Recharge of the smallish battery requires 12h @ 110v and 2.3h @ 220v. The minimal electric range meant that many owners would never see any compensation in fuel savings for the added cost of the hybrid powertrain, over the average ownership period of the vehicle.

IMHO, China is welcome to it, and can probably best the latest Volt design easily.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 17:54:52**

KaiserJeep wrote:I would remind everyone that the Chevrolet Volt is NOT a battery EV, it is a plug-in hybrid vehicle, with a battery-only range of 53 miles in the latest version, and 35 miles in the original version. Recharge of the smallish battery requires 12h @ 110v and 2.3h @ 220v. The minimal electric range meant that many owners would never see any compensation in fuel savings for the added cost of the hybrid powertrain, over the average ownership period of the vehicle.

IMHO, China is welcome to it, and can probably best the latest Volt design easily.

Thats the problem.

With GM shutting down the Volt, and Ford shutting down the Fiesta, the EV and PHEV industry in the US is dying, while China and Germany are charging ahead (pun intended).

Obama once said the VOLT is the car of the future. He was clearly wrong about that, but EVs are going to be an important component of future transport. Its sad to see the US retreating from the EV arena, and allowing Germany and China to dominate.

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:13:36**

Plantagenet wrote:it seems to me the Ds are spending more time attacking Trump then they are attacking GM.

Seems justified to me.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:17:58**

Plantagenet wrote:EV and PHEV industry in the US is dying

Sure, if you disregard TESLA. Plus, there will be more full EVs to come from US automakers (including GM). It's a bad look not to have these revealed in full before killing the Volt, but they will arrive. Of course, you always fixate on the negative and hold blindspots for the positive, like the second half of this headline. So you can see it not as a retreat from EVs, but a literal doubling-down. You just have to have some patience.

Plantagenet wrote:Obama once said the VOLT is the car of the future

Technology marches on and plugin hybrids were only ever going to be a temporary stopgap. Without the Volt there will still be a few long-range plugins available for die-hards. The Honda Clarity meets it against most specs.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:20:22**

Plantagenet wrote:...............

With GM shutting down the Volt, and Ford shutting down the Fiesta, the EV and PHEV industry in the US is dying, while China and Germany are charging ahead (pun intended).

Cheers!

Not sure what the Fiesta has to do with any of this. I haven't seen an EV or HEV version, and it is a great selling car, globally. Sales well into the millions and popular in Rally. I just saw an an add about the new 2019 ST with an upgraded turbo. My daughter drove a Fiesta for several years (2011, I think) and I really liked that sporty little car. Great for mountain driving.

Anyway, I Googled "Ford Fiesta EV, HEV, and Hybrid". Didn't get squat. Please advise. And Ford has a number of new Hybrids,PHEV and electric models in the works for 2020 and beyond.

All-in push on hybrid-electrics to bring new capability and features to customers on high-volume, profitable vehicles like F-150, Mustang, Explorer, Escape and Bronco; battery electric vehicle rollout starts in 2020 with performance utility and six BEVs by 2022
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedi ... -2020.html

Again, please qualify your claims and advise.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:37:27**

asg70 wrote: there will be more full EVs to come from US automakers (including GM). It's a bad look not to have these revealed in full before killing the Volt, but they will arrive.

Excuse me if I don't share your boundless faith in GM and their good intentions--- my opinion is highly influenced by the fact that GM just killed the VOLT.

As always I always try to look at what corporations and politicians actually do rather then what they say, and what GM just did is punch a big hole in the future of their own US EV manufacturing biz.

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:48:40**

Plantagenet wrote:Excuse me if I don't share your boundless faith in GM and their good intentions

You don't have faith in anyone unless they have an R next to their name. BTW, with all your grief over the Volt, do you own one, or are you just looking for someone or something to bash as always?

Plantagenet wrote:I always try to look at what corporations and politicians actually do

Unless it's Trump, of course.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 18:57:30**

GHung wrote:Ford Fiesta...

My googling was more successful then yours.

It turns out the EV offering at Ford is called the Ford Focus electric. I must confess I've never seen a Ford Focus Electric in my life so I assumed that the Ford EV was devolved out the successful Fiesta line. Nope....the Ford EV is a modified Focus...and its disaster.

The sales number for the Focus electric clearly show its been a dismal flop.

Wikipedia tabulates the annual sales of the Ford Focus electric thusly:

Calendar year US sales
2011 8
2012 685
2013 1,738
2014 1,964
2015 1,582
2016 872
2017 1,817

------------------

Ford's EV offering is called the Ford Focus electric. Its been a dismal flop in terms of sales....no wonder no one has ever seen one of these things.....

So now that GM has zeroed out the Volt, and sales of the Ford Focus electric are dismal and worse, that leaves Tesla as the flag bearer for the US EV industry----assuming that Trump is unsuccessful at getting GM to restart production of the VOLT and the other sedans.

Cheers!

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 20:32:32**

Plantagenet wrote:
GHung wrote:Ford Fiesta...

My googling was more successful then yours.

It turns out the EV offering at Ford is called the Ford Focus electric. I must confess I've never seen a Ford Focus Electric in my life so I assumed that the Ford EV was devolved out the successful Fiesta line. Nope....the Ford EV is a modified Focus...and its disaster.

The sales number for the Focus electric clearly show its been a dismal flop.

Wikipedia tabulates the annual sales of the Ford Focus electric thusly:

Calendar year US sales
2011 8
2012 685
2013 1,738
2014 1,964
2015 1,582
2016 872
2017 1,817

------------------

Ford's EV offering is called the Ford Focus electric. Its been a dismal flop in terms of sales....no wonder no one has ever seen one of these things.....

So now that GM has zeroed out the Volt, and sales of the Ford Focus electric are dismal and worse, that leaves Tesla as the flag bearer for the US EV industry----assuming that Trump is unsuccessful at getting GM to restart production of the VOLT and the other sedans.

Cheers!

Your googling wasn't successful at all. There is no Fiesta EV/PHEV/HEV. Big fail, Planty. I was fully aware of the Ford Focus hybrid, and other models. A neighbor has the Focus hybrid and loves it. I've also seen an Escape hybrid running around here.

Posted: **Thu 29 Nov 2018, 21:28:41**

GHung wrote: I was fully aware of the Ford Focus hybrid...

Maybe .... but there was no mention of the Ford Focus Electric until I posted about the Ford Focus Electric.

--------------------------------------------------

The latest news on GM stopping production of the VOLT and other sedans is that Trump is now threatening to institute tariffs on imported cars as a way to convince GM not to shut down their domestic factories and move their production overseas.

Trump threatens GM with tariffs on imported cars

I don't think it will work, especially if the Ds don't support Trump on this, but at least Trump is trying to save those factories and those US jobs. The D support is critical because without it, GM will figure it can close its US factories and open car factories in China and then just wait until a D wins the presidency in 2020 and then the tariffs will come off.

Cheers!

Posted: **Fri 30 Nov 2018, 12:32:16**

If the government really wanted GM to keep building Volts all they have to do is order 25,000 units every year for replacements of existing government sedans. All the sudsidy vs tarriff stuff is a round about way of gettng more units in use.

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